Brexit - Do we stay or do we go

[Sirk]

It looks like the vote against the system movement is spreading. Come fall this movement will make a certain New Yorker become a tenant. Mrs. Clinton is not capable of seeing this, and she will lose the general, just like the anti brexit folks did in UK. I'm still not sure whether this is good or bad.

At this point anything different is good. I watched the movie 13 hours last night. It boiled my blood that Hillarys state dept left those people to die.

 

[Miri]

we're-not-out-till-we're-out
nearly-a-million-sign-a-petition-already-for-another-referendom
europe-is-re-writing-the-institution
another-vote-would-be-for-a-different-europe



watch-this-space

It doesn't mean there will be another vote. Someone has set up a petition wanting
another vote. For petitions over 100, 000 they can be debated in parliament.
But just because it could be debated it doesn't mean it will happen. In fact it's
highly unlikely the government will repeat the referendum all over again.

But just suppose they did hold another vote and remain won. What then would the leave people
petition for a third vote etc.... You could go on forever.

Cameron has already said there won't be another vote.


Million sign petition for new EU referendum - BBC News

 

[Pilkington]

I am training currently to work within the NHS as a Physician Associate (Physician Assistant U.S.). The NHS is amazing however there are huge issues, not just as a consequencience of imigration. Leaving the EU will help the NHS but that alone will not save it.

The NHS will not be able to continue as it is, there is incredibly wastage and inefficiency so much money could be saved. One example is the use of agency staff, whilst not paying overtime pay to hospital bank staff. If you pay your own staff overtime they will be prepared to work extra shifts, not only is this still cheaper than paying agency staff but has the advantage the staff are familiar with the systems within the hospital unlike the agency staff which could be from anywhere. This was trialled and found to be very effective in a local hospital. There are other inervations in other hospitals, One hospital has trialled the emergency floor system, which is saving money. If admitted from A and E you are admitted to the emergency floor. This is leading to better multidisiplinary working and quicker safer discharge. Also normally the community care package is cancelled as soon as someone goes into hospital, that area keeps it in place for 48 hours after hospital admission so the patient can be discharged. If it is cancelled it takes at least three days to reinstate so patient has to stay in hospital unnecessarily costing money. For example a patient comes in is ready for discharge within 24 hours but the care package is cancelled and so has to stay in for a further three days (72hours) so is in hospital for a total of 96 hours vs 24 hours. We probably need to start charging for people missing appointments no shows. This costs loads and increases waiting times.

Potentially we need to consider privatisation however I feel the best system is a not for profit one. I believe in health care which is free at the point of use and yes we do pay for the NHS via national insurance which some have mentioned.

The other issues we face are health problems which are a consequencience of lifestyle, smoking, alcohol and obesity. I am also not convinced that certain things should be available on the NHS.

Finally in my opinion there are certain conditions which should get free conditions but don't, for example heart failure. My husband has heart failure due to a genetic condition, he has five pescriptions a month which he has to pay for. Without the medication he would no longer be able to work, pay tax and would rapidly die. We buy a yearly pre-paid pescription card which saves us money.

 

[Agricola]

Lots of points to consider from Tanakh and Trofimus

IMMIGRATION - yay what a topic and a mis-understood one as well.

First of all, we can decide who comes into the UK from outside the EU, problem with this is that Labour ran an open door policy for the whole world, so we do have problems from that.

This government pledged to reduce the number of immigrants, they tried to do this by baring a larger number of no EU applications to work and live here, but umber of migrants increased. EU membership means that anyone who lives in EU country can move to and work in another EU country without any restrictions.

This is where the problem is. We can not stop EU citizens coming into the UK to live and work, as we are one of the biggest economies and we do not use the Euro, then it is going to be the number one destination for anyone who is financially hard up to come and work.

By leaving the EU we will only allow people in who will contribute to the country. We must have something in place that just about every country in the world has.

Trofimus, you mentioned something about immigrants coming to the country and then just sponging off benefits, these people are not from Africa, we stop those people as they are not under the EU. It is the Muslims who are EU citizens we have no control over, so leaving will solve these problems you speak of.

 

[Agricola]

Scotland, oh boy. Well first of all people assume that Sturgeon and the SNP speak for all Scots. They don't. There will be no referendum to leave the UK, that was made extremely clear.

If there had been a vote to leave the UK, then there was no guarantee that Scotland would automatically obtain EU membership. Article 48 or 49 would have to be invoked and application submitted.

With the UK now voting to leave, Scotland will have a more difficult time in securing EU membership. A large percentage of people still voted EXIT and if a good number of those people voted to leave the UK last time, would they now change vote? After all back then there was no hint of UK leaving the EU, but now, that changes a lot of things.

The SNP can jump and down all they like, they will not get another referendum to leave the UK any time soon.

 

[trofimus]

Lots of points to consider from Tanakh and Trofimus

IMMIGRATION - yay what a topic and a mis-understood one as well.

First of all, we can decide who comes into the UK from outside the EU, problem with this is that Labour ran an open door policy for the whole world, so we do have problems from that.

This government pledged to reduce the number of immigrants, they tried to do this by baring a larger number of no EU applications to work and live here, but umber of migrants increased. EU membership means that anyone who lives in EU country can move to and work in another EU country without any restrictions.

This is where the problem is. We can not stop EU citizens coming into the UK to live and work, as we are one of the biggest economies and we do not use the Euro, then it is going to be the number one destination for anyone who is financially hard up to come and work.

By leaving the EU we will only allow people in who will contribute to the country. We must have something in place that just about every country in the world has.

Trofimus, you mentioned something about immigrants coming to the country and then just sponging off benefits, these people are not from Africa, we stop those people as they are not under the EU. It is the Muslims who are EU citizens we have no control over, so leaving will solve these problems you speak of.

Its true, that any EU citizen can come and stay in UK. But the opposite is true, too. You can come to Madrid, Spain and live there. You can move to Warsaw or Prague without any problem. You can live in Rome. All this possibilities you have lost. It works both sides.

Everybody in EU is learning English. Its natural that if somebody thinks "where can I move to live in", England is the first choice, just because of no language barrier. It is much more harder to move to (for example) Spain (who can speak Spanish in EU?) or to other countries.

So I agree you bear the most heavy burden of EU immigration, just because of this fact. But why do you think these EU workers are not beneficial to you? They are mostly doing jobs no native UK citizen want to do. So you need them, so to say.

Yes, there are many muslims in western EU, mostly in France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany. But your leaving policy was built on the eastern european immigrants (Poland, Romania etc) and there are virtually no muslims there.

So you should be afraid of France much more than of east EU.

And do not tell me you left 27 countries just because 5 of them are full of muslims because of the same stupid policy UK was doing...

 

[Sirk]

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[trofimus]

View attachment 154307







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And now try again with the real shape of EU, mainly to the north parts

 

[Sirk]

And now try again with the real shape of EU, mainly to the north parts

What can I say.....I thought it was pretty creative...haha. Isn't it funny tho how images shape our opinions? I stole that from this guy on FB who just posts everything that comes his way on the inter web as tho it is the gospel truth.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Its true, that any EU citizen can come and stay in UK. But the opposite is true, too. You can come to Madrid, Spain and live there. You can move to Warsaw or Prague without any problem. You can live in Rome. All this possibilities you have lost. It works both sides.

Everybody in EU is learning English. Its natural that if somebody thinks "where can I move to live in", England is the first choice, just because of no language barrier. It is much more harder to move to (for example) Spain (who can speak Spanish in EU?) or to other countries.

So I agree you bear the most heavy burden of EU immigration, just because of this fact. But why do you think these EU workers are not beneficial to you? They are mostly doing jobs no native UK citizen want to do. So you need them, so to say.

Yes, there are many muslims in western EU, mostly in France, Belgium, Netherlands and Germany. But your leaving policy was built on the eastern european immigrants (Poland, Romania etc) and there are virtually no muslims there.

So you should be afraid of France much more than of east EU.

And do not tell me you left 27 countries just because 5 of them are full of muslims because of the same stupid policy UK was doing...

You miss the point, all the refugees Germany allowed into their county are now free to enter ours, among them are terrorists and some aren't but don't seem to understand that it's not OK to go around raping western women. The EU are also dictating the numbers we have to take in but unlike our own government they do not care about Britain's interests - only Europe as a whole. Immigrants are IMO not distributed fairly because Britain is full and can't take on that kind of immigration.

As for European migrants, we are overloaded with them here, they take all the work meaning the British do not stand a chance. Then there is the terrorist issue, terrorists we often cannot deport because of the European Court Of Human Rights.

Everyone seems to want to come here, our small island has been swamped with them. Enough is enough!

 

[trofimus]

You miss the point, all the refugees Germany allowed into their county are now free to enter ours, among them are terrorists and some aren't but don't seem to understand that it's not OK to go around raping western women. The EU are also dictating the numbers we have to take in but unlike our own government they do not care about Britain's interests - only Europe as a whole. Immigrants are IMO not distributed fairly because Britain is full and can't take on that kind of immigration.

As for European migrants, we are overloaded with them here, they take all the work meaning the British do not stand a chance. Then there is the terrorist issue, terrorists we often cannot deport because of the European Court Of Human Rights.

Everyone seems to want to come here, our small island has been swamped with them. Enough is enough!

1.
How exactly are they free to enter your country? They are not even free to enter my country that is next to Germany. Illegal immigrants are to be returned to the country they applied for the asylum for the first time, which is mostly Germany, Greece or Italy.

I am not sure what about illegal immigrant that will gain the refugee status in Germany. He is not an EU citizen so I dont know if the freedom of movement applies to such a person. Do you have this information?

2. Yes, the quotas on immigrants are a bad thing, our country together with Hungary and Slovakia were voting against quotas.

3. "As for European migrants, we are overloaded with them here, they take all the work meaning the British do not stand a chance."
Actually, there was a documentary about this topic. The opposite is true, native UK citizens do not want these jobs.

4. "Then there is the terrorist issue, terrorists we often cannot deport because of the European Court Of Human Rights."
I do not know what this means, what terrorists cannot be deported to where?

 

[Desdichado]

'healthy danger' is that a line out of Orwell?

Nah. Danger is healthy if it's directed against a malevolent force.

 

[Desdichado]

Trofimus reminds me of how the most intelligent defenders of Vote Remain seem to hail from Eastern Europe. My girlfriend is from that area of the world. We have had a few discussions on this topic and she makes a better argument than the Economist magazine.

I'm trying not to fall into the "woman is always right" trap. But enough about me...

 

[MadParrotWoman]

1.
How exactly are they free to enter your country? They are not even free to enter my country that is next to Germany. Illegal immigrants are to be returned to the country they applied for the asylum for the first time, which is mostly Germany, Greece or Italy.

I am not sure what about illegal immigrant that will gain the refugee status in Germany. He is not an EU citizen so I dont know if the freedom of movement applies to such a person. Do you have this information?

2. Yes, the quotas on immigrants are a bad thing, our country together with Hungary and Slovakia were voting against quotas.

3. "As for European migrants, we are overloaded with them here, they take all the work meaning the British do not stand a chance."
Actually, there was a documentary about this topic. The opposite is true, native UK citizens do not want these jobs.

4. "Then there is the terrorist issue, terrorists we often cannot deport because of the European Court Of Human Rights."
I do not know what this means, what terrorists cannot be deported to where?

1. These people do not follow rules, once they are in Europe they make their way to Britain - legally or otherwise.
3. Do not believe "the British do not want to work" rhetoric, it's often true - it often isn't just like any other country. We have British crying out for jobs but the EU members come over in coaches, join employment agencies and are employed in bulk - employers often ignore single Brits assuming they are workshy because everyone gets tarred with the same brush. I know what I'm talking about because my own son cannot get work!
4. The ECHR are only interested in the rights of terrorists not victims and these courts overrule decisions made by British courts to deport if they fear persecution awaits them in their own country. My heart bleeds for them.

I'm beginning to live up to my username!!!

 

[trofimus]

Trofimus reminds me of how the most intelligent defenders of Vote Remain seem to hail from Eastern Europe. My girlfriend is from that area of the world. We have had a few discussions on this topic and she makes a better argument than the Economist magazine.

I'm trying not to fall into the "woman is always right" trap. But enough about me...

Thank you... I am from the Central Europe, however But yes, I know, West will always see us as "Eastern", because 30 years ago we were under a Soviet Union and still, to this day, we have lower GDP than the West.

As you have pointed out, we have better women, on the other hand )

 

[Desdichado]

It doesn't mean there will be another vote. Someone has set up a petition wanting
another vote. For petitions over 100, 000 they can be debated in parliament.
But just because it could be debated it doesn't mean it will happen. In fact it's
highly unlikely the government will repeat the referendum all over again.

But just suppose they did hold another vote and remain won. What then would the leave people
petition for a third vote etc.... You could go on forever.

Cameron has already said there won't be another vote.


Million sign petition for new EU referendum - BBC News

In the days of '76, we sent Britain a letter which legally severed the ties with the Crown.

It wouldn't be another five years until we sealed the deal at Yorktown. In the meantime, we had to work around obstacles of a superior professional army on our soil, an ebbing and flowing of patriots in the face of hardship, poor supplies, difficult winter, threats of gruesome execution upon capture, etc, etc, etc.

The technocrats of the EU will do their best to hold on to what is theirs. Britons will have to be prepared to fight all the harder to "secure the blessings of liberty."

From the bottom of my heart, I wish your country the best in this undertaking and I hope to God that we elect a President who will support you.

 

[Sirk]

Thank you... I am from the Central Europe, however But yes, I know, West will always see us as "Eastern", because 30 years ago we were under a Soviet Union and still, to this day, we have lower GDP than the West.

As you have pointed out, we have better women, on the other hand )

Lol!........

 

[Desdichado]

Thank you... I am from the Central Europe, however But yes, I know, West will always see us as "Eastern", because 30 years ago we were under a Soviet Union and still, to this day, we have lower GDP than the West.

As you have pointed out, we have better women, on the other hand )

My apologies for the geographic curfuffle. That is precisely why I lump the Czech Republic into Eastern Europe.

Seriously, you are gifted with the best women in the entire world. If you all want to mass immigrate to the US instead of Syrians, please let me know.

 

[trofimus]

1. These people do not follow rules, once they are in Europe they make their way to Britain - legally or otherwise.
3. Do not believe "the British do not want to work" rhetoric, it's often true - it often isn't just like any other country. We have British crying out for jobs but the EU members come over in coaches, join employment agencies and are employed in bulk - employers often ignore single Brits assuming they are workshy because everyone gets tarred with the same brush. I know what I'm talking about because my own son cannot get work!
4. The ECHR are only interested in the rights of terrorists not victims and these courts overrule decisions made by British courts to deport if they fear persecution awaits them in their own country. My heart bleeds for them.

I'm beginning to live up to my username!!!

1. Yes, they try to enter UK against the law... but that is not what I would call "they are free to come there". You have the right to return them all back they have come from, i.e. to France.
And France has right to return them back to whatever country they have come to them etc. I actually dont understand what is France doing in Calais and why do they tolerate whole the city of illegal immigrants there waiting for the chance to get to UK. France is such a weak joke last years...

3. I did not say British do not want to work. But the truth is they do not want to do the "lower" jobs like staying 12 hours a day in a McDonalds or in hospital. Polish girl working there is not stealing your job. You would not want to do that job.

And remember, it works both sides. You can work in all other 27 countries as well. I am sure native English speaker would be welcome and paid with gold in any of them, mainly in international companies, schools etc.

4. Is it not about the weakness of your legal system as well? The whole world has a problem with muslims, its not only the UK. You can deport them back if you know they are lying or dangerous to your own country. Other countries are doing it without problems.

 

[trofimus]

My apologies for the geographic curfuffle. That is precisely why I lump the Czech Republic into Eastern Europe.

Seriously, you are gifted with the best women in the entire world. If you all want to mass immigrate to the US instead of Syrians, please let me know.

I wonder how many Syrians are in the world. Millions of them are in Turkey, millions of them are in EU and they are even in the USA?
I think if we would count all the "Syrian refugees" we would get very interesting number. Many "Syrian refugees" cant even speak Syrian and know nothing about that country.

OK I will remember that generous offer, when you will be a president of USA, I will come