Abortion on Demand Lights Trade Center Pink

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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
1,887
113
#41
I don’t agree with you, Maxwel.

Denying the power of words and rhetoric is a dead end.

What kind of rhetoric is being used by us, the pro life supporters as of today? We’re using a rhetoric which is easy to dismiss for the pro choice movement. We haven’t been able to make society see abortion from the children’s point of view, but they have done good on making this a question about women’s rights. How could they do that? The answer is rhetoric.

Rejoicing in Evil


People don't kill babies because they've never heard a good argument.

People kill babies because THEY WANT TO KILL BABIES.

The problem isn't a lack of good arguments;
the problem is a nation that has turned away from God,
where the people rejoice in doing evil.

Pro 2:12 delivering you from the way of evil, from men of perverted speech,
Pro 2:13 who forsake the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness,
Pro 2:14 who rejoice in doing evil and delight in the perverseness of evil,




We don't have a nation of people waiting around for a better argument for doing good.

We have a nation of people who actually REJOICE in doing evil... they prefer darkness, and goodness sickens them.

...
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
1,887
113
#42
Final Thought Here:

Misidentifying the Problem

If Jennie-Mae can save a baby through rhetoric, then I'm completely on her side.
If she can save a baby, and a murder, through a skillful argument, then God bless her.

My point was NOT that we shouldn't use a skillful argument to do good, if in fact we ARE able to do that.
We should always use our gifts and talents to do good.

The point I was making was that we shouldn't misidentify the problem.

The problem is one of sin, not of logic.
We have a problem of deep, penetrating, vile, and egregious sin in our nation.
It's so bad that Billy Graham once said, "If God doesn't judge America, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."

We need to properly identify the problem, so we can apply the correct solution.
We need the right wrench for the right bolt.

If American can be saved, it will be saved by the preaching of the gospel.
If America can be saved, it will need a spiritual solution, because the problem is a spiritual problem.


The Rational Train of Thought


Let's think about it rationally:
How do you convince a person to stop doing a wrong thing, when THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE?
If they don't care about right and wrong, then it doesn't matter if you DO prove a thing is wrong.
THAT is the problem.
It would not matter if you prove abortion is wrong; people will still just do it because they want to do it.
It's a problem of sin.

It is futile using rhetoric to prove a thing is evil...
if a person is happy doing evil.

Proving abortion is wrong will have no affect on people who WANT to do wrong.


Final Questions

A. Are there some people who still have enough conscience they are capable of hearing, who would benefit from explanations and rhetoric?
Sure.
We should do whatever we can to reach those people.

B. If we reach this minority of people who still have a conscience, and convince them to do right, could that save some lives?
Sure.
We should always try to reach people, and do good, in whatever ways we can.

C. If we seek this minority of people who actually care about doing right, and we convince them to do right, will it change the laws or the culture?
No.
It won't change a thing on the macro level.
Our nation is full of people who WANT to do evil, and don't actually care about right and wrong.
So we'll still be a nation that callously murders babies on a tremendous scale.

D. If the churches turn back to their spiritual weapons, like prayer, and preaching of the gospel, is there any hope of saving our country and changing our culture?
Yes.
Our country may already be too far gone; I really don't know.
But it's at least possible for spiritual change to happen across a nation.
It's possible.


Conclusion:
1. We should always do whatever we can to reach people, and turn them toward God, and exhort them to do right.. inasmuch as we can.
2. However, if we can prove, through logic and rhetoric, that abortion is wrong, it still won't affect most people... because most people WANT to do wrong.
3. The primary problem is a spiritual problem: people simply WANT to do evil. For a spiritual problem we must rely on spiritual solutions, like prayer and preaching of the gospel
4. If we think a human solution like rhetoric, will solve a spiritual problem like willful sin, then we're really applying the wrong solution to the problem... and it's not going to work. A few people will listen and be affected, but using rhetoric to prove a thing is wrong will not affect a whole nation of people who WANT to do wrong. It's like putting out a fire by throwing more fire on it.


I won't be posting in this thread again.
God bless everyone.

...
 
M

Miri

Guest
#43
Ive been reading about this too.

How any thinking, educated society can kill a perfectly healthy
viable baby for any reason, is beyond me.

I assume anyone now wanting a late term abortion will just travel to
New York? If so then New York is indeed lost it will become “the Herod”
of its time.

One question - What about staff who don’t agree can they refuse to abort,
a full term baby? Or will they be penalised and struck off?
 
J

Jennie-Mae

Guest
#44
Final Thought Here:

Misidentifying the Problem

If Jennie-Mae can save a baby through rhetoric, then I'm completely on her side.
If she can save a baby, and a murder, through a skillful argument, then God bless her.

My point was NOT that we shouldn't use a skillful argument to do good, if in fact we ARE able to do that.
We should always use our gifts and talents to do good.

The point I was making was that we shouldn't misidentify the problem.

The problem is one of sin, not of logic.
We have a problem of deep, penetrating, vile, and egregious sin in our nation.
It's so bad that Billy Graham once said, "If God doesn't judge America, he'll have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah."

We need to properly identify the problem, so we can apply the correct solution.
We need the right wrench for the right bolt.

If American can be saved, it will be saved by the preaching of the gospel.
If America can be saved, it will need a spiritual solution, because the problem is a spiritual problem.


The Rational Train of Thought

Let's think about it rationally:
How do you convince a person to stop doing a wrong thing, when THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT WRONG IN THE FIRST PLACE?
If they don't care about right and wrong, then it doesn't matter if you DO prove a thing is wrong.
THAT is the problem.
It would not matter if you prove abortion is wrong; people will still just do it because they want to do it.
It's a problem of sin.

It is futile using rhetoric to prove a thing is evil...
if a person is happy doing evil.

Proving abortion is wrong will have no affect on people who WANT to do wrong.


Final Questions

A. Are there some people who still have enough conscience they are capable of hearing, who would benefit from explanations and rhetoric?
Sure.
We should do whatever we can to reach those people.

B. If we reach this minority of people who still have a conscience, and convince them to do right, could that save some lives?
Sure.
We should always try to reach people, and do good, in whatever ways we can.

C. If we seek this minority of people who actually care about doing right, and we convince them to do right, will it change the laws or the culture?
No.
It won't change a thing on the macro level.
Our nation is full of people who WANT to do evil, and don't actually care about right and wrong.
So we'll still be a nation that callously murders babies on a tremendous scale.

D. If the churches turn back to their spiritual weapons, like prayer, and preaching of the gospel, is there any hope of saving our country and changing our culture?
Yes.
Our country may already be too far gone; I really don't know.
But it's at least possible for spiritual change to happen across a nation.
It's possible.


Conclusion:
1. We should always do whatever we can to reach people, and turn them toward God, and exhort them to do right.. inasmuch as we can.
2. However, if we can prove, through logic and rhetoric, that abortion is wrong, it still won't affect most people... because most people WANT to do wrong.
3. The primary problem is a spiritual problem: people simply WANT to do evil. For a spiritual problem we must rely on spiritual solutions, like prayer and preaching of the gospel
4. If we think a human solution like rhetoric, will solve a spiritual problem like willful sin, then we're really applying the wrong solution to the problem... and it's not going to work. A few people will listen and be affected, but using rhetoric to prove a thing is wrong will not affect a whole nation of people who WANT to do wrong. It's like putting out a fire by throwing more fire on it.


I won't be posting in this thread again.
God bless everyone.

...
How’s your method working so far?
 

Alertandawake

Senior Member
Aug 20, 2017
436
94
28
#45
This is truly sad. So if you translate abortion on demand, really what is being said is infant sacrifice on demand. So we have now both infant sacrifice and the act to be celebrated. Society has now gone even lower. If ever there was a time period that could compare the days of Noah and the days of Lot, then this is the time period.

This madness has to come to an end, it cannot go on like this for much longer. There will come a point when enough is enough, it is just a matter of time.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#46
The pro choice people have made their case properly.
Why would say this?

First you say its the rhetoric and now you say they have made a proper case.

Do you understand what rhetoric is?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#47
The problem is one of sin, not of logic.
EXACTLY, all one has to do to see this is look at countries that have based their policies on subjective moral reasoning and you will see

the blood bath of their history.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
#48
The heart of God breaks...

https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/new-york-state-senate-passes-expansive-abortion-bill/


Possibly the saddest day in America. Sin is celebrated. Heartbreaking.


View attachment 193446
AMEN.....one of the saddest days I might add.....you know....some of the most tragic words I have ever read in the bible are directed at the HINDERMOST of the NATIONS, the LADY of the KINGDOMS.......

God said......SHE knew God in TRUTH and DEPARTED, WE would have healed HER, but SHE WOULD NOT BE HEALED............

These proverbial STRAWS will eventually break the Camel's back.....and when they DO........it will be time for the nation to be judged......that time is close at hand and make no mistake....God will make short order of his work!!
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,371
113
#49
I read an article that said --->NY women have aborted almost 400 out of every 1000 babies...............that is 40%, and this is before the law passed.........I find it interesting that women which have abortions have higher cancer rates.....it is blatant murder and they WILL all answer in the day of judgment.......
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,256
4,739
113
#50
I want to add another point.


There ARE women going to abortion clinics who still have a conscience but are feeling desperate and confused...
for these women, words can help.

There are women who've had an abortion, and their conscience has torn them apart...
for these women, words can help, and God's spirit can heal.

In my post above, I wasn't talking about these women.
I was talking about the women, and the men also, who have no conscience at all.
These seem to be the people writing our laws, and directing our culture.
These seem to be the people in majority.

For these people, these people with no conscience, words will never move a heart that cannot be moved by the blood of the innocent.

..
How’s your method working so far?

Actually one of the best methods I've seen,I can't recall the name of the organization,but they let a woman see their baby and hear the heartbeat. They travel in a motorhome and I believe they do it for free. They've had much success with changing womens minds. I wish I could recall the name...
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,256
4,739
113
#51
My sister shared this on FB I thought it was very interesting...

Would you consider abortion in any of the following four situations?
1. There's a preacher & his wife who are very, very poor. They already have 14 children. She then learns that she is pregnant with the 15th. They are living in poverty. Due to their poverty, would you recommend she get an abortion?
2. The father is sick with syphilis, the mother has TB. They have four children. The first is blind, the second is deaf, the third is deaf, & the fourth has TB. She then finds out that she is pregnant again. Would you recommend an abortion?
3. A white man raped a 13-year-old black girl & she got pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider abortion?
4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She is not married. Her fiancé is not the father of the baby & he is very upset. Would you consider abortion?
If you had recommended abortion, what would have been the results?
1. In the first case, you would have killed John Wesley, one of the great evangelists of the 19th century.
2. In the second case, you would have killed Beethoven.
3. In the third case, you would have killed Ethel Waters, the great black gospel singer who sang with the Billy Graham crusades.
4. If you said yes to the fourth case, you would have sanctioned the murder of Jesus Christ!
God has a special plan for each person no matter the circumstances of how they were conceived. He has a way of turning something that seems terrible into something beautiful
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,926
3,346
113
#52
How’s your method working so far?
I don't see it as a method but rather as a call. A call for Christians to cease using carnal means and rather call upon God in repentance, just as the Israelites did when under bondage to their enemies and were delivered.

Examples...

"Also when the Sidonians, the Amalekites and the Maonites oppressed you, you cried out to Me, and I delivered you from their hands. (Judges 10:12 NASB)

Then they cried out to the LORD in their trouble; He delivered them out of their distresses. (Psalm 107:6 NASB)
 
M

Miri

Guest
#53
I could have been an aborted baby if I had been born a year later.

My birth mother had schizophrenia the first three babies she had, were
all taken off her and placed in care. I was the forth born a year before
abortion was permitted.
 
J

Jennie-Mae

Guest
#54
Why would say this?

First you say its the rhetoric and now you say they have made a proper case.

Do you understand what rhetoric is?
Okay, let’s pretend that I don’t understand what rhetoric is, nor how one is making a case.

Could you explain to me the contradiction between rhetoric and making a proper case?

The outcome of a case, or anything, really, is likely to be dependent on, amongst other factors, what kind of rhetoric being displayed. Would you not agree? What else could explain why Democrats has been elected president on several occasions? What about Roe vs Wade? By your logic that must have been a proper case as well, hence the well known fact that it has been influencing the abortion question for decades. Or is it possible, that rhetorical skills are playing a major part when decisions are made?
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
17,256
4,739
113
#55
Okay, let’s pretend that I don’t understand what rhetoric is, nor how one is making a case.

Could you explain to me the contradiction between rhetoric and making a proper case?

The outcome of a case, or anything, really, is likely to be dependent on, amongst other factors, what kind of rhetoric being displayed. Would you not agree? What else could explain why Democrats has been elected president on several occasions? What about Roe vs Wade? By your logic that must have been a proper case as well, hence the well known fact that it has been influencing the abortion question for decades. Or is it possible, that rhetorical skills are playing a major part when decisions are made?
Not trying to butt in,but what do mean by making the case. What rhetoric should the pro-life side be using? As I said,I use as many facts as possible when I talk on abortion. But would that change a heart? In the end it is a sin issue and I don't know how far logic will reach a person.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,926
3,346
113
#56
I could have been an aborted baby if I had been born a year later.

My birth mother had schizophrenia the first three babies she had, were
all taken off her and placed in care. I was the forth born a year before
abortion was permitted.
Same here, I was the result of a one night stop-over from my mom's ex-husband's beguilement. Fortunately as a single mom she decided to keep me and not even put me up for adoption.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#57
Okay, let’s pretend that I don’t understand what rhetoric is, nor how one is making a case.

Could you explain to me the contradiction between rhetoric and making a proper case?

The outcome of a case, or anything, really, is likely to be dependent on, amongst other factors, what kind of rhetoric being displayed. Would you not agree? What else could explain why Democrats has been elected president on several occasions? What about Roe vs Wade? By your logic that must have been a proper case as well, hence the well known fact that it has been influencing the abortion question for decades. Or is it possible, that rhetorical skills are playing a major part when decisions are made?


One....
I am stating that the reasons this evil prevails, abortion, is far more complex than the quality of either sides rhetoric on the topic,
people who support abortion have already been convinced that there is a subject morality, that is where the argument lies.

Two......
Rhetoric is about persuading, one can use rhetoric either way, it can rhetoric based on facts or based on emotional appeal.....see Julius Caesar by Shakespeare

A proper case is built upon developing a logical sequence starting with a premise, through inductive or deductive logical reasoning to a strong valid conclusion

That is the problem, the mainstream media does not promote facts

Three....
Evil resides in high places, hard to break through it, need more than good rhetoric and even a proper case

Hence, Roe v. Wade passed not based on either, it passed because those sold out to evil have no logic or moral compass, plain and simple, they serve their master Satan
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#58
Not trying to butt in,but what do mean by making the case. What rhetoric should the pro-life side be using? As I said,I use as many facts as possible when I talk on abortion. But would that change a heart? In the end it is a sin issue and I don't know how far logic will reach a person.
You can butt in LOL

The pro life movement needs to use good logical reasoning, rhetoric can have good logical reasoning then it is making a proper case:)

I think Ben Shapiro does a good job using science and morality to defend pro life position, anything by him on this issue is really worth listening to.


 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,170
6,576
113
#59
When satan, wickedness and evil get a foothold they are NEVER Satisfied.

When those who commit deviant sexual practices and relationships became legal to marry in one state it snowballed to all states and federally.

When recreational mind altering drugs became legal in one state, it is snowballing to many others.

When government sanctioned and encouraged gambling became legal in one state it snowballed to all states.

When government sanctioned and cheered infanticide became legal in one state it will happen in many others as well.

Evil has no bottom to insatiable lusts. It's stomach can never be full.

Vermont Bill Would Make Legalized Abortion Up to Birth a Constitutional Right
STATE MICAIAH BILGER JAN 23, 2019 | 1:26PM MONTPELIER, VERMONT




Vermont politicians are following in the footsteps of New York and pushing a radical bill to legalize abortion for basically any reason up to birth.

The bill, introduced Wednesday in the state House, would recognize abortion as a “fundamental human right” and ensure that the government does not deny, restrict or infringe upon a woman’s “right” to abort her unborn baby.
Vermont pro-life leaders warned that the legislation would allow unborn babies to be aborted, without restriction, up to birth.
Pro-abortion state Reps. Ann Pugh, D-South Burlington, and Maxine Grad, D-Moretown, are the lead sponsors, but 89 other lawmakers also have signed on as co-sponsors, according to the Vermont Digger. Even Republican Gov. Phil Scott said he supports the radical pro-abortion bill, according to the report.
The legislation could become part of a constitutional amendment to allow abortion on demand in the event that the U.S. Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, the local news continued.
One News Now reports more:
Mary Hahn Beerworth, who heads Vermont Right to Life Committee, finds it ironic the U.S. was founded on the Declaration of Independence and the right to life.
“Vermont … has legalized abortion through all nine months of pregnancy without a single restriction or regulation on the practice of abortion – not even that a doctor perform the procedure; no limit on how late into pregnancy; and … legalized physician-assisted suicide. And now it wants to enshrine death into the Vermont Constitution,” she laments.
It appears to the pro-life leader that one particular organization snaps its fingers and the legislature responds favorably.​
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,926
3,346
113
#60
...and I wonder how many heard a peep of this from the pulpit today?