Women will be saved through Childbearing, if

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JohnR7

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Dec 30, 2019
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#1
"Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control" (1Timothy2:15)

In the Hebrew Language it can take up to four pen strokes to make one letter. There are four different sections to this passage. There are also four conditions for the women that they continue in faith, love, holiness w/ self control. This we can understand so we are without excuse. Yet what does this mean that a women is saved "through" childbearing? Lets go back to the beginning in Genesis:

To the serpent He said: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” " To the woman He said: “I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis3:16)

Ok, we are already going into sensory overload with this passage. Also we have what looks like two different conversations here. One with the serpent and one with the women. Yet there is a connection here between HER SEED, CHILDBIRTH & SAVED. In Genesis 38:28 we read about a SCARLET THREAD. Also we read about a Scarlet Thread in the story of Rehab the Prostitute. This Scarlet thread is the Blood Line of Jesus. If people do not read the begets in the Bible they are not going to understand this. The Bible follows the Blood line from Eve to Mary through David. We are going to see tragedy along the way. Rehab was a prostitute. Solomon was the product of adultery between David and Bathsheba after their first child died. We see prostitution and adultery in the bloodline of Jesus.

To try to make this simple Adam & Eve are the Patriarch and Matriarch of Jesus. Eve was saved and redeemed though the child she had. Women are saved though child bearing and Mary was honored to be the women that gave birth to Jesus our saviour. I wonder why Paul could not maintain some degree of purity in teaching this to Timothy. Why does he have to say and because of this women can not pastor a church?

The word of God is simple and the Word of God is infinite. We could go on and on and write many books about the different aspects of this passage. In fact we are told that: "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." (John21:25) Yet if we understand something we should be able to explain this in a way so simple a child can understand.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#2
"Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression. Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control" (1Timothy2:15)

In the Hebrew Language it can take up to four pen strokes to make one letter. There are four different sections to this passage. There are also four conditions for the women that they continue in faith, love, holiness w/ self control. This we can understand so we are without excuse. Yet what does this mean that a women is saved "through" childbearing? Lets go back to the beginning in Genesis:

To the serpent He said: "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” " To the woman He said: “I will sharply increase your pain in childbirth; in pain you will bring forth children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” (Genesis3:16)

Ok, we are already going into sensory overload with this passage. Also we have what looks like two different conversations here. One with the serpent and one with the women. Yet there is a connection here between HER SEED, CHILDBIRTH & SAVED. In Genesis 38:28 we read about a SCARLET THREAD. Also we read about a Scarlet Thread in the story of Rehab the Prostitute. This Scarlet thread is the Blood Line of Jesus. If people do not read the begets in the Bible they are not going to understand this. The Bible follows the Blood line from Eve to Mary through David. We are going to see tragedy along the way. Rehab was a prostitute. Solomon was the product of adultery between David and Bathsheba after their first child died. We see prostitution and adultery in the bloodline of Jesus.

To try to make this simple Adam & Eve are the Patriarch and Matriarch of Jesus. Eve was saved and redeemed though the child she had. Women are saved though child bearing and Mary was honored to be the women that gave birth to Jesus our saviour. I wonder why Paul could not maintain some degree of purity in teaching this to Timothy. Why does he have to say and because of this women can not pastor a church?

The word of God is simple and the Word of God is infinite. We could go on and on and write many books about the different aspects of this passage. In fact we are told that: "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." (John21:25) Yet if we understand something we should be able to explain this in a way so simple a child can understand.
Solomon was not the product of adultery. Uriah was already dead, and David had married Bathsheba. Rahab was a prostitute, but she married Salmon, and later bore Boaz. The only highly questionable union was between Judah and Tamar.

Paul doesn't say, "And because of this, women may not pastor a church"... or anything like it. Do some digging into the cultural context at Ephesus in the first century; you'll find some interesting and relevant information there.

While some commentators have suggested a "scarlet thread" through the lineage, the two scarlet threads you mentioned actually have nothing in common. One was a literal thread, the other was more likely a sash or something else large enough to be seen from 15-30 feet away at least.
 

JohnR7

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#3
Paul doesn't say,
That does indeed seem to be a key issue as to what: "Paul doesn't say" that people try to claim he said. I started at verse 15, if we go back to verse 12 Paul says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet". Verse 12 really needs it's own thread though. This thread is about women and childbirth.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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#4
That does indeed seem to be a key issue as to what: "Paul doesn't say" that people try to claim he said. I started at verse 15, if we go back to verse 12 Paul says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet". Verse 12 really needs it's own thread though. This thread is about women and childbirth.
Well, at the very least I am grateful you posted that above so that people realize the Saint Apostle Paul did in his many epistles offer his own opinion on matters pertaining to the churches he started.
"I do not permit a woman...." That is a great line in itself to show that it is not God that forbids a woman to teach, preach or prophecy. It was Paul who believed women should not be able to teach or have authority over a man.As that text shows.

However, that is in conflict with Paul's other epistles wherein he praised the women that worked side by side with him so as to deliver the Gospel. And also conflicts with his praise for women prophets.
 

JohnR7

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#5
However, that is in conflict with Paul's other epistles wherein he praised the women that worked side by side with him so as to deliver the Gospel. And also conflicts with his praise for women prophets.
There is an irony in this. Women brings a child into the world. She nurtures, raises and teaches this child. Yet a day comes when women are no longer to have any authority over men. This starts to get complicated.
 

Whispered

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#6
I think it helps to interject here that in copying the Torah there are rules. {,,,Such as, The letters, words, and paragraphs had to be counted, and the document became invalid if two letters touched each other. The middle paragraph, word and letter must correspond to those of the original document. "

Also as a woman I would say that there should be a question when we are told we shall be saved through childbirth that refers to women who choose not or cannot bear children. Is this to then say we are doomed to damnation because we are not able to be "saved" by giving birth to children?
My rule for when I read the Saint Apostle Paul's epistles, which interestingly enough are more prevalent in the new testament than are the synoptic gospels total and including with those the Book of Revelation, is, does what Paul is teaching here coincide, agree with, comport with, Jesus' teachings?
This matter of childbearing in Paul's epistle would then necessitate the query, did Jesus state this also? That childbearing saves a woman?

 

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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#7
Why does he have to say and because of this women can not pastor a church?

The word of God is simple and the Word of God is infinite. We could go on and on and write many books about the different aspects of this passage. In fact we are told that: "the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." (John21:25) Yet if we understand something we should be able to explain this in a way so simple a child can understand.
Order of headship:

"3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

Woman is no more in authority over man than man is over Christ.
 

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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#8
This thread is about women and childbirth.
Until the church re-learns what it means to 'save yourself' (see Acts 2:40) without that meaning your works earn your salvation it will be almost impossible to explain how the faithful execution of woman's God given duties to bear and raise children save them.
 

JohnR7

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#9
That childbearing saves a woman?
If you are going to look at the passage from this perspective then I think you have it backwards. The women is kept safe in the delivery of her child IF she continues in "faith, love, holiness w/ self control. World wide the infant mortality rate has dropped from 43% to 4.5%. Moses tells us: "The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation." (Numbers14:18) "showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments. " (Exodus20:6)

If you look at the free prenatal care programs they do a massive amount of testing because the women in this group are very high risk.
 

JohnR7

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#10
it will be almost impossible to explain how the faithful execution of woman's God given duties to bear and raise children save them.
This is a reference to Mary. She gave Birth to Jesus and Jesus is the one that saves us all. All of mankind. At least whosoever is willing. Jesus HAD to be born into this world. Not Just Mary. There were many generations of women between Mary and Eve. It was Eve that messed up and it was her descendant that had to save her. People want to skip over the begats but they are in the Bible for a reason. I read every word in the Bible and I ask why is this in the Bible? What is God tell us in each and every passage we read.

The Genealogy of Jesus the Messiah (Matthew Chapter 1) Why does our Bible start off with this?

1This is the genealogy a of Jesus the Messiah b the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11and Josiah the father of Jeconiah c and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
17Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.
 

JohnR7

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#11
Woman is no more in authority over man than man is over Christ.
In a literal sense the husband is to be a "slave" to his wife. "27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew20:28)

Just as Jesus went to Calvary for His Bride (The Joy set before Him) the Husband is to sacrifice himself for the sake of his wife. She maybe his helper but he is to be a servant to her.
 

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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#13
In a literal sense the husband is to be a "slave" to his wife. "27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew20:28)

Just as Jesus went to Calvary for His Bride (The Joy set before Him) the Husband is to sacrifice himself for the sake of his wife. She maybe his helper but he is to be a servant to her.
And if anybody thinks this means woman can be head over man consider that the man is to love his wife as Christ loves the church, and Christ loving the church hardly means that man is now in authority over Christ.
 

JohnR7

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#14
And if anybody thinks this means woman can be head over man consider that the man is to love his wife as Christ loves the church, and Christ loving the church hardly means that man is now in authority over Christ.
I am sorry you do not understand what I am saying. I will try to make myself more clear in the future.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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#15
Order of headship:

"3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

Woman is no more in authority over man than man is over Christ.
The NASB puts that verse as "the man is the head of a woman" (singular), strongly suggesting that the context is limited to marriage. In any case, a man is not any kind of authority over all women. Further, it is questionable whether Paul was using "head" to mean "authority" here.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#16
In a literal sense the husband is to be a "slave" to his wife. "27and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” (Matthew20:28)

Just as Jesus went to Calvary for His Bride (The Joy set before Him) the Husband is to sacrifice himself for the sake of his wife. She maybe his helper but he is to be a servant to her.
"Helper" is derived from "helpmeet" which is an unfortunate choice for ezer kenegdo; not that "helpmeet was wrong in 1611, but the word is meaningless to us today. The Hebrew term is also used of God Himself in several places. In no way does it imply that she is "under" the man's authority or lesser than him.
 

JaumeJ

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Jul 2, 2011
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#17
It has always been taught that the head of a woman is her husband. This, I believe, is to give order in a group of folks, for just as a manwil pull his donkey out of a well on the _Sabbath, so any woman is entitled by having a soul, to speak in the stead of her husband in the event he cannot.
 

Hungry

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Nov 26, 2012
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#18
Why must we complicate the obvious? God designed us (male and female) different. Although I can understand my wife’s thoughts, they will never be my thoughts. What makes perfect sense to her, often is highly illogical to me. She thinks with her heart, and I with my head. Somehow she manages to pound those square pegs into round holes, but not without an uncomfortable amount of force (usually my discomfort). In marriage we are one, however. The children have many experiences in life because of her. As much as she adds to their life, without me, there is chaos. I worked out of town for a year returning one week out of three. My time home was utter disaster. There was barely structure, or organization. If she had left instead of me, the house would have been completely organized and structured but the kids would have had less “life”.

My point is that both are needed and both have value, but both are not the same. God has designed males of every other mammal to be dominant and leaders and females to raise the offspring. Why such controversy in humans.

As far as “saved by child bearing”, you should investigate the word. It means saved, but also means made whole. Perhaps the translation could use some buffering, or the love and motherly instincts brought about by childbirth, is conducive for the Spirit, explaining the subsequent words.
 

Judges1318

Well-known member
Nov 16, 2019
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#19
Order of headship:

"3But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." - 1 Corinthians 11:3

Woman is no more in authority over man than man is over Christ.
The NASB puts that verse as "the man is the head of a woman" (singular), strongly suggesting that the context is limited to marriage. In any case, a man is not any kind of authority over all women. Further, it is questionable whether Paul was using "head" to mean "authority" here.
Here, maybe this will clear it up for you what Paul was getting at:

"11A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; b she must be quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve." - 1 Timothy 2:11-13

The reason woman is not to assume pastoral authority in the church has nothing to do with culture. It has everything to do with the ordained order of things in heaven and earth. It goes like this: God >> Christ >> man >> woman.

And, in addition to that, Paul says Eve was the one deceived, not man:

"14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. " - 1 Timothy 2:14

That's yet another reason why woman are not to be in pastoral authority in the church. And that's what Paul is getting at here:

"for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church. Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?" - 1 Corinthians 14:35-36

But let's not open that can of worms.