Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
9,642
1,855
113
#81
When a post begins with (some variant of) “the Bible doesn’t mean what it says”, I can’t help being a bit skeptical of what follows.
So, you do not believe that verse 32's "TILL ALL shall have taken place" somehow does not include what things that verse 24 had already just spoken of (among other things the entire passage/context also covers)?




I'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying... Or perhaps you meant that you didn't read the rest of the post to try to ascertain the point being made therein? Just wondering. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
9,642
1,855
113
#82
Thank you for your support.

What I'm trying to say is, will it be the Gentiles who make the right noises and wake up Israel with a great crowd of voices, so that they don't end up lost?

Maybe my thoughts are not the same as the prophecy, maybe God has some other plan, but I don't see it now, I don't understand it.
I'll try to get back to this post to address your question a bit more thoroughly, later today (possibly tomorrow)... as I have some time-consuming tasks to tend to ATM, and don't have time to type up as thorough a response as I'd like (for it to make sense), presently.

Thanks! = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
9,642
1,855
113
#83
you conveniently left out that God is gonna kill 2/3rds of Israel as well lol. oh well.
Real quick, I'm just going to place this old post of mine (not sure if you saw it when I originally posted it):


[quoting old post]

Zec 13:8 - And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

Zec 13:9 - And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Regarding this passage...

[quoting from commentary]

Zechariah 13:8-9. There is a very misleading idea among many students of prophecy as if the statement of Romans 11:26, “all Israel shall be saved,” meant that all the Jews will receive the blessing and the glory on that coming day of salvation. Some of the evil systems, like the Russell cult (International Bible Student Association), go so far as to teach that there will be a resurrection of all the ungodly Jews of past generations for a second chance. This passage silences these unscriptural theories. The promise of restoration and glory belongs to the godly, the believing and repenting remnant. The mass of Jews, who call themselves “Reform Jews,” who in reality are infidels, because they deny the Word of God and have completely discarded the faith in a coming Messiah, will be cut off. The third part (the remnant) only will be saved."

--Gaebelein, Commentary on Zechariah 13 (at BibleHub)

[end quoting]


There are a number of "UNTIL / TILL" passages that factor into this... including "blindness [/a hardening]... UNTIL" (re: Israel);
Those [many] of Israel will be among the first to come to faith in Christ following "our Rapture" (our Rapture being a PRIMARY impetus that helps turn many to Christ in faith)

[end quoting old post]


___________


Over and out for the time being, folks! Have a great day... till we meet here again. = D
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
8,762
1,606
113
#84
@TheDivineWatermark

Regarding that commentary, Reformed Jews can repent of their sins and dead works and put their faith in Jesus also. I have heard that some of the less 'Orthodox' are more open to the Gospel.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
480
83
#85
2 Corinthians
10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
1,606
755
113
#86
When a post begins with (some variant of) “the Bible doesn’t mean what it says”, I can’t help being a bit skeptical of what follows.

Notice the person that started the thread has not been back for discussion...
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
9,642
1,855
113
#87
@TheDivineWatermark

Regarding that commentary, Reformed Jews can repent of their sins and dead works and put their faith in Jesus also. I have heard that some of the less 'Orthodox' are more open to the Gospel.
Of course.

But the subject that the writer of that commentary was covering, was the matter regarding "who" (of Israel) will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom age... and he means to say (as the part I bolded says directly), "The promise of restoration and glory belongs to the godly, the believing and repenting remnant." IOW, only by means of faith in Christ (believing on Him and changing their minds to thus agree that He is indeed their promised Messiah) will those of Israel enter (NO "unbelievers"--whether Jew or Gentile--will enter the MK age. Simply being "Jewish" [/of the nation of Israel] will not suffice.)

During the future, specific, limited time-period (7 yrs; commonly called the Tribulation Period), God will be sending to certain people (not 100% of people) "strong delusion SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (that is, DURING that future time-period); and God knows exactly who it is that will have already hardened their hearts to the Truth, so it is to those that He will "SEND strong delusion SO THAT..."; But in this 2Th2 context (both chpts 1 and 2) Paul is CONTRASTING the two opposite "beliefs" that people will be coming to, in that future time-period (that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture," when they are IN the Trib yrs), and 2Th2:10-12 that I laid out above is one of those, which Paul is contrasting to the ones who will instead come to believe the Truth;

Again, when the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "in that day" are used in the same contexts (in close proximity, as they are here in these 2 chpts also), they are referring to the same time-period.




Hope that makes a little more sense, in the context of what the writer was talking about, specifically. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
9,642
1,855
113
#88
So, you do not believe that verse 32's "TILL ALL shall have taken place" somehow does not include what things that verse 24 had already just spoken of (among other things the entire passage/context also covers)?
Please pardon my "double negative" in that sentence above. lol

I think I transitioned my thought mid-composition, and then upon a hasty proof-reading before posting, somehow overlooked the two "not" words, whereas only one was needed to convey what I actually was intending. Oops!

I do hope you grasped my intended meaning. = D

I'm just trying to make sense of what you are saying... Or perhaps you meant that you didn't read the rest of the post to try to ascertain the point being made therein? Just wondering. = )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
9,642
1,855
113
#89
Thank you for your support.

What I'm trying to say is, will it be the Gentiles who make the right noises and wake up Israel with a great crowd of voices, so that they don't end up lost?
Hi soberxp,
My apologies for getting back to this so late. I had several people (IRL) that needed my immediate attention (for a stretch of a few days), so I was unable to get back to CC as soon as I had hoped. Please forgive me.


You do ask a very good question, and I want to make several points that touch on this.

For starters, if you don't mind, please review an old post I'd made some time back--esp re "the Olive Tree" and what it speaks to--The Arminianist incorrectly believes this is a "lose-you-salvation" context; whereas the Calvinist incorrectly assumes a change (within Rom9-11) from speaking of individual salvation to then be speaking of nations...

... whereas I believe it is more correct to view the context / passage this way (see post at link):

Post #103 - https://christianchat.com/threads/s...ay-from-dispensationalism.204242/post-4783980


If you could read that post first, that will save me a bit of typing, before I go on further to cover a few more points that I'd like to, on this matter (re your question). Thanks!

Maybe my thoughts are not the same as the prophecy, maybe God has some other plan, but I don't see it now, I don't understand it.
 

IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
114
67
28
#90
For those who label me "anti-Semitic" for not embracing Israel as Bible prophecy, read it from a Jew.

"The relatively new concept of Zionism began only about one hundred years ago and since that time Torah-true Jewry has steadfastly opposed the Zionist ideology. This struggle is rooted in two convictions:

1. Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. We are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine Redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching.

2. Zionism has not only denied our fundamental belief in Heavenly Redemption it has also created a pseudo-Judaism which views the essence of our identity to be a secular nationalism. Accordingly, Zionism and the Israeli state have consistently endeavored, via persuasion and coercion, to replace a Divine and Torah-centered understanding of our peoplehood with an armed materialism.

True Torah Jews is dedicated to informing the world and in particular the American public and politicians that not all Jews support the ideology of the Zionist state called "Israel". In fact, a great number of Orthodox Jews view the ideology of that state as diametrically opposed to the teachings of traditional Judaism." https://www.truetorahjews.org/mission

Keep in mind that Canaan is a type of heaven and there is even a hymn that begins "To Canaan's land I'm on my way, Where the soul never dies." The reason it is a type is explained in this link - https://biblehub.com/sermons/pub/the_ancient_canaan_a_type_of_heaven.htm

Was the promise of the land to Israel an unconditional promise? Not according to the scriptures -

"Now, as you see, I am going the way of all mortals. You know in your heart of hearts, all of you, that nothing the Lord your God promised you has failed to come true, not one word of it. But the same Lord God who has kept his word to you to such good effect can equally bring every kind of evil on you, until he has rooted you out from this good land which he has given you. If you violate the covenant which the Lord your God has laid upon you and go and serve other gods and worship them, then the Lord’s anger will be roused against you and the good land he has given you will soon see you no more." (Josh 23:14-16, REB)

"When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said to him, 'I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will make you exceedingly numerous.'” (Gen 17:1-2, NRSV) "be blameless" is a condition

To base the idea of Israel being restored to the land on the word "everlasting", which in Hebrew is H5769 עוֹלָם `owlam (o-lawm') n-m is weak for the word is not very precise, being translated in so many ways in the KJV: "alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end)." The Brown-Driver-Briggs defines the word as -

"1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity"

That which is everlasting, based on grace not obedience or works is given to us by Paul - "Thus Abraham 'believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.' So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “'In you shall all the nations be blessed.' So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith... And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (Gal 3:6-9, 29 RSV)

Keep in mind what Abraham was looking forward to - "By faith he stayed for a time in the land he had been promised, as in a foreign land, living in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked forward to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God." (Heb 11:9-10, NRSV)
 

IsaiahA

Active member
Jan 24, 2023
114
67
28
#91
It is important to keep in mind that the word "church" is an ecclesiastical word not found in the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible. In a literal translation the words are rendered "assembly" or "congregation". God's people in both testaments are referred to as assembly or congregation. In the past you find men of God referring to the church in the OT as well as the NT. I don't know if I posted the following in this forum or not, so if I have I apologize for repetition.

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)

Keep in mind, the same exact word can be used in the very same verse with two different meanings - "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." (Matt 8:22, KJV)

But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” (Rom 9:6-7 RSV)

For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God. (Rom 2:28-29 RSV)

But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God. (Gal 6:14-16 RSV)
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
1,606
755
113
#94
It is important to keep in mind that the word "church" is an ecclesiastical word not found in the Hebrew or Greek of the Bible. In a literal translation the words are rendered "assembly" or "congregation". God's people in both testaments are referred to as assembly or congregation. In the past you find men of God referring to the church in the OT as well as the NT.

Replacement Theology is false doctrine, period.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
1,606
755
113
#95
Which ones? Why do some convert to Christianity? When did this blindness start?

Well, from what Romans 11 says, I would say when ministry began to the Gentiles in the NT, because it says it will end when the time of the Gentiles is done.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
2,419
922
113
#96
Well, from what Romans 11 says, I would say when ministry began to the Gentiles in the NT, because it says it will end when the time of the Gentiles is done.

Why have some converted/repented become Chrisitans over all those years?
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
1,606
755
113
#98
Why have some converted/repented become Chrisitans over all those years?

Think our brother got to it before me. Sorry, keeping an eye on the weather here, calling for tornadoes today. If the alarm sounds I'm heading for safety so my answers may be short ones.