Women - speaker ?

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little_tree

Guest
#1
#1
Okej, I have a question i can´t get rid of. And I don´t know if i would now either, but i give it a chance on this forum... In the Bible there are some verses about how females should act in the assembly. In 1 Tim 2:11-14 Paul says women should not teach and not be the head of the man. Some then think that women shall be absolutely quiet in church. But in some verses later 1 Tim 3:11 he talks about how women who works in the assembly should act. But then there are some that think it is okej for women to lead a church. Also, there are women in the Bible who served their brothers and sisters in Christ, but there is not always written in which ways. So, I wonder, in which ways women can serve? What is it to teach? Is preaching teaching? To share our witness is not to teach, or? And to teach children and other women, where goes the line?
What did the women in the Bible do? I know Mary told the deciples the news when Jesus had rose from the grave, that was to testify..? The couple Aquila and Priscilla did in Act 18:26 teach/expound Apollos the way of God.
And so important, more than other - HOW DOES GOD WANT US TO LIVE?
Now, maybe it would not be so difficult if there was not so many different views in different churches and communions about this point. Don´t know how you have it in your countries, but here there are many views and different thoughts... And in this seculized country i don´t know were to stand. But Jesus told everyone of His followers to tell the world about Him in some way, right?
And of course a honorable lifestyle is a way God use, but sometimes you also need to open up your mouth. But maybe not as the one leading a whole church.
 
M

machew

Guest
#2
#2
When you look at the historical and cultural context of those verses, it would seem that women in the church at that time were mostly uneducated, could not read, and were not equipped to be in a leadership role in the church. In the culture of the time, a woman taking leadership over a man would have been offensive. And rather than causing a stumbling block for every man in the church at the time, it was better to just not allow it. Based on what Paul wrote, it would seem that Timothy was having problems with women trying to gain authority over the ordained authority that was already established in the church.

I don't believe that Paul's main point was to say that women in general throughout time should never teach and be a leader over a man in a church environment. I think Paul was more concerned about the huge distraction at the time, for most people, of having a woman lead. There also would be problems for women teaching, since most were not educated and did not have the necessary skills and experience to lead.

When reading the Bible we have to read it first with the then and there in mind, before we try to make sense of it in the here and now. We have to measure the distance between our time and theirs, and make a bridge between their time and ours. This is to make sure we are still transferring the author's intent over to our time and not some cultural norm that is no longer relevant now.

In our western culture we no longer promote the oppression of women as the cultural norm. But what can we still get out of 1 Timothy 2:11-14? I believe that Paul intent was addressing proper submission to authority, not necessarily that woman shouldn't be in places of authority. At the time, proper submission to authority would have required a general stance that women shouldn't take authority over a man. In the cultural context of his time it is true that there was an issue, but in the here and now, it is not ingrained in the culture like it was then. This makes it less of an issue.

I believe most of the issues regarding women in authority that we have today in the church, stem up from pride on both sides, whether it be a woman trying to undermine a man's authority, or a church culture trying to undermine the woman's role in their environment.


Blessings,

Machew
 
L

little_tree

Guest
#3
#3
But when Paul says:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Than he says it´s because of how the creation was made, and the order God has ordain, not because of the culture or the time?
And also the fall into sin, and that´s not either culture or time?
 
M

machew

Guest
#4
#4
little_tree said:
But when Paul says:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Than he says it´s because of how the creation was made, and the order God has ordain, not because of the culture or the time?
And also the fall into sin, and that´s not either culture or time?
Click to expand...

It does say that, but I am under the assumption that he must have meant something else other than the way many interpret it, because to interpret it in such a way as to blame women and not forgive for the deception in the garden would be completely counter to the message that Jesus preached. Jesus said that if we don't forgive, He won't forgive us.


Blessings,

Machew
 
L

little_tree

Guest
#5
#5
Yes. I think i understand your point. I think the same thing about forgivness. But can it be a point that women are in some ways weaker than men? (1 Pe 3:7) That´s why Eve were deceived?
Also look at the word in 1Co 11:3 and compare it with the other verses. Looks like God has an order about how it should be... hm.. Back to women preaching and so on, it is not so easy to understand what all means, when it´s written one thing and people live another and you want to do what´s right.

But this was interesting.
Hope to get another answear :)


 
I

Israel

Guest
#6
#6
machew said:
It does say that, but I am under the assumption that he must have meant something else other than the way many interpret it, because to interpret it in such a way as to blame women and not forgive for the deception in the garden would be completely counter to the message that Jesus preached. Jesus said that if we don't forgive, He won't forgive us.


Blessings,

Machew
Click to expand...
It does mean something else.

Genesis 5

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

The name, Adam is also used for mankind. Our help meet is the system we live by. For it was taken out of us! The religious system we are "married to" should not surpass our authority! Christianity should not be the head of the people who are married to it. It is the same for any other established system, religious or otherwise.
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#7
#7
yes i agree it has always been stated that its taken out of context yet we see also that His Word stands yesterday today and forever, paul admonishes anyone with trying to change his doctrine as anathema, scriptural reference to a womans role he mentions in a few apistles not just to the one church as has been always purported to by theologians as being they were chatter boxes back then, I beleive woman do have authority given to them to fight the devil, the part about them being preachers and teachers i find is like most preachers and teachers i listen to,male or female, i chew on the good solid food as a cow does with its cud, the bad food i just spit out altogether and leave God to deal with His house the technicalities of it all, that way my eye stays on Jesus.

hey we had lisa bevere speak the other week here, alot of good food i found as everything Lisa spoke on, God was pressing on my heart the morning of the service before i went, wrote them down in point form before hand and Lisa had practically preached them in point form in order, only by the Holy Spirit that could happen amen
 
L

lighthousejohn

Guest
#8
#8
little_tree said:
But when Paul says:
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Than he says it´s because of how the creation was made, and the order God has ordain, not because of the culture or the time?
And also the fall into sin, and that´s not either culture or time?
Click to expand...
Little_tree,

If you look at the demographics of the church today, you would find that the religous education dept of most churches would cease t exist, for the most part, if women were not allowed to teach Sunday School or to lead Bible Studies. I agree with Machew that the times have changed and are continueing to change. 2000 years ago, women were not much more than chattel. They were necessesary for procreation but were not allowed to speak with authority or power. This is why the kinsman redeemer was necessesary and Jesus said that we should care for the widows and orphans because a woman without a husband had no means of support and had to depend on the mercy of men to live by gleaning from the fields and so forth.

Unfortunately, some men and churches still take that viewpoint today. Thay use the scripture to tie their wives up in servitude and bondage. I myself still struggle with women pastors but I am open minded enough to realize that God can bless anyone with the gift of preaching and teaching. I have learned much from some of the women here on CC and I will not hinder their voice from being heard.

In Christ,
John
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#9
#9
little_tree said:
Okej, I have a question i can´t get rid of. And I don´t know if i would now either, but i give it a chance on this forum... In the Bible there are some verses about how females should act in the assembly. In 1 Tim 2:11-14 Paul says women should not teach and not be the head of the man. Some then think that women shall be absolutely quiet in church. But in some verses later 1 Tim 3:11 he talks about how women who works in the assembly should act. But then there are some that think it is okej for women to lead a church. Also, there are women in the Bible who served their brothers and sisters in Christ, but there is not always written in which ways. So, I wonder, in which ways women can serve? What is it to teach? Is preaching teaching? To share our witness is not to teach, or? And to teach children and other women, where goes the line?
What did the women in the Bible do? I know Mary told the deciples the news when Jesus had rose from the grave, that was to testify..? The couple Aquila and Priscilla did in Act 18:26 teach/expound Apollos the way of God.
And so important, more than other - HOW DOES GOD WANT US TO LIVE?
Now, maybe it would not be so difficult if there was not so many different views in different churches and communions about this point. Don´t know how you have it in your countries, but here there are many views and different thoughts... And in this seculized country i don´t know were to stand. But Jesus told everyone of His followers to tell the world about Him in some way, right?
And of course a honorable lifestyle is a way God use, but sometimes you also need to open up your mouth. But maybe not as the one leading a whole church.
Click to expand...
Female elders are ok aslong as they fulfill the requirements

you know

husband of one wife etc:)
 
G

greatkraw

Guest
#10
#10
lighthousejohn said:
Little_tree,

If you look at the demographics of the church today, you would find that the religous education dept of most churches would cease t exist, for the most part, if women were not allowed to teach Sunday School or to lead Bible Studies. I agree with Machew that the times have changed and are continueing to change. 2000 years ago, women were not much more than chattel. They were necessesary for procreation but were not allowed to speak with authority or power. This is why the kinsman redeemer was necessesary and Jesus said that we should care for the widows and orphans because a woman without a husband had no means of support and had to depend on the mercy of men to live by gleaning from the fields and so forth.

Unfortunately, some men and churches still take that viewpoint today. Thay use the scripture to tie their wives up in servitude and bondage. I myself still struggle with women pastors but I am open minded enough to realize that God can bless anyone with the gift of preaching and teaching. I have learned much from some of the women here on CC and I will not hinder their voice from being heard.

In Christ,
John
Click to expand...
there is no New Testament warrant for Sunday School

it is a heresy related to Replacement Theology
 
L

little_tree

Guest
#11
#11
Thank you for your answears!
Perhaps i got some step futher in understanding this...
I litsen to both man and women preaching, and i think if you litsen with an open ear you might hear God´s voice whether a women or man speaks. I myself have also preached in a youthgroup a couple of times. But i have struggled with this in a long time, how to do and how to use the things i have got from God... Because, it is hard to be quiet when the heart is pounding to talk about Jesus... but i still don´t want to talk in the wrong way or maybe at wrong places if there are such..!

Blessings
 
B

Brianaj

Guest
#12
#12
I have a really simple response to this question since I to have thought a lot about it. I am planning on going into ministry when I am done with college, and have thought well if I were needed to can I speak, what are my limitations, and what does the bible say.

After speaking with some people, reading, and giving this topic some meditation this is what I came up with.....

If there are not men stepping up to do the jobs or positions that they think women should'nt do then bring it on girls...someone has to lead people to Christ and if a man isn't there to step up and do it why can't a women? That's why in todays world we have women pastors and deacons...because there are just not enough godly men to do everything....

So go where God has you is what I say, and be used in whatever way he is pulling you....
We cannot put limitations on GOD and the way he will use us....
 
L

little_tree

Guest
#13
#13
Brianaj said:
I have a really simple response to this question since I to have thought a lot about it. I am planning on going into ministry when I am done with college, and have thought well if I were needed to can I speak, what are my limitations, and what does the bible say.

After speaking with some people, reading, and giving this topic some meditation this is what I came up with.....

If there are not men stepping up to do the jobs or positions that they think women should'nt do then bring it on girls...someone has to lead people to Christ and if a man isn't there to step up and do it why can't a women? That's why in todays world we have women pastors and deacons...because there are just not enough godly men to do everything....

So go where God has you is what I say, and be used in whatever way he is pulling you....
We cannot put limitations on GOD and the way he will use us....
Click to expand...


Thank you for that answear..!

: )
 
7

704champion

Guest
#14
#14
hey little tree,

there are great women all through the Holy Bible. and many of them were teachers.

Miriam was a co-leader and prophetess. Num. 12:1-2 and Mic. 6:4 then you have Priscilla who was a co-worker with Paul. Act. 18:26.

God used these women and plenty of others to deliver His Word. but the Bible clearly states that a man is to lead the home and the church. this contemporary view everyone has is what's destroying the church today. when the Bible says for the woman to submit herself to her husband, it doesn't mean to be his slave. it means she is to submit herself to the man's headship, though. and there is a difference.

when God created adam a wife, what was she called? God created adam a helper. it's not adam yelling, do this and do that!! no!!!! she is by his side through all. that doesn't mean she can't have her own time either. people are confused. they are scared to stand for what the Bible says, so they twist it around to feel safe. then, for the people who do stand behind the Word of God, they are told that they are a bunch of cavemen who are out of date. like molded bread.

well, the last time I read the Bible, it said God is the same yesterday, today and forever. so how can people defend themselves by saying the times are different?!

I urge you to pray for the guidance of God's Spirit before every study.
be patient, and wait on God's answer.

love in Christ,
blake
 
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