's' no such thing as human freewill

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Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#1
The doctrine of human freewill is an affront to God, it is an affront which He is very merciful and long suffering about. If it were true that human beings had freewill and the ability to follow through on their choice to do what is right there would not have been the need for God to send His only Son to earth to die a shameful death.
Jesus came for to set us FREE, it is therefore an affront to say now that we were already free and could choose to do right.


The belief in human freewill is idolatry and that of the highest order.

That will offend many, aye many good brethren and sisteren that I admire and on a forum like this whose posts I like.

We read in the OT about the times of revival that occurred during the reign of good kings like Jehoshaphat, Josiah and Hezekiah and under prophets like Elijah and Elisha but then we read the sad footnote after each of them "but the high places were not removed" and we know that the sin of Jereboam the son of Nebat was never taken away.

No apostle ever speaks about their choosing God or of following Him of their own freewill. Imagine them opening their epistles with "Thanks be unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen to follow of our own freewill" Always it is God who chose us of His own free grace.

To suppose that we chose God is to suppose that some good thing dwelled in us that enabled us to make that choice.

Paul says we were slaves to sin, in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe but Jesus has set us FREE that we may now become servants of God and of His righteousness. The picture is of the Jews when they were slaves in Egypt, will you say you were free as to whether or not you could sin? you were bound to sin, you had no choice. And because you were bound to sin you were also bound to death, you have no choice, you must die.

And death is not just laying down and croaking. Death the bible says has become our shepherd. We must so order our days and each hour of the day defending ourselves against death, we must make sure we do not starve or become naked and without shelter.

Only Jesus can set us FREE and this He has done, Now you can discover HIS will for your life and His will is good, perfect. But if you fall back to following your own will, your own choices, why then you will fall back into bondage once more.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
1,381
948
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#2
The doctrine of human freewill is an affront to God, it is an affront which He is very merciful and long suffering about. If it were true that human beings had freewill and the ability to follow through on their choice to do what is right there would not have been the need for God to send His only Son to earth to die a shameful death.
Jesus came for to set us FREE, it is therefore an affront to say now that we were already free and could choose to do right.


The belief in human freewill is idolatry and that of the highest order.

That will offend many, aye many good brethren and sisteren that I admire and on a forum like this whose posts I like.

We read in the OT about the times of revival that occurred during the reign of good kings like Jehoshaphat, Josiah and Hezekiah and under prophets like Elijah and Elisha but then we read the sad footnote after each of them "but the high places were not removed" and we know that the sin of Jereboam the son of Nebat was never taken away.

No apostle ever speaks about their choosing God or of following Him of their own freewill. Imagine them opening their epistles with "Thanks be unto God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen to follow of our own freewill" Always it is God who chose us of His own free grace.

To suppose that we chose God is to suppose that some good thing dwelled in us that enabled us to make that choice.

Paul says we were slaves to sin, in bondage to the elementary spirits of the universe but Jesus has set us FREE that we may now become servants of God and of His righteousness. The picture is of the Jews when they were slaves in Egypt, will you say you were free as to whether or not you could sin? you were bound to sin, you had no choice. And because you were bound to sin you were also bound to death, you have no choice, you must die.

And death is not just laying down and croaking. Death the bible says has become our shepherd. We must so order our days and each hour of the day defending ourselves against death, we must make sure we do not starve or become naked and without shelter.

Only Jesus can set us FREE and this He has done, Now you can discover HIS will for your life and His will is good, perfect. But if you fall back to following your own will, your own choices, why then you will fall back into bondage once more.
It depends on what is meant by "free". God holds us responsible for every word and every deed of our lives. Now if we have no choice in the matter, God's judgement is not fair. However, the will of mankind follows the desire of his heart. That's where the problem arises. God told Israel that His commandments were not too hard for them. Yet Israel disobeyed continually. That is because the human heart has no desire to obey God; the opposite is true. So while God gave free will to Adam, and He did not change that, sinners are free only to follow the desires of their hearts.

The Bible is not our shepherd. I don't know where you get that from. Lord Jesus is the great Shepherd of the sheep. He is the Word of God from the beginning. It's good to know the Book of the Lord. But that is useless if we do not know the Lord of the Book
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,185
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#4
Man's will is constrained by many factors, and as such, I prefer the term "self will" :)

Man's will in opposition to God is the problem.

Thank God He gives us new desires! :D
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,470
913
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London
#5
It depends on what is meant by "free". God holds us responsible for every word and every deed of our lives. Now if we have no choice in the matter, God's judgement is not fair. However, the will of mankind follows the desire of his heart. That's where the problem arises. God told Israel that His commandments were not too hard for them. Yet Israel disobeyed continually. That is because the human heart has no desire to obey God; the opposite is true. So while God gave free will to Adam, and He did not change that, sinners are free only to follow the desires of their hearts.

The Bible is not our shepherd. I don't know where you get that from. Lord Jesus is the great Shepherd of the sheep. He is the Word of God from the beginning. It's good to know the Book of the Lord. But that is useless if we do not know the Lord of the Book
Well what does the whole world mean by freewill? if you have done any evangelism you will know that the usual response is "if God gave me freewill He can't complain if I choose to sin" You are saying the same thing in an inverted way. The doctrine of freewill puts the blame for sin squarely upon God.

Adam and Eve did not have freewill, they did have a choice and they were free so long as they stayed within the bounds of God's will.

A fish may swim freely so long as he stays within the watery bounds that God has set him in, if he can be enticed out of his watery home he is no longer free, he will die.

Choice is not freewill for we did not have any part in deciding the options to be offered, nor do we have any say in what consequences or penalty should be applied to us if we choose unwisely. The choice is obey God and live, be free, be blest and happy and that is GOD'S will. But if we choose to disobey we shall surely die, dead men do not have freewill. And no man chooses to die.

Adam and Eve were under the law of sin and death.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,470
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London
#6
Man's will is constrained by many factors, and as such, I prefer the term "self will" :)

Man's will in opposition to God is the problem.

Thank God He gives us new desires! :D
Yo ... we do have our will, but it is not free ... until Jesus sets us free.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#7
Since God gave mankind free will how could that be "an affront to God"?
Where did God give man this freewill "I give unto you freewill" the term freewill appears but 2 or 3 times in the whole scripture and in each case is linked to giving of offerings, God does not generally demand back gifts which He has given.

God says obey Me and live, if you disobey you will die, if you sin you will die. This is through all the scriptures, that is not freewill.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,470
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London
#9
It depends on what is meant by "free". God holds us responsible for every word and every deed of our lives. Now if we have no choice in the matter, God's judgement is not fair. However, the will of mankind follows the desire of his heart. That's where the problem arises. God told Israel that His commandments were not too hard for them. Yet Israel disobeyed continually. That is because the human heart has no desire to obey God; the opposite is true. So while God gave free will to Adam, and He did not change that, sinners are free only to follow the desires of their hearts.

The Bible is not our shepherd. I don't know where you get that from. Lord Jesus is the great Shepherd of the sheep. He is the Word of God from the beginning. It's good to know the Book of the Lord. But that is useless if we do not know the Lord of the Book
I did not say the bible has become our shepherd Jesus is our great Shepherd, He is not Shepherd to goats.

Sheeps do not generally have freewill, goats as a rule follow their own will.

Of God's sheep the bible says "all we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned each one to his own way" that is to say they followed their own will ... it led them into bondage.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,669
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#10
God says obey Me and live, if you disobey you will die, if you sin you will die. This is through all the scriptures, that is not freewill.
How is that not free will? Obedience is a choice, and so is disobedience. We see that in Genesis 2 and 3.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,448
812
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#11
The doctrine of human freewill is an affront to God, it is an affront which He is very merciful and long suffering about. If it were true that human beings had freewill and the ability to follow through on their choice to do what is right there would not have been the need for God to send His only Son to earth to die a shameful death.
Jesus came for to set us FREE, it is therefore an affront to say now that we were already free and could choose to do right.
This seems to be illogical to me. We couldn't afford to pay for sin, so it has nothing to do with choosing to be saved or not, we were incapable of saving ourselves.

On the other hand We can choose to receive the salvation that is freely given to us or conversely to reject it. If you are incapable of receiving or rejecting it then how could God's judgement on those who reject it be righteous?
 
Jun 14, 2021
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18
#12
Adam and Eve did not have freewill, they did have a choice and they were free so long as they stayed within the bounds of God's will.
how would you describe the difference of free will and choice
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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#13
How is that not free will? Obedience is a choice, and so is disobedience. We see that in Genesis 2 and 3.
Because we do not choose the options, we do not even get to choose not to choose, we must choose.

We do not have a say in what the consequences of each option will be either.

If man had freewill he would say "ok God I choose to disobey but I refuse to die"
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
1,470
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#14
This seems to be illogical to me. We couldn't afford to pay for sin, so it has nothing to do with choosing to be saved or not, we were incapable of saving ourselves.

On the other hand We can choose to receive the salvation that is freely given to us or conversely to reject it. If you are incapable of receiving or rejecting it then how could God's judgement on those who reject it be righteous?
If we had freewill we would be capable of saving ourselves.

We can't of ourselves, by our own will, choose to b saved.

First we need to be given the choice. The command [and it is a command] to "choose ye this day who you will serve" [notice that word serve] that command did not come to every man, it only came to God's chosen people. The Red Indians of that generation did not get the choice.

Secondly although we are commanded to choose we are not able to complete the contract, as you yourself say we are incapable.

"Repent and be saved" is a command and God makes it happen just like He made light to shine when He commanded. When Jesus shouted to Lazarus in the grave to "come forth" what say did Lazarus have in the matter? what freedom of will?

We are just as dead and stinking as Lazarus was, the command comes to LIVE and we do live. See the preacher does not go out alone, we only hear the preacher's voice and it may come to us as "please if you don't mind awfully will you be saved today?" But the Holy Spirit who backs up the preachers doesn't talk like that, God is not an English gentleman.

We must be made ALIVE before we can choose to be save.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,470
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#15
How is that not free will? Obedience is a choice, and so is disobedience. We see that in Genesis 2 and 3.
Adam and Eve had the choice but we do not.

We are born in sin and shapen in iniquity, we sin, we are bound to sin, sin is our nature. All the freewill in the world cannot stop us from sinning.

So we must die, we die, we are bound to it. Death has become the shepherd of mankind, staying alive is our daily pre-occupation.

Thank God He has sent His Son to save us and to set us FREE. Hallelujah.

We are born again says Jesus "not by the will of man nor by the will of the flesh but by the will of God"

So why do folks insist it was by their own freewill?
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
3,074
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#16
If we had freewill we would be capable of saving ourselves.

We can't of ourselves, by our own will, choose to b saved.

First we need to be given the choice. The command [and it is a command] to "choose ye this day who you will serve" [notice that word serve] that command did not come to every man, it only came to God's chosen people. The Red Indians of that generation did not get the choice.

Secondly although we are commanded to choose we are not able to complete the contract, as you yourself say we are incapable.

"Repent and be saved" is a command and God makes it happen just like He made light to shine when He commanded. When Jesus shouted to Lazarus in the grave to "come forth" what say did Lazarus have in the matter? what freedom of will?

We are just as dead and stinking as Lazarus was, the command comes to LIVE and we do live. See the preacher does not go out alone, we only hear the preacher's voice and it may come to us as "please if you don't mind awfully will you be saved today?" But the Holy Spirit who backs up the preachers doesn't talk like that, God is not an English gentleman.

We must be made ALIVE before we can choose to be save.
You are playing with semantics at an attempt to be profound. At first we were created to serve. Because that wasn’t enough for man, we were “fired”. Then after several years of man serving his own desires, he called out Abram. That lineage ended up in Egypt. God called out Moses to liberate the seed of Abraham and initiated a covenant to serve Him. They broke that covenant. God sent His Son to initiate the final covenant. We are no longer His people following the Law. His offer extended to all humans. The offer isn’t to serve Him. The offer is to be an extension of Him. The branches grafted to the Vine. We are the physical Body of Christ. We are saved because Christ is eternal and we are in Christ. The flesh is dead and the spirit is connected to Almighty God. We have a choice to accept the gift on His terms. We are no longer individual. We are One. When most people argue freewill, it is in opposition to predestination. Let’s rename it if it brings clarity. No will is “free”. It usually costs somebody, something. We do have a choice to either serve our flesh, the dying, hormonal instinctive meat suit, or to become One with the Creator, sharing the inheritance of His Son when we are made new.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,470
913
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London
#17
You are playing with semantics at an attempt to be profound. At first we were created to serve. Because that wasn’t enough for man, we were “fired”. Then after several years of man serving his own desires, he called out Abram. That lineage ended up in Egypt. God called out Moses to liberate the seed of Abraham and initiated a covenant to serve Him. They broke that covenant. God sent His Son to initiate the final covenant. We are no longer His people following the Law. His offer extended to all humans. The offer isn’t to serve Him. The offer is to be an extension of Him. The branches grafted to the Vine. We are the physical Body of Christ. We are saved because Christ is eternal and we are in Christ. The flesh is dead and the spirit is connected to Almighty God. We have a choice to accept the gift on His terms. We are no longer individual. We are One. When most people argue freewill, it is in opposition to predestination. Let’s rename it if it brings clarity. No will is “free”. It usually costs somebody, something. We do have a choice to either serve our flesh, the dying, hormonal instinctive meat suit, or to become One with the Creator, sharing the inheritance of His Son when we are made new.
I am not playing, I believe the doctrine of human freewill acts like a massive choc upon the progress of evangelism and is a deadly poison in the body of Christ.

Your post if you will pardon me is contradictory in places. You say man was created to serve then chose to serve his own desires, isn't that exactly what I am talking about?

Then you say we are called to be an extension of God Himself He being the Vine we the branches in such a case the branches have no life of their own, no will of their own, the life, the will is in the Vine.

In point of fact I don't believe man is primarily created to serve but for fellowship, it was always intended that man should be the dwelling place of God.

Yes you are right the freewill doctrine is in opposition to the doctrines of Election and Predestination, well which of these doctrines are bible? there is no doctrine of human freewill in the bible. The doctrine of human freewill was developed to counter Calvin.

Now I don't mind anybody wishing to counter Calvin, I have serious objections about him myself, but to throw out the precious doctrines of predestination and election on account of Calvin's boo boo is wrong and foolish.

You outline the case yourself in stark detail we either live as one with God through Christ. this is God's will or we wither and die pursuing our own "freewill."

I appeal to you therefore brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

This is not freewill but FREEDOM this is finding what we are created for in the first place, this is being that person we always wanted to be.

In short it is being like Jesus.

No, no, I am not playing.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
5,448
812
113
#18
If we had freewill we would be capable of saving ourselves.

We can't of ourselves, by our own will, choose to b saved.
This is not logical. If I am drowning I can't save myself even if I wanted to. If someone throws me a life preserver I still need to grab it, that is my free will. I completely reject your premise.

We were incapable of saving ourselves, not because we didn't have freewill but because we were sinful. God demanded a sinless offering, no one was worthy. Jesus paid the price for us, however we have the freewill to receive his offering or to reject it.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
3,074
1,040
113
#19
I am not playing, I believe the doctrine of human freewill acts like a massive choc upon the progress of evangelism and is a deadly poison in the body of Christ.

Your post if you will pardon me is contradictory in places. You say man was created to serve then chose to serve his own desires, isn't that exactly what I am talking about?

Then you say we are called to be an extension of God Himself He being the Vine we the branches in such a case the branches have no life of their own, no will of their own, the life, the will is in the Vine.

In point of fact I don't believe man is primarily created to serve but for fellowship, it was always intended that man should be the dwelling place of God.

Yes you are right the freewill doctrine is in opposition to the doctrines of Election and Predestination, well which of these doctrines are bible? there is no doctrine of human freewill in the bible. The doctrine of human freewill was developed to counter Calvin.

Now I don't mind anybody wishing to counter Calvin, I have serious objections about him myself, but to throw out the precious doctrines of predestination and election on account of Calvin's boo boo is wrong and foolish.

You outline the case yourself in stark detail we either live as one with God through Christ. this is God's will or we wither and die pursuing our own "freewill."

I appeal to you therefore brethren by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

This is not freewill but FREEDOM this is finding what we are created for in the first place, this is being that person we always wanted to be.

In short it is being like Jesus.

No, no, I am not playing.
According to Genesis 2:15, we were created to serve, but were given freedom of choice, obey or die. Believe what you want. Your arguments are illogical and scripture must be taken completely out of context to even come close to what you suggest.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
1,470
913
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London
#20
According to Genesis 2:15, we were created to serve, but were given freedom of choice, obey or die. Believe what you want. Your arguments are illogical and scripture must be taken completely out of context to even come close to what you suggest.
Adam and Eve had choice YOU do not.

You were born in sin and shapen in iniquity, you have a sin nature. Sin holds you bondage and you will sin and all the supposed freewill cannot stop you from sinning. Because of sin you must die. All the supposed freewill in the world cannot stop you from dying.

Thank God for His mercy in sending His Son Jesus to save you from this tyranny and this He has done.

And you did not choose Him He chose you.