word of faith movement

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Dec 28, 2016
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I said...word of faith is faith in His Word.
Yep. That's what you said.

But that's neither the gist of his post you agreed with nor his belief of what WoF means, which post you agreed with him in calling others lost. He wasn't making a given statement that those who don't believe the words of Christ are lost. You really think that is all he was meaning? Think about that for a minute, his post was not making a point on something that is a given.

So believe what you want.
I understood what he meant, his recent posts prove this; If you don't believe the teachings of the WoF movement, you're lost. This is what he has meant all along.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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Some answers in green italicized font within your quote and some at the bottom!

First off, if you are not in Christ, then there is condemnation to you, and second, I never implied that if you don't have the faith that I do, that you are not saved. What I said is if you can't see the simple truth of what is written, then I question who you are of, which translates that I questioning your salvation. It is in either your ABILITY to SEE the truth of the word of faith, or your INABILITY to SEE it, NOT HOW MUCH faith one has.
I say ability, because Jesus said you shall know them by their fruit, and that those who are of the devil CANNOT HEAR God's word, which means they will not be able to see it either, but those who ARE OF God, will be able to both hear and see this truth. And I say that because, as the spirit is in us, so are we, for it is written, As Jesus is, so are we in this world.
God said His word can be used for correcting and/or reproving other, and so that is what I have been doing with the word of God.

Fruit is NOT signs and wonders, as I have already posted. It is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23) and bearing fruit for the Kingdom, i.e. sharing the gospel leading to the salvation of souls.


I don't know where you got that "all about me" thing from, but I never said or implied that either. Even as my righteousness is not my own, neither is the faith I have. I know very well WHOSE FAITH IS IN ME. But at the same time, God tells us to exercise this faith He has given us, that we might do bigger and better things, not just for ourselves, but for others. Those who have little faith, center on themselves anyway, but those who have mature, start helping other.

The gospel is about God! Not about me! You even twist it by making it about "whose faith is in me." Just drop the me! Don't say me again, for a month. Then perhaps you will see how much of your false gospel is about "me" not about God.

God has given faith to EVERY man, a measure of faith. Yes, it is indeed a gift from God, but everyone has been given a measure of it. The question is, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to be like the lazy slothful servant who did nothing but hid his master's talent in the ground? Or are you going to be like the good and faithful servants who worked with what God gave them, that they might have more at His coming or when you meet Him?
The branches in Christ that bear no fruit, God takes away. The trees that bear no fruit, God commands them to be cut down. So what do you think I'm going to do with the talent God gave me. I'm going to work with what I have, that I might gain more for Jesus' glory, NOT mine. Getting someone healed is glory and a testament to God, not myself, because I'm not the one doing the work. Jesus is.

Yes, well, I already quoted John 15. Large sections of it. Who are you to question what I am doing for God? What are you doing for God but leading people astray with your false and unbiblical doctrine!? You have no idea what I do in my life for God, or that my life is totally devoted to not just serving God, but his people. Take your condemnation elsewhere! You have no idea the years I have studied to show myself a worker approved, the hours I spend preparing sermons, teaching, and leading worship. To say nothing of community outreach. But, even if I didn't do these things, I pray a lot. God calls us to be prayer warriors. Are you a prayer warrior? I don't know, I'm just asking. Just don't assume that my first love isn't God. If you studied and understood the Bible, you would never say these poisonous things!

Why not deny what you are suffering?
Do you see denying what you are suffering, as believing or confessing a lie?
If you do, then that is one reason, among many, why you cannot be healed.
One reason why I do get healed, but not 100% of the time yet, is BECAUSE I deny or refuse to accept what I have been suffering from.
Have you not read what the scriptures say?

Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.
Luk 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Not really sure where to break in here. These 2 verses follow after the Parable of the Sower, my favourite parable. It is about bearing fruit. And we bear fruit by sharing the gospel of God, not WoF.
You have obviously not been listening to me. I got sick with Rheumatoid Arthritis in 1997, and by 1998, a bunch of my Pentecostal friends had become Word of Faith. They came to me, preached their gospel of health and wealth, and said I could be healed if I believed. Great! So they prayed over me, I claimed healing. And nothing! And then after a time had passed, they started condemning me because I wasn't healed! I didn't have enough faith, although God was my life.

Deny the pain and suffering, of severe Rheumatoid Arthritis? Yep, they told me to do that! They told me not to "claim RA, but healing." So I claimed, they told me to believe and get up and walk, but I was a still bed ridden. Unlike when Jesus told people on pallets to get up and walk, and they could because Jesus had already healed them. They didn't walk, then they were healed, they were healed and then walked. Just be grateful you do not have this disease, since you don't seem to like suffering!

So, your verses in English, in context, and what they are about.


"[FONT=&quot]“Now the parable means this: The seed is the word of God. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]12 Those along the path are the ones who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]13 Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in a time of testing fall away. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 As for the seed that fell among thorns, these are the ones who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the worries and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 But as for the seed that landed on good soil, these are the ones who, after hearing the word, cling to it with an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with steadfast endurance.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 “No one lights a lamp and then covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a lampstand so that those who come in can see the light. 17 For nothing is hidden that will not be revealed, and nothing concealed that will not be made known and brought to light. 18 So listen carefully, for whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken from him.” Luke 8:11-18

None of these verses, or any of the rest of the verses are about healing! Read the Bible, instead of reading the words of false teachers and listening to sound bite youtube videos. NO HEALING mentioned in those verses! [/FONT]



How can you have something you don't have and not have something you do?
And what shall be given or taken away?
Again, here is another law of faith.
Before you get something you must first have it, and before you can have something taken away, you must first NOT have it.
I would like to focus on the latter half of that verse because I use it to get rid of sicknesses and diseases. And yes, it is a process that for most, takes time, including myself.
I could give some personal testimonies but I would prefer to explain this law.
I would like to first point out that whatever IT is that we don't have, is not written. I would suggest that it was written that way because it is "whatsoever" you choose not to have, which would most likely be something YOU don't like.
I personally don't like sicknesses or diseases. I don't do very well with either.
Another thing I would like to point out is, just because you see or feel something in your body, doesn't mean that it is or that it is there. But even if it was, according to this law, when we reject whatsoever "IT" is, IT has to be removed, eradicated, or taken away.
So yes, deny the cursed thing's right to be in your body, without any doubt, and it will go. It has to. It is not of God, but of the devil, and if we resist the lies of the devil, and both sicknesses and diseases are lies of the devil, the devil, along with the lie has to leave or be taken away.

Denial as in lie?? Because, you are telling me to lie about the truth. God tells us to follow the truth. You are the very reason Jesus said this:

"Sighing deeply in his spirit he said, “Why does this generation look for a sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to this generation.” Mark 8:12

But the real issue is denial is LYING! Jesus tells us to worship in spirit and truth.

"God is spirit, and the people who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:24[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



You tell me to lie? Now you have really exposed the lie of the whole Word Faith movement. Show me in one places in the Bible where God tells us to lie about our condition!!



First, you took what I said out of context, which I wrote about above, and second, I would like you to show me what I took bits and pieces out of context to make what Paul calls, "the word of faith", so that it overrides everything else in the bible.
I find that it AGREES WITH everything in the bible, not the reverse.



Sorry to hear that, but do you mean like what you accused me of doing, and what you are doing to me now?
I understand you see me as trying to propagate a lie of the devil, but because of the pain you suffered at the hands of other ignorant WOFers, you won't event look at what the scriptures say that I have shown repeatedly.

I looked at the real Scriptures about what the Bible says 20 years ago. After I walked away. God is my strength, my righteousness, my comfort, my help. The Holy Spirit is my comforter, the encourager who leads me every day closer to God. Long before you misquoted a single verse.

Do you even know what context is?? It is the verses before and after in the chapter, it is the chapter, it is the book, the Testament and the whole Bible. But most of all, it is Jesus! That is context!

I am glad to hear that you turned to Jesus to be succored.


You are not the first one to try to lay a curse of sickness unto death on me, and I doubt you'll be the last, but to let you know, I already wrote of a lung disease that came on me, that I have been fighting.

A death curse! Are you kidding!


Yes indeed, are you surprised?
I don't know what it was but I certainly rejected it and commanded it to go, and thanked Jesus for removing it.
I don't know what it was, because I never went to the doctors to have it checked out, but I will tell you, I though I was going to die at first.
Yup, lost faith in God for a little bit, but then got it back.
But to answer some question you might have-
Do I still have symptoms of the disease?
Some days yes, and some days no. It depends on how hard I go at it.
Do I still have the disease?
Absolutely NOT!!!
How can I say that?
Well first off, because I don't have it, just like I told you, and according to the word of God, whatsoever I don't have, will eventually be taken from me.
And like all the other things I got healed of and from, the symptoms WILL eventually leave.
It may take some time like some of the other things did, but I KNOW it will go, because I ask, I also know what the will of God is concerning sicknesses and diseases, I also know what faith is and how it works, and because I don't have it.
I hope I covered all the condemning questions you might have.
But to answer another one.
I WILL NOT DIE NOR BE OVERCOME by any sickness or disease, because again, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, and if that's what He came to do, then that is what is done to all the works of the devil in me, even as it is written, by whose stripes I WAS healed, it is already done, I just have to, accept Jesus' work on the cross of/for baring and taking the cures of the law of sin and death in His own body on the cross for me, and reject the devil's.
But if I do nothing or hope God will do something, I KNOW NOTHING will happen.
I think you can see that, even though I still have symptoms, I do not have a victim mentality, but more of a militant one.
That is because the word of God is my sword, and Jesus is my strength to resist the devil, by fight back.


Ok! Isa. 53:5d Totally out of context. Read the whole book of Isaiah. It is about deliverance from sin. Isaiah was sinful, Israel was sinful, but a Saviour who would deliver them from the stripes of sin sickness would come, whose name is Jesus. I wrote a lot about this before, perhaps I will repost it for you. The most out of context verse in the whole Bible for WoFers!

No need to pray that I be like you. It's NOT going to happen.
As I have said many times in the past, I can't not know what I know.
Or to put it another way, if I cannot not see this truth, how is it that you can or are able to?
And to set another record straight, Jesus is my everything.
So, here is my favourite verse that God gave me after I came out of the depression and pain of RA, through the Psalms and better meds.

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." Romans 5:3-5

This is the true word God gave me. And if you want to look at the word "suffering" or "tribulation" or "affliction" it is persecution! Of course! But it is also pain, loss, death, and real life suffering that occurred in the first century, without even modern medicine. Θλιφις or thliphis, is according to Bauer (BDAG)

1. Trouble that inflicts distress, oppression, affliction, tribulation.
2. Inward experience of distress, affliction, trouble.

I was just praying, and now I know you too suffer from some affliction, by this post. And you have tried to deny it for years. Sometimes you can live the lie, and sometimes the truth breaks through.

The truth is that we live in a fallen world. There is no perfection, no assurance or promise of complete healing, or wealth in this life time. Now, sometimes people are healed. I do not deny that. Sometimes that is God's will. But for some, like me, I have learned more about God, grown closer to God, learned how to serve him better through suffering than in all the years I was healthy. And one day, we will see Christ face to face, (1 Cor. 13:12) and then we will all be healed of every Θλιφις, including the loss of a loved one, and mental illnesses, and of course, physical illnesses, poverty, and abuse, too!

So, I pray God will open up the truth of the Bible to you. I pray he will totally disabuse you of this horrific misuse of the Word of God. And that you will grow in character, as the above verse says! I pray that you will come to a deeper understanding of the love of God, as you walk in the Spirit of truth, not the spirit of lies and denial.

I also pray you will go to the doctor and get a diagnosis and get help. It could be something as simple as asthma, because that comes and goes. I have asthma, except for the forest fire smoke, which affected everyone in western Canada at 15/10 AQI for 2 months, I have been fine for years. Oh, right, I did get allergy shots for it, and I do take meds. But, it could be something more serious, which could be fixed, which in your denial you are missing getting help for. That was my problem with RA. I did not get on good meds early on, and the disease became more severe. Old treatment protocols. I thank God for doctors and modern medicine that gave me back my life!
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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Yep. That's what you said.

But that's neither the gist of his post you agreed with nor his belief of what WoF means, which post you agreed with him in calling others lost. He wasn't making a given statement that those who don't believe the words of Christ are lost. You really think that is all he was meaning? Think about that for a minute, his post was not making a point on something that is a given.



I understood what he meant, his recent posts prove this; If you don't believe the teachings of the WoF movement, you're lost. This is what he has meant all along.
Frankly I haven't read subsequent posts. Have been on and off all day, and his posts are long. Very busy until now.

I wasn't as I am now until 2010 when I came face to face with dying. And I knew I hadn't fulfilled my destiny. The last thing I wanted was to face the Lord with a lukewarm faith. And I knew how it was when first born again. I needed that fire back.

We are overcomers. Not fatalists. Not sure what that debate was with you and EG because I didn't read. So I don't know what you think on this. Or even EG.

But, what I see is we take life Head on and face whatever the enemy throws at us. And we learn how to walk in the Victory of Jesus. What Paul speaks about in running the race. I believe he was speaking of overcoming death.

And i I firmly fully believe in Sonship. Not sheep.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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What I learned about WOF comes directly from me belonging to WOF churches for over 20 years, working at TBN on the prayer ph lines, attending a Rhema church, attending annual Kenneth Copeland conventions, listening to hundreds of WOF tapes and reading hundreds of WOF books. So, you want to challenge my knowledge about what WOF teaches?
You are correct in your assessment of WOF. Here is a summation by GotQuestions. org

Question: "Is the Word of Faith movement biblical?"

Answer:
Word of Faith teaching is decidedly unbiblical. It is not a denomination and does not have a formal organization or hierarchy. Instead, it is a movement that is heavily influenced by a number of high-profile pastors and teachers such as Kenneth Hagin, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Paul and Jan Crouch, and Fred Price.

The Word of Faith movement grew out of the Pentecostal movement in the late 20th century. Its founder was E. W. Kenyon, who studied the metaphysical New Thought teachings of Phineas Quimby. Mind science (where "name it and claim it" originated) was combined with Pentecostalism, resulting in a peculiar mix of orthodox Christianity and mysticism. Kenneth Hagin, in turn, studied under E. W. Kenyon and made the Word of Faith movement what it is today. Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God's sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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Hi stonesoffire

I love word studies!

My point...I can see your point with capitalizing. It makes a distinction.
Me too!
stonesoffire;3426035​ said:
The written Word is compared to a knife, looking at the Greek.

The Word from His mouth is the saber sword.

Have you seen this lightbearer?
A couple different Greek words are translated sword in the KJV. Here is one place in which Machaira is used.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and efficient, and sharper (than) every two–edged sword, even penetrating (to) the division both of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrows, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart;

Is that one of the verses you had in mind?

The other that I am aware of is rhomphaia. Are any of these verses the ones you were thinking of?


So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


(Rev 19:15,21; 2:15,16)

John also shared this through Christ.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(Joh 12:47-48 KJV)

Do you see the connection stonesoffire?
 
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Jan 6, 2018
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Now can you quote what the Bible says about faith and the power of His Word?
How about you quote a WOF teacher quoting the Bible and then him or her teaching what that Bible passage is actually saying instead of twisting its meaning?
 

Angela53510

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Jan 24, 2011
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Well, feel free then, doesn't bother me.
But I don't follow those who teach WOF, I suppose I would have to say, I lead it.
I certainly am not ashamed to say I believe in WOF, nor do I care in the lease to be called or labeled a WOFer.
As for believing that I am a little god, I believe what is written.

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Explain the above verses to me please.
I expect your knowledge of Hebrew is as vast as your knowledge of Greek, right? As in "non-existent."

If you are claiming to be "a god" a là Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and others, then that is the definition of blasphemy! Only Jesus is God.

I guess that is where the WoF get off claiming that their words can speak things into existence. Because if they are gods, then they would be able to.

What a horrific lie of the devil! (Wait, I keep saying that!) In fact, of all the egregious errors in the WoF, this has to top the list. Healing on demand is bad. Wealth on demand is worse. But thinking you are a little god? Utter blasphemy! And so out of context.

"The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" John 10:33-36
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[/FONT]

First, what is Jesus talking about here? Well, he is quoting Psalm 82:6-7 in the OT.

"I thought, ‘You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.’
7 Yet you will die like mortals;
you will fall like all the other rulers.”"
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Why was Jesus quoting this verse? Because the Jews had told him they were going to stone him for blasphemy. What is blasphemy to the Jew? It is claiming to be YHVH when you are not!

But, Jesus was! He was the great I AM. He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58

He was saying, as the Psalmist says, that you people who think you are sons of God, or gods, WIL DIE LIKE MORTALS. In other words, they are NOT gods!

Such a simple thing, found in one place in the Bible (including the quote) and an entire false doctrine based on it. Bad, bad exegetics resulting in blasphemy.

That is what you are talking! You are studying the words of deceivers, who do not even have a clue what constitutes sound doctrine, or proper exegesis!
 

Waggles

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Sep 21, 2017
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13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. [avarice, wealth]
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luke 16:

[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Re: Hi stonesoffire

Me too! A couple different Greek words are translated sword in the KJV. Here is one place in which Machaira is used.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and efficient, and sharper (than) every two–edged sword, even penetrating (to) the division both of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrows, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart;

Is that one of the verses you had in mind?

The other that I am aware of is rhomphaia. Are any of these verses the ones you were thinking of?


So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


(Rev 19:15,21; 2:15,16)

John also shared this through Christ.

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(Joh 12:47-48 KJV)

Do you see the connection stonesoffire?

Yes, those are the Greek words. You jogged my memory. :) I was thinking it was "word" that held those definitions. It was sword, huh? :) won't forget it. Am not sure if I still have that study. Will have to go through the topics I've done.

Id rather fight a battle with the saber sword and on a horse. Lol



Now, connection, I looked and I see both arevtwo edged dividing Spirit and soul. Not sure if this is what you mean, but didn't see that before. I need to investigate that. :)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I expect your knowledge of Hebrew is as vast as your knowledge of Greek, right? As in "non-existent."

If you are claiming to be "a god" a là Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and others, then that is the definition of blasphemy! Only Jesus is God.

I guess that is where the WoF get off claiming that their words can speak things into existence. Because if they are gods, then they would be able to.

What a horrific lie of the devil! (Wait, I keep saying that!) In fact, of all the egregious errors in the WoF, this has to top the list. Healing on demand is bad. Wealth on demand is worse. But thinking you are a little god? Utter blasphemy! And so out of context.

"The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" John 10:33-36




First, what is Jesus talking about here? Well, he is quoting Psalm 82:6-7 in the OT.

"I thought, ‘You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.’
7 Yet you will die like mortals;
you will fall like all the other rulers.”"


Why was Jesus quoting this verse? Because the Jews had told him they were going to stone him for blasphemy. What is blasphemy to the Jew? It is claiming to be YHVH when you are not!

But, Jesus was! He was the great I AM. He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58

He was saying, as the Psalmist says, that you people who think you are sons of God, or gods, WIL DIE LIKE MORTALS. In other words, they are NOT gods!

Such a simple thing, found in one place in the Bible (including the quote) and an entire false doctrine based on it. Bad, bad exegetics resulting in blasphemy.

That is what you are talking! You are studying the words of deceivers, who do not even have a clue what constitutes sound doctrine, or proper exegesis!
It might be simpler than that Angela. Words have power to create. We see it many different ways, and it's been proven even over plant life. You have not read about this? In this we can act as God does in creating.
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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How about you quote a WOF teacher quoting the Bible and then him or her teaching what that Bible passage is actually saying instead of twisting its meaning?
How about you pointing out where I twisted something and I'll discuss it with you.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Hebrew to English:

“My decree is: ‘You are elohim [gods, judges], sons of the Most High all of you. 7 Nevertheless, you will die like mortals; like any prince, you will fall.’”
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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First, what is Jesus talking about here? Well, he is quoting Psalm 82:6-7 in the OT.

"I thought, ‘You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.’
7 Yet you will die like mortals;
you will fall like all the other rulers.
What translation is that? "I thought" is not in the Hebrew, that is why I ask. The word there is amar. It means to say, speak, utter.

Interestingly it is GOD speaking there through the psalmist. The way we know this is by the word "I". So GOD said you (we) are elohim (gods), sons of the MOST HIGH.

We should through the Faith believe GOD right?

Why was Jesus quoting this verse? Because the Jews had told him they were going to stone him for blasphemy. What is blasphemy to the Jew? It is claiming to be YHVH when you are not!

But, Jesus was! He was the great I AM. He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58
If he (GOD) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;(Joh 10:35 KJV)

Are you saying we should break scripture?

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; For it is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure.
(2Co 3:5 KJV)
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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It might be simpler than that Angela. Words have power to create. We see it many different ways, and it's been proven even over plant life. You have not read about this? In this we can act as God does in creating.
LOGOS is an interesting word with a lot of history in the time of Christ for the Greeks. It was no coincidence that John was given it to use to describe Christ prior to HIS incarnation.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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It might be simpler than that Angela. Words have power to create. We see it many different ways, and it's been proven even over plant life. You have not read about this? In this we can act as God does in creating.

Source please? I am an avid gardener, indoors and out, ornamental flowers, trees and vegetables. Never heard this anywhere, except from you. (45 years gardening myself, another 15 years helping my mother). To say nothing of all the gardening sites I am a member of.

No, words do not have power to create, unless you are God!

I was thinking over my last post, in response to Know1 about how we are NOT gods. And that is the foundational lie of WoF.

Any group that tries to claim the Bible says they are gods, and therefore have the power to “create” is a foundation of blasphemy.

Feel free to post some actual Scriptures, and read my exegetical response to you claim about what the Greek says about the sword, which you didn’t even bother to post.

Your whole philosphy is becoming lazy. Just throw out the word “Greek” and the matter is sealed. Although you do not know Greek.

And just to clarify, Hebrew and Greek words do not create, anymore than English, French, German, or any other modern or ancient language.

God creates. He “bara” creates out of nothing. Anything we create are just words.


What a sad, impoverished and blasphemous doctrine, based not on the Word, but sound bites pulled out of context. Well, enough. People are brainwashed, don’t have a clue how to read the Bible with understanding, and won’t even read the Bible in context when posted. There is no helping you. You believe in a false gospel. I’m not commenting on your salvation, but this is not the right road to God.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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It might be simpler than that Angela. Words have power to create. We see it many different ways, and it's been proven even over plant life. You have not read about this? In this we can act as God does in creating.

So what have you created lately while acting as God?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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For many years the teaching and preaching many have gotten has been up to a certain point. Should we ever stop learning? no.
What IMO happens to believers is we think we have it all now in the learning the basics department. So we actually stay right there not allowing more seeds of the Word of God to take root and grow in us. Our pride is our foundation, not Jesus.

satan is constantly there to steal the Word from us and he uses many things in the world and in our flesh to do this. Discouragement about prayers not answered., about pain and sickness coming on us and our loved ones., about ruined marriages or other relationships., about jobs and bills and lacks we have experienced or are experiencing.

So what we do is we don't persist in the Word and in the faith. We are discouraged and tired and depressed., we stop looking at Jesus as the Healer and lifter of our heads and start to think like this;

well, that faith moving mountains stuff isn't real. that Psalm 91 stuff can't be true because 1000 have fallen at my side on earth and 10,000 and more on my right hand and it HAS come "neigh unto me" So I'm not going to believe the Word is literal., it's figurative so He isn't going to protect...guide... teach and secure me cause if He didn't do it for them., He certainly won't do it for me"

If He doesn't do it for that little baby who is innocent., He sure isn't going to do it for me who is guilty of sinning where as that baby is totally innocent. (looking according to the flesh not according to God's grace IN Christ who gives us not because we deserve it but because of Jesus)

So right there the devil has robbed the believer of his inheritance by causing their eyes to get off of the Word and on to themselves and other people and horrors of the world and the flesh. Even when SPECIFICALLY the Bible tells us and warns us not to judge according to ourselves or others. That there is a way that seems right unto a man but those ways are the ways of death... not life.

We are in a battle but Jesus has won it already. We are now to hold the ground He leveled for us and we do that by faith. Then satan has to flee because then we have properly resisted his lies with the truth of God's Word and the testimony of the the grace through faith like we did when we first got saved. But many Christians don't know what those many promises are and the gifts given IN Christ when they got saved.

Many are walking out according to the old manner of life where they were taught you get what you are willing to give. No., grace gives us what we don't deserve because that is the gift Jesus died and paid for us to have. Grace teaches us how to live soberly., righteously and Godly in this present world. God has given us such great and precious promises in Christ but we won't believe them and walk them out. Many believers are trying to GET what Jesus has already given.

So when we fail to acquire those things promised in the Bible, we think God's word didn't really mean what it said. Then satan has won again like he did in the garden when Adam had all he needed but believed the lie satan told that he and Eve lacked.
Sorry, I was busy replying to someone else, and I am going to go for now, but I will reply to your posts, hopefully by tomorrow if I have the time.
Blessings to you ma'am and your family.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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What translation is that? "I thought" is not in the Hebrew, that is why I ask. The word there is amar. It means to say, speak, utter.

Interestingly it is GOD speaking there through the psalmist. The way we know this is by the word "I". So GOD said you (we) are elohim (gods), sons of the MOST HIGH.

We should through the Faith believe GOD right?

If he (GOD) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;(Joh 10:35 KJV)

Are you saying we should break scripture?

Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; For it is HE that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure.
(2Co 3:5 KJV)
I expect your knowledge of Hebrew is as vast as your knowledge of Greek, right? As in "non-existent."

If you are claiming to be "a god" a là Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and others, then that is the definition of blasphemy! Only Jesus is God.

I guess that is where the WoF get off claiming that their words can speak things into existence. Because if they are gods, then they would be able to.

What a horrific lie of the devil! (Wait, I keep saying that!) In fact, of all the egregious errors in the WoF, this has to top the list. Healing on demand is bad. Wealth on demand is worse. But thinking you are a little god? Utter blasphemy! And so out of context.

"The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" John 10:33-36




First, what is Jesus talking about here? Well, he is quoting Psalm 82:6-7 in the OT.

"I thought, ‘You are gods;
all of you are sons of the Most High.’
7 Yet you will die like mortals;
you will fall like all the other rulers.”"


Why was Jesus quoting this verse? Because the Jews had told him they were going to stone him for blasphemy. What is blasphemy to the Jew? It is claiming to be YHVH when you are not!

But, Jesus was! He was the great I AM. He said, "Before Abraham was, I am" John 8:58

He was saying, as the Psalmist says, that you people who think you are sons of God, or gods, WIL DIE LIKE MORTALS. In other words, they are NOT gods!

Such a simple thing, found in one place in the Bible (including the quote) and an entire false doctrine based on it. Bad, bad exegetics resulting in blasphemy.

That is what you are talking! You are studying the words of deceivers, who do not even have a clue what constitutes sound doctrine, or proper exegesis!

Once again, I will post what I said about how out of context you are. Jesus did not say ”you are gods” he was quoting the OT as to the fact that HE was God. You are not a god. Jesus didn’t say anyone was a god. He is God, that’s it. Again, bad hermeneutics to use one verse (quoting the OT at that!) to make a doctrine, and not just a doctrine, but the entire foundation of the WoF. Because, if you words are creating out of nothing, bara, then you would have to be a god. But, you are not! Nor any of us. Shades of the New Age movement! And that is the difference between WoF and the Pentecostal Movement. Pentecostals are totally orthodox on their Christology, and Anthropology, and if you don’t have orthodoxy in those 2 areas, you are not Christian~


I will agree with your comment on amar in Psalm 82:6. There was a lot of discussions about it in the commentaries I read. I went with this translation, because NET is the one I am using now, generally. I can see there are some issues. The NET has a full notes version, with the decisions for why they went with each word. I don’t have it yet, it would be interesting to see their reasons. I guess I should have gone with a different translation, closer to the Hebrew!
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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So what have you created lately while acting as God?
I speak many things Preacher but most important my children. You don't?

Almost left this slide because I didn't notice. As God? No. Sons. Speaking for God.