Why the Adversary HATES the Pre-Tribulation Resurrection-Rapture

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,181
7,978
113
#1
PART I
Bible-believing Christians are well aware that there is intense hatred for the Bible doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There are probably hundreds of articles and sermons (from those who claim to be Christians) attacking this truth, even though it is clearly revealed in the Bible.

The underlying reason for this irrational hatred of something which is glorious and wonderful is because Satan – the Adversary and Enemy of God and Man – hates to see Christians having a Blessed Hope, and the sure knowledge that their salvation is supernatural, and will result in the supernatural perfection and glorification of the saints.

I. THE RESURRECTION-RAPTURE IS SOLIDLY PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE

1. “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice...unto the resurrection of life”

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

2. “I will come again and receive you unto myself”

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

3. “There shall be a resurrection of the dead... of the just”

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Acts 24:14,15)

4. “The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7,8)

5. “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [Resurrection], and we shall be changed [Rapture]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor 15:51-54)

6. “That he might present it to himself a glorious church”

That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:26,27)

7. “Who shall change our vile body... like unto his glorious body”

For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)

8. “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear”

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth...When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.(Col 3:1,4)

9. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout”

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep [died] in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [raptured] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:13-18) [Note: The Lord comes “in the air” momentarily, not to the earth as some assume]

10. “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation”

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. (1 Thess 5:9-11)

11. “Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light”

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (2 Tim 1:9,10)

12. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing”

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13,14)

13. “Shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation”

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb 9:28)

14. “Salvation ready to be revealed in the last time”

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3-5)

15. “When he shall appear, we shall be like him”

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:1-3)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,181
7,978
113
#2
PART II

II. WHY IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
There are excellent biblical reasons why the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation period.

1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture

But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:36-42)

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:10-13)

2. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, not for the redeemed Church

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Israel]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's [Israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30:6,7)

3. The righteous were always delivered from God’s wrath BEFORE it came upon the ungodly and the wicked.
A. Enoch raptured into Heaven before the Flood
B. Noah and his family placed in the Ark before the Flood
C. Lot and his family taken out of Sodom before its destruction
D. Rahab taken out of Jericho before its destruction
E. Believers to be saved from wrath, and all believers to be watchful and prayerful

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth... And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Rev 3:10; Lk 21:34-36).
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
821
113
#3
I am sad for those who don't have the...experience of hearing Him whisper to them at times: soon, soon. But I know great joy when He whispers this to me and am sad they can't relate to me on it or share in it. Not that they have no joy, I'm not saying that. And I think it's despicable when they are told they're damned because of their endtimes views because that's a different gospel than our Lord gave us.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,674
3,055
113
#4
To say that those who do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture are not Bible believers as you have here::

Bible-believing Christians are well aware that there is intense hatred for the Bible doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There are probably hundreds of articles and sermons (from those who claim to be Christians) attacking this truth, even though it is clearly revealed in the Bible.
Is a false accusation.. it is a case of a person being an accuser of the brethren... I hope one day you repent of this slander..

The blessed Hope is NOT the rapture.. The Blessed hope is salvation itself and eternal life with our LORD Jesus Christ in His perfect eternal existence..

The pre-tribulation rapture is Not supported by the scriptures.. But i will never slander those who believe in it as being people who only claim to be Christians that are supporting lies... Such a toxic decisive and unnecessary like statements go beyond what is good in fellowship between Christians who disagree on what is not a core salvation doctrine matter..
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
1,653
199
63
41
#5
2. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, not for the redeemed Church

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Israel]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)
Brother Nehemiah , this is thee issue , upon this Pre-Rapture doctrine that i cannot agree with. Due to Galatians 3:28

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

So when we are re-examining scripture upon Daniel thy people [ Israel ] a future event , this cannot be meant only towards thee unbelieving Jews nor 144,000 that have not lied & are without fault. But also include the Gentiles that have been grafted into the olive tree.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off , and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Thy people [ Israel + Gentiles Believers ] Daniel 12:1

These are the issues upon this doctrine , that make many of us shake our heads ... Did not Paul teach we are all one in Christ ???

Upon God Wrath that is stored up for thee ungodly , but thee Beast will persecute many of God people even to death.

I believe the LORD will protect , His people , as He did in times past when the plagues hit Egypt. As He Deliver Noah & Lot , Daniel , Meshach Abednego & Shadrach from the wicked.

Shalom
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
7
18
#6
The great tribulation of the saints of God is the wrath of Satan against their faith in Jesus Christ.

If you suffer with Jesus you will reign with him.

If you refuse to suffer the tribulation against the church of Jesus you will submit to the mark of the beast and shall perish.

The wrath of God occurs after the great tribulation of the saints of God, in the time of the seventh seal.

Whereas, The wrath of Satan against the saints begins with the sword of the red horse rider when the second seal is opened.

All the pre tribulation rapture doctrine is, is a teaching seducing those fearful of suffering during the great tribulation into being completely duped by Satan such that they fall away from faith in Jesus because of the suffering in Jesus name that they must confront.
As Jesus said to us who have faith in Jesus,

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

It is the desire to escape the fear of being afflicted and murdered in all nations for Jesus name’s sake that offends the believers in escape from tribulation.

The great tribulation is not unexpected for Jesus warned us that in this world we shall have tribulation. What makes the last time of tribulation great is the global extent of the persecution of the church.

The reason the persecution becomes global is because the gospel of Jesus is going global at the time of the end.

If you believe in escaping the great tribulation then you are believing in not preaching the gospel in all nations as Jesus predicted the church will.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
2,588
310
83
#7
PART I
Bible-believing Christians are well aware that there is intense hatred for the Bible doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There are probably hundreds of articles and sermons (from those who claim to be Christians) attacking this truth, even though it is clearly revealed in the Bible.


The underlying reason for this irrational hatred of something which is glorious and wonderful is because Satan – the Adversary and Enemy of God and Man – hates to see Christians having a Blessed Hope, and the sure knowledge that their salvation is supernatural, and will result in the supernatural perfection and glorification of the saints.

I. THE RESURRECTION-RAPTURE IS SOLIDLY PRESENTED IN SCRIPTURE

1. “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice...unto the resurrection of life”
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29)

2. “I will come again and receive you unto myself”
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

3. “There shall be a resurrection of the dead... of the just”
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. (Acts 24:14,15)

4. “The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ”
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7,8)

5. “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [Resurrection], and we shall be changed [Rapture]. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (1 Cor 15:51-54)

6. “That he might present it to himself a glorious church”
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (Eph 5:26,27)

7. “Who shall change our vile body... like unto his glorious body”
For our conversation [citizenship] is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Phil 3:20,21)

8. “When Christ, who is our life, shall appear”
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth...When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.(Col 3:1,4)

9. “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout”
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep [died] in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [dead]. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them [raptured] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess 4:13-18) [Note: The Lord comes “in the air” momentarily, not to the earth as some assume]

10. “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation”
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. (1 Thess 5:9-11)

11. “Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light”
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (2 Tim 1:9,10)

12. “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing”
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:13,14)

13. “Shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation”
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb 9:28)

14. “Salvation ready to be revealed in the last time”


15. “When he shall appear, we shall be like him”
.
Not one of these passages place the "rapture" before the tribulation.

The pre-trib rapture concept did not exist (as best as I can tell) until the late 1820's where it was invented at the Albury Prophesy Conferences. From there it migrated to the Powerscourt Prophesy Conferences in the early 1830's. This is where John Darby learned about it and developed all of "Dispensationalism" to justify it.

We don't have the pre-trib rapture because Dispensationalism demands it. We have Dispensationalism because the pre-trib rapture needs it.

Edward Irving was perhaps the first preacher to teach the pre-trib rapture. A couple of years later he was excommunicated because of heresy.
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
2,588
310
83
#8
PART II

II. WHY IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?
There are excellent biblical reasons why the Rapture is BEFORE the Tribulation period.


1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:36-42)

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:10-13)

2. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, not for the redeemed Church
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [Israel]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's [Israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30:6,7)

3. The righteous were always delivered from God’s wrath BEFORE it came upon the ungodly and the wicked.
A. Enoch raptured into Heaven before the Flood
B. Noah and his family placed in the Ark before the Flood
C. Lot and his family taken out of Sodom before its destruction
D. Rahab taken out of Jericho before its destruction
E. Believers to be saved from wrath, and all believers to be watchful and prayerful


Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth... And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Rev 3:10; Lk 21:34-36).


"1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture"

No, it is not.

2 Thessalonians 2
1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,
2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


Matthew 24
3. As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
4. Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you.

...
15. "So when you see standing in the holy place `the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--
...
24. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
25. See, I have told you ahead of time.

...
30. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



"2. The Tribulation is for unbelieving Jews, not for the redeemed Church"
This distinction between the church and the Jews was invented in the late 1820's or early 1830's because Mt 24 clearly contradicts the pre-trib rapture teaching. By applying Mt 24 to the Jews, and not the church, Dispensationalists can still justify their new teaching of the pre-trib rapture.


"3. The righteous were always delivered from God’s wrath BEFORE it came upon the ungodly and the wicked"

The righteous are often delivered, but that does not justify the creation of a pre-trib rapture so we don't have to go through the tribulation. Furthermore, the "tribulation" is not the time of God's wrath. God's wrath happens after the saints have gone through the tribulation.

Matthew 24
9. "Then you
(the believers in Christ) will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11. and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13. but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

...
16. then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.
18. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak.
19. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
20. Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
21. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.
22. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23. At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it.
24. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.
25. See, I have told you ahead of time.

...
27. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (This is not a "secret" rapture.)
...
30. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.
31. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
2,588
310
83
#9
"1. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture"

The early Christian church believed that Christ could come at any moment. They also believed that Christ would come at the end of the tribulation. This is because they believed they were already in the tribulation.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#10
I do "hate" the rapture doctrines! Whether pre,mid.post, or whatever other "flavors" may yet come! And, it's not those who "hope", as much. Unless there hope is in their efforts in securing even more "subscribers" to this absurdity. But, MORE towards those who have already been "beguiled" into (a) KNOWING FOR A SURETY, that THEY ARE DEFINITELY GOING TO HEAVEN! For these? There "motto" is BELIEVE!...AND BE RAPTURED! Like that's ALL that is needed! NO studying to show oneself approved! No RIGHTLY DIVIDING the Word of God! It causes me GREAT FEAR, for these people, when the GREAT AND TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD Comes to them! GREAT in its LOVE! Yet, TERRIBLE, In Its REVEALINGS! :cry:
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
684
113
#11
The problem is that placing the "rapture" in any place other than where it belongs in the 1st century is in error - you errortics keep writing the same garbage and have been since that errotic Darby invented this concocted "doctrine".
 

EarnestQ

Senior Member
Apr 28, 2016
2,588
310
83
#12
The problem is that placing the "rapture" in any place other than where it belongs in the 1st century is in error - you errortics keep writing the same garbage and have been since that errotic Darby invented this concocted "doctrine".

FWIW, Darby didn't invent the doctrine. He plagiarized it and then promoted it for 50 years in Europe and North America.

As best as I can tell, the concept was invented in the Albury Prophesy conferences held near London in the late 1820's. Much of Dispensationalism is plagiarized from their beliefs. This can be proven through their publications "Dialogs on Prophesy" published in the late 1820's. Edward Irving and Lady Powerscourt attended these meetings and in the early 1830's Lady Powerscourt established her own prophesy conferences which Irving attended. All Dispensationalists trace their origins back to these meetings.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
#13
PART I
Bible-believing Christians are well aware that there is intense hatred for the Bible doctrine of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. There are probably hundreds of articles and sermons (from those who claim to be Christians) attacking this truth, even though it is clearly revealed in the Bible.


The underlying reason for this irrational hatred of something which is glorious and wonderful is because Satan – the Adversary and Enemy of God and Man – hates to see Christians having a Blessed Hope, and the sure knowledge that their salvation is supernatural, and will result in the supernatural perfection and glorification of the saints.
I am very disappointed in you.
While I agree with you on so many things, I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
I believe that the gathering of the Saints will take place at the sounding of the seventh trump when Jesus returns.
This belief is based on my personal study of God's Word.
While the Scriptures you posted clearly teach that Jesus will return and gather the Saints, (I also believe this) they do not prove a pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
What you stated and inferred in the first paragraph is beneath you and any Child of God.
To suggest that I am not a Christian, that I only claim to be a Christian, simply because we disagree on the timing of our Lord's return is just wrong.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#14
I am very disappointed in you.
While I agree with you on so many things, I do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
I believe that the gathering of the Saints will take place at the sounding of the seventh trump when Jesus returns.
This belief is based on my personal study of God's Word.
While the Scriptures you posted clearly teach that Jesus will return and gather the Saints, (I also believe this) they do not prove a pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
What you stated and inferred in the first paragraph is beneath you and any Child of God.
To suggest that I am not a Christian, that I only claim to be a Christian, simply because we disagree on the timing of our Lord's return is just wrong.
Absolutely no one should say your salvation is dependant on your endtime beliefs. They should not say it about you, you should not say it about them, and all should learn to deal with some different interpretations of what is being read - scriptures.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#15
Brother Nehemiah , this is thee issue , upon this Pre-Rapture doctrine that i cannot agree with. Due to Galatians 3:28

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Yes, this is applicable to the Church, but the Church does not continue on earth indefinitely. There is a limit to the number of Gentiles, and once the full number of Gentiles are gathered, the Church is raptured. After that God resumes His dealings with the Jews and Israel as a nation. Please note:

ROMANS 11

25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[Israel]

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#16
ROMANS 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Israel]
That doesn't say that all natural Israel will be saved, but that all true Israel will be saved as it is written in the prophet: The deliver will turn them away from ungodliness. You have to ignore everything else that Paul wrote in Romans 9, 10 and 11, that painstakingly argues that only a remnant of natural Israel is saved, to think that all natural Israel will be saved.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,478
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#17
Yes, this is applicable to the Church, but the Church does not continue on earth indefinitely. There is a limit to the number of Gentiles, and once the full number of Gentiles are gathered, the Church is raptured. After that God resumes His dealings with the Jews and Israel as a nation. Please note:

ROMANS 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [Israel]

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
The Lord Jesus teaches against a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture, He says that He will come in great glory and power AFTER the Great Tribulation, and those who teach a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture are amongst the false prophets of the last days! Matt 24v23-31.

So maybe you want to have a re-think on your wrong teaching on the last days, for make no mistake about you will be judged accordingly. James 3v1
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#18
Not one of these passages place the "rapture" before the tribulation.
Well why don't you show us a Bible passage which places the Rapture after the tribulation? All the rest is neither here not there.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,181
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#19
2 Thessalonians 2
1. Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers,

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
This passage has caused some confusion because the modern versions say "day of the Lord" (pertaining the Great Tribulation) and the traditional versions say "day of Christ" (pertaining to the Rapture) according to their Greek texts. However, let's go with your translation and see the sequence of events.

The apostolic New Testament churches expected the Rapture to take place during their life times, since the Bible shows that it is imminent. But some in the apostolic churches were falsely claiming that the Rapture ("the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him") had already occurred, which was producing a great deal of mental anguish and alarm.

So Paul had to settle their minds by explaining to them that before the Rapture could take place two things needed to happen: (1) the great apostasy "falling away" or "rebellion") within the churches and (2) the Antichrist's arrival.

We are currently seeing the great apostasy, which means that the arrival of the Antichrist is near. But before he can take full control of the inhabitants of the earth the Church and the Holy Spirit must be "taken out of the way". And it is only AFTER he takes control that the Tribulation period will begin.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lettethwill let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2 Thess 2:7,8).
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#20
That doesn't say that all natural Israel will be saved, but that all true Israel will be saved...
Correct. According to Scripture, all BELIEVING Israel shall be saved, but that will be only one-third of the total number of Jews at that time.

8
And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
(Zech 13:8,9)