Abuse in the church-defending your faith.

[Ollie-A]

Clergy Abuse.
I didn't really noticed this until recently when I saw a case of a lady who turned atheist as a result of being sexually abused as a child by a religious leader. Then with a little research, I came across a multitude of convictions, trials and ongoing investigations into allegations of sex crimes committed by members of religious orders. I regard abuse-child abuse particularly as abhorrent but I find that when faced with such issues, I have no response, no way of defending my faith. It's a very grey area and as a result I am afraid that anything I say just won't sit well.
My question is this, how do you defend your faith to someone who has been a victim of "clergy abuse"?

 

[jonathanbchristian]

Tell them the person who did it is going to Hell but God wants the abused person to go to Heaven.

 

[Dude653]

Tell them the person who did it is going to Hell but God wants the abused person to go to Heaven.

How do YOU know who os going to heaven or hell...Are you God?? Do you have a heaven or hell to put anyone in??

 

[Strong1]

I agree!
Johnathon, you must be so careful at the way you respond.....at times you come off so religiously arrogant, and it's extremely distastefull.
Anyways.... You can always defend the faith my friend. the people that make the faith look so terrible and almost, "fake" are the very people you can use as a tool to do so. It is them who are wolves in sheeps clothing, that the very word speaks about right? People make God look bad, but God is soooooo good!!!!!
This is why we want to encourage others to get to know Christ, through his Word(the Bible) and not to try and find him amongst some of these so called "churches", or through the examples of some of these so called, authorities heading them.

 

[Lamby]

I think it's easy to forget that the victim has not been abused by the church or the clergy, but by an individual. An individual who will be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Ugly]

Very good point, Lamby. Also, many of these predators take these kinds of jobs because of the access they know they'll have to children, not because of any faith motive. Blaming God, or religion because the perpetrator happens to be of religious affiliation is like blaming the education system when its a teacher that abuses children. Its not the system they are affiliated with, its their personal choices.

 

[Ritter]

I remember a young man who joined my Church's children's program who both flipped a knife out on me and joined the children's ministry so he would have easier access to children. He was later charged with child molestation, and when I look back I wonder if any of my little friends were harmed by the wacko.

If they were, this is what I would tell them:

The reason why he was there was simply that people were too good to kick him out. You were abused, and that was wrong, but to them he was just a strange teenager that wanted to lend a hand and would have received love from nowhere else having been deprived of it at home and in school. Nobody would have shut him out without any evidence of him being dangerous to the children...well nobody except for me with the whole knife thing, but to be fair, I was the one who tackled him after he threw a water balloon at a prospective girlfriend.

While it can be argued the Church enabled him, I think it is unfair to say it was entirely their fault. You see, those of us who've lived peaceful lives have a certain naivety about them. They believe that things like this always happen far off, not even to people they know. There is no way that something like drug abuse, starvation, or child molestation could occur where they live in their protected suburbs.

It wasn't then the Church that enabled it, but the complexity of our times. You would have been every bit at risk at your local public school, a family reunion, or a public restroom. Is that a reason to hate God or his children? Is that a reason to look your personal redemption in the eye and throw it away? Are you using this as a justification for holding God off while you really do so for another reason?

God allows us to suffer. Things will happen that we may grow and know him better. We question "why me?" but fail to realize that the same one who allows us to suffer also promises us complete healing in this life or the next. He will heal you if you let Him, and I will be your friend if you need me. That is the basis of fellowship. God empathizes where I can't, but uses me and others to fill a void. There is so much more to loose by walking away.

 

[Ollie-A]

Thank you all for your responses. It's quite interesting to see different perspectives on the issue.
God bless.
Ollie
xxx

 

[Cabbage]

Well, coming from someone that was a victim of sexual abuse within the church...I think it is very important to have a passion when you are witnessing to someone that has been abused within the church. You should pray that God will send the Holy Spirit to prepare his heart before. The teaching of forgiveness is VERY hard for someone who has been abused, but just be there for them and don't try to push it all out once. Just let them know that Jesus cares for them and that He can give them the peace that they have never felt before. I hope this helps. There are bad people everywhere. It was a shock to my family and my community when I came forward, but just let them know that Jesus is there for them and whatever the other person did is their problem.

 

[Crossfire]

Clergy Abuse.
I didn't really noticed this until recently when I saw a case of a lady who turned atheist as a result of being sexually abused as a child by a religious leader. Then with a little research, I came across a multitude of convictions, trials and ongoing investigations into allegations of sex crimes committed by members of religious orders. I regard abuse-child abuse particularly as abhorrent but I find that when faced with such issues, I have no response, no way of defending my faith. It's a very grey area and as a result I am afraid that anything I say just won't sit well.
My question is this, how do you defend your faith to someone who has been a victim of "clergy abuse"?

Honestly, you can't. The bible speaks of such people as hypocrites who will be condemned for all eternity if they do not genuinely repent of their sin thus putting an end to such behavior. I don't even want to think about what will happen when those guilty of such crimes stand before the Lord in judgement.

The only way to reach out to a victom would be to love them unconditionally and show them how Jesus, being both righteous and just, does indeed love them and never once condoned the actions of those who hurt them.

 

[Liz01]

Telling them that the faith is faith in God and not in humans, that faith is a personal relationship only with God and nobody else. Humans will always make mistakes but God is always good and wise and heal our wounds and gives us strenght.

 

[mori]

A person doesn't always know what they need, and even if they do, they don't necessarily know how to ask. Just because someone has asked you to defend your faith doesn't mean that's the best conversation to have.

A man is walking along in a forest and, out of nowhere, gets smacked in the shoulder with an arrow. It's smeared in green goo and is almost certainly poisoned. He yells for his friends and they drag him to the local healer. He confirms that it's probably poisoned and they need to get it out as soon as possible. He washes the wound and is about to remove the arrow when...

"Wait, wait. Before you do that, I need to know what kind of man shot it. What caste was he? What is his family name? Did he make the arrow himself? From which tree? What kind of bird did he get the feather from? Or did he buy it all? From which shop? Was the shop owner a foreign trader? ..."

And so on. He really wants to know these things, because he's in pain and wants to understand how this came to be. The doctor, as kindly as possible, tells him he'll be dead if he tries to get answers first. Maybe later he can figure out who, what, when, but at the moment they need to deal with the poison seeping through his veins.

The man protests but the healer removes the arrow. The man understands nothing, but he's out of danger.

As a person who experienced emotional and physical (not sexual) abuse in the church, I've had a lot of anger and pain to deal with. And I've had a number of conversations in which I've asked people to help me understand this and how to reconcile my experiences with any Christian faith. As my continued search demonstrates, none of the answers have been personally satisfactory.

The most common, unfortunately:

Telling them that the faith is faith in God and not in humans, that faith is a personal relationship only with God and nobody else. Humans will always make mistakes but God is always good and wise and heal our wounds and gives us strenght.

The difficulty is twofold. If this is true, then why expose myself to any group of believers? Why not have a completely personal faith? Pray in my closet, never deal with dangerous Christians. Apparently, this is not satisfactory.

Also, Christians are supposed to be positive examples. City on the hill, salt and light, etc. - if Christians are no different from placebo, and in my experience they're not, then Jesus was... kidding? If we can't rely on your average Christian to be better than average Joe off the street, then exposure to the faith doesn't do anything and we have no reason to take an unproven pill.

I've had two very good conversations with Christians whom most would consider unorthodox. The first, with a Catholic monk. I've written about him before on here. The second, with Desmond Tutu, who sat in commiseration with a group of us. Didn't try to fix anything, didn't make any unnecessary defenses. In fact, he didn't try to distance himself from those who'd done wrong. They were still part of his family and he wasn't doing them violence just because they'd done some to us. By the end of the conversation, the arrow hadn't been pulled, perhaps, but the wound'd been washed. I still don't understand anything, but it hurts a little less.

Most Christians are Job's friends - they insist on spelling out their personal theologies in the face of real suffering. We know, of course, how that turned out.

 

[Liz01]

A person doesn't always know what they need, and even if they do, they don't necessarily know how to ask. Just because someone has asked you to defend your faith doesn't mean that's the best conversation to have.



As a person who experienced emotional and physical (not sexual) abuse in the church, I've had a lot of anger and pain to deal with. And I've had a number of conversations in which I've asked people to help me understand this and how to reconcile my experiences with any Christian faith. As my continued search demonstrates, none of the answers have been personally satisfactory.

The most common, unfortunately:



The difficulty is twofold. If this is true, then why expose myself to any group of believers? Why not have a completely personal faith? Pray in my closet, never deal with dangerous Christians. Apparently, this is not satisfactory.

Also, Christians are supposed to be positive examples. City on the hill, salt and light, etc. - if Christians are no different from placebo, and in my experience they're not, then Jesus was... kidding? If we can't rely on your average Christian to be better than average Joe off the street, then exposure to the faith doesn't do anything and we have no reason to take an unproven pill.

I've had two very good conversations with Christians whom most would consider unorthodox. The first, with a Catholic monk. I've written about him before on here. The second, with Desmond Tutu, who sat in commiseration with a group of us. Didn't try to fix anything, didn't make any unnecessary defenses. In fact, he didn't try to distance himself from those who'd done wrong. They were still part of his family and he wasn't doing them violence just because they'd done some to us. By the end of the conversation, the arrow hadn't been pulled, perhaps, but the wound'd been washed. I still don't understand anything, but it hurts a little less.

Most Christians are Job's friends - they insist on spelling out their personal theologies in the face of real suffering. We know, of course, how that turned out.

mori, Im sorry about your abuse and suffering in the church and im glad you had searched for help in that matter. I had suffered from pain too inside the church about some situations (some posted on CC).

But what i had discovered after those experiences is that God use that to makes us grow, to makes us understand and to teach us things like humility, self-control and forgiveness through our faith on Him.

Faith doesnt mean to live alone or together, faith doesnt mean to expose yourself and faith doesnt mean that you will receive the truth from one christian person, actually in bible says:

Psalm 40:4 "Blessed is that man who makes the Lord his trust,And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies."

Psalm 118:8 "It is better to trust in the Lord; than for to trust in man."

So instead of being separated from other christians when i went through those situations i chose to not separate but trust my life, the way ppl is with me, the things that happen around me let them in the hands of God. Instead of stoped being christian i chose to know more about God and what wanted from me and see if i was doing what He expected from me, being more obedient during the bad times.

So thats what i meant with what i wrote in this thread.

Hope God heals you and comfort you

 

[mit]

Don't think I can add much but what I've learn't is

Above all , our faith can never lack a defense.
Amen.

 

[Mooky]

Telling them that the faith is faith in God and not in humans, that faith is a personal relationship only with God and nobody else. Humans will always make mistakes but God is always good and wise and heal our wounds and gives us strenght.

No offense, but if someone told me this if I was that victim, I would be even more angry/ hateful towards God for the lack of sensitivity and presumption on the part of the person presenting this argument(platitude.)

Victims of abuse do not need religious jargon/christianese but people who will feel their pain and point them to the cross - where God brought great good out of horrendous evil.

 

[Liz01]

Two days ago i found an article in a web site and then i remembered this thread and i thought that could be of help for someone (and to myself ) :

“I’m not a Christian because there are too many hypocrites in the church” « Theo-sophical Ruminations

 

[Jullianna]

When those who claim to be of the faith do wrong, we should say it's wrong and not make excuses or attempt to hide it, and use the conversation as an opportunity to share the truth of God's mercy and loving forgiveness no matter what our failings.

 

[frankleespeaking]

Tell them the person who did it is going to Hell but God wants the abused person to go to Heaven.

I seen you got hammered on your strong answer on the matter, the bible clearly says that the sexually immoral will not inherit salvation, the only thing lacking in your post that I witnessed, was you should of said "If the molester continues in this kind of activity" he will most assuredly go to hell, you are not making a judgement against the perverted man, God has already given us what His judgement will be against those who live unrepentantly in many different sins. the sexually immoral i believe will be the biggest room in hell

 

[JtownUSA]

Clergy Abuse.
I didn't really noticed this until recently when I saw a case of a lady who turned atheist as a result of being sexually abused as a child by a religious leader. Then with a little research, I came across a multitude of convictions, trials and ongoing investigations into allegations of sex crimes committed by members of religious orders. I regard abuse-child abuse particularly as abhorrent but I find that when faced with such issues, I have no response, no way of defending my faith. It's a very grey area and as a result I am afraid that anything I say just won't sit well.
My question is this, how do you defend your faith to someone who has been a victim of "clergy abuse"?

Easy to 'defend'.. Not everyone who participates in a "religion" follows it strictly or even very well. It is not sensible to cast off said practices/beliefs just because some members do not live by them, even those who have decided to be in leadership and therefore ought to be good examples. Leaders are not God, though they ought to be representatives of Him.

 

[jack4022]

I think that people are just as likely to be pedophiles in any faith, however the Catholics come to the for front of the issue because they attempt to cover it up