IS THE RAPTURE NEAR : DONT DISMISS THESE SIGNS

[Ahwatukee]

What I really object to about the whole Rapture argument is that those who believe it and I'm really talking about Pre and Mid Tribbers have replaced Salvation through the belief in the finished work of Christ with belief in the Rapture. Eternal life is dependent on salvation not on anything else. When a believer dies He/She goes to be with the lord. Paul says in Thessalonians
that Christ will bring with him all those who have fallen asleep. The whole point of him saying this is because they were concerned about those who die before he returns. There is only one body and one Bride when Christ returns anyone who is not saved is lost. There are no ''Tribulation saints''who are saved after a Rapture because when Christ returns the full number of saved will have been reached. There is no special class of 'super saints' who avoid all the nasty happenings and are whipped off before the fat hits the fan. There is also no special way of salvation for Jews. A remnant be saved through belief in Christ the same as everyone else

Hello Tanakh,

As can be derived from scripture, there is the belief of certain things are revealing as to whether a person is truly in Christ. For example, Hymeneaus and Philetus were going about teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Because of this teaching Paul called it godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene, that they had wandered away from the truth and that they were destroying the faith of some.

It is the same for those who claim to be in Christ but are trusting in the law to be saved. Regarding this Jesus said, "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of God, but only those who do the will of my Father. The will of the Father is to believe in the One whom He sent, Jesus Christ.

Similarly, Peter referred to Paul's letters as wisdom from God and his letters as scripture. Regarding this, there were some who were distorting them and that, Peter said, to their own destruction.

So, what about those who, instead of believing in the "Blessed Hope," the appearing of our Lord to come and take the church back to the Father's house, those who ignore the promises of not being appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and Jesus' promise to keep believers of that time out of the hour of trial that is coming? By believing as such, they are not believing that the living church must first go through God's wrath before being gathered, they are not truly believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and thereby satisfying God's wrath.

My point is, one can say "Lord, Lord" but their lack of believing in the word of God regarding these things tells another story.

Instead of believing in the word of God that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, you've got the living church being put through God's wrath. It is as though the wrath that Jesus experienced on our behalf was insufficient.

The wrath of God is coming upon this world and the church will not be exposed to it, because Jesus already was. When you make this known to people, instead of believing this, they use existing apologetics or create some in order to get around the truth by diluting it or watering it down and relocating and removing its severity it in order to neutralize what they have been told regarding scripture.

Those who claim that Jesus has already returned in 70 AD and that all end-time events have already taken place and that there is no gathering of the church or that we are to be put through the wrath of God first, are false teachers, regardless of their claim of being in Christ. Their teachings betray them.

 

[Angela53510]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the word Rapture is not in the Bible. The very concept is not in the Bible.

Instead, Jesus returns once. In other words, everything unfolds at his parousia, or second coming. I don't know how so many people can get so wrapped up in bad hermeneutics, grabbing a verse here, shoring it up with a bit of the OT, retranslating harpazo to mean something it does not. And then more careful eisegeting a few verses, and ignoring the entire rest of the Bible.

Seriously, walk with Jesus and who cares what the So-called "signs" are!

 

[Sully]

Many won't watch videos if you don't give a clearer description.

bro, I love you but you are obsessed with descriptions....why?

 

[Sully]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the word Rapture is not in the Bible. The very concept is not in the Bible.

Instead, Jesus returns once. In other words, everything unfolds at his parousia, or second coming. I don't know how so many people can get so wrapped up in bad hermeneutics, grabbing a verse here, shoring it up with a bit of the OT, retranslating harpazo to mean something it does not. And then more careful eisegeting a few verses, and ignoring the entire rest of the Bible.

Seriously, walk with Jesus and who cares what the So-called "signs" are!

well you said it before, which I totally disregarded. But you said it again.....changes everything.

 

[Burninglight]

Its not the Rapture that is false its peoples beliefs about it and a lot of other stuff that goes with it.

Well, yes and no. It is better to lose that term "rapture" and call it the "catching away" instead, because when that term "rapture" is used it involves a false doctrine that goes with it. IOW, rapture is symomously attached to pretribulation doctrine that is not Scriptural.

 

[tanakh]

Hello Tanakh,

As can be derived from scripture, there is the belief of certain things are revealing as to whether a person is truly in Christ. For example, Hymeneaus and Philetus were going about teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Because of this teaching Paul called it godless chatter, that it would spread like gangrene, that they had wandered away from the truth and that they were destroying the faith of some.

It is the same for those who claim to be in Christ but are trusting in the law to be saved. Regarding this Jesus said, "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter into the kingdom of God, but only those who do the will of my Father. The will of the Father is to believe in the One whom He sent, Jesus Christ.

Similarly, Peter referred to Paul's letters as wisdom from God and his letters as scripture. Regarding this, there were some who were distorting them and that, Peter said, to their own destruction.

So, what about those who, instead of believing in the "Blessed Hope," the appearing of our Lord to come and take the church back to the Father's house, those who ignore the promises of not being appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and Jesus' promise to keep believers of that time out of the hour of trial that is coming? By believing as such, they are not believing that the living church must first go through God's wrath before being gathered, they are not truly believing that Christ took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and thereby satisfying God's wrath.

My point is, one can say "Lord, Lord" but their lack of believing in the word of God regarding these things tells another story.

Instead of believing in the word of God that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, you've got the living church being put through God's wrath. It is as though the wrath that Jesus experienced on our behalf was insufficient.

The wrath of God is coming upon this world and the church will not be exposed to it, because Jesus already was. When you make this known to people, instead of believing this, they use existing apologetics or create some in order to get around the truth by diluting it or watering it down and relocating and removing its severity it in order to neutralize what they have been told regarding scripture.

Those who claim that Jesus has already returned in 70 AD and that all end-time events have already taken place and that there is no gathering of the church or that we are to be put through the wrath of God first, are false teachers, regardless of their claim of being in Christ. Their teachings betray them.

There is a vast difference between going through Gods wrath and being protected from it. If you belong to Christ you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. The rapture is nothing to do with wrath its to do with receiving immortal bodies. Our earthly bodies are transformed into those like Christs and it happens at the second coming.

The Israelite's were protected from Gods wrath without leaving Egypt. They had further protection from death by the blood of the Lamb just as we have. The judgement there is a type of the last days. In Revelation the 144000 Jews are also protected here on earth by being sealed. Rev 7:3.

The only reason the Pre Trib Rapture is included in the Dispensationalist teaching is because those who promoted it believed that for God to save a remnant of Jews in the last days he had to get the Church out of the way. as if God isnt capable of managing both Israel and theChurch at the same time. They also failed to recognize that Christ only has one Bride consisting of both Jew and Gentile.

If the remnant of Jews are still on earth and protected by being sealed with the holy Spirit why do you think God cant do the same with the Church? Another aspect regarding the Pre Trib teaching is that there supposed to be people saved after everyone else has been raptured. So we are left with part of Christs body on earth and the rest in heaven having a banquet.


In this teaching we are told that everyone who has been raptured come back with Christ after seven years. But Paul doesn't say that he says that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep Thess 4:14 This was his answer to those who believed that dead believers would miss his coming. They return with him to receive their immortal bodies and to join those
who are still alive at his coming.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There is a vast difference between going through Gods wrath and being protected from it. If you belong to Christ you are sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Hello tanahk,

This is where understanding the severity of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments comes in. There isn't going to be any place to be protected from. There is going to be too much going on which will affect the entire planet to be protected. When the mark of the beast becomes mandatory in order to buy and sell, those without the mark will not be able to be apart of the economic system. You won't be able to have a job, pay bills, buy food, gas, etc., etc. God would literally have to put a force field around each and every believer to keep them from experiencing the events that are going to take place.

In addition to this and which I continue to remind people, is that the church is no where mentioned after the end of chapter 3 of Revelation. Instead of protecting the believers in Christ during the time of God's wrath, He has promised to remove believers from the earth. That also makes a lot more sense than sending all believers through his wrath and protecting them within it.

Regarding this, Jesus also made a promise to the living church to keep us "out of" the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world as found in Rev.3:10. We also have a promise that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath as found in 1 Thes.1:10, but you pay no attention to this promise as well. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath in any capacity and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf. And because these events of wrath will be world-wide and believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, we will not be here to experience it.

This is why I keep saying that you and others are not understanding the severity of these events of wrath that are associated with that time period.

The Israelite's were protected from Gods wrath without leaving Egypt. They had further protection from death by the blood of the Lamb just as we have. The judgement there is a type of the last days. In Revelation the 144000 Jews are also protected here on earth by being sealed. Rev 7:3.

Your example is not a valid comparison. Israel was meant to remain on the earth to be lead to the land of Canaan and to take possession of it and to multiply and fill the land. What is coming is the fulfillment of that last seven years with God's wrath being poured out during the entire period, leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. That said, from that point there would be no reason for the church to remain on the earth. It is at this point when we receive our immortal and glorified bodies and are caught up, where the entire church will be taken back to the Father's house according to the Lord's promise. During that time will be the wedding of the Lamb, which is where the church/bride will receive her fine line, bright and clean.

If the remnant of Jews are still on earth and protected by being sealed with the holy Spirit why do you think God cant do the same with the Church?

The remnant of Jews are not protected by being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Once that abomination is set up, the woman/Israel, flees out into the desert where she is cared for by God during that last 31/2 years in a place that he will have prepared for her (Rev.12:6,14). This is Israel's program and the completion of that last seven years, not the churches program.

Another aspect regarding the Pre Trib teaching is that there supposed to be people saved after everyone else has been raptured. So we are left with part of Christs body on earth and the rest in heaven having a banquet.

Those who are saved after the church has been gathered are referred to as "the great tribulation saints." They are never referred to as the church. These will be those who will receive Christ after the church period has been completed, which are those introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those mentioned in Rev.13 who the beast is given authority to conquer and make war against during that last 3 1/2 years up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. As I said before, after the end of Revelation 3, you will never see the word church mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath.

In this teaching we are told that everyone who has been raptured come back with Christ after seven years. But Paul doesn't say that he says that Christ will bring with him those who have fallen asleep Thess 4:14 This was his answer to those who believed that dead believers would miss his coming. They return with him to receive their immortal bodies and to join those who are still alive at his coming.

Only the church, those who will have been faithful and watching for the Lord's appearing, will be changed and caught up. The great tribulation saints become believers after the church has been gathered. Rev.17:14 & 19:14 demonstrate that the church, those who will have previously been resurrected, as returning with Christ. The great tribulation saints who die during that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, are resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth as shown in Rev.20:4-6.

The church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints will all be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will rule with Christ during His thousand year reign on this present earth.

 

[tanakh]

Hello tanahk,

This is where understanding the severity of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments comes in. There isn't going to be any place to be protected from. There is going to be too much going on which will affect the entire planet to be protected. When the mark of the beast becomes mandatory in order to buy and sell, those without the mark will not be able to be apart of the economic system. You won't be able to have a job, pay bills, buy food, gas, etc., etc. God would literally have to put a force field around each and every believer to keep them from experiencing the events that are going to take place.

In addition to this and which I continue to remind people, is that the church is no where mentioned after the end of chapter 3 of Revelation. Instead of protecting the believers in Christ during the time of God's wrath, He has promised to remove believers from the earth. That also makes a lot more sense than sending all believers through his wrath and protecting them within it.

Regarding this, Jesus also made a promise to the living church to keep us "out of" the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world as found in Rev.3:10. We also have a promise that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath as found in 1 Thes.1:10, but you pay no attention to this promise as well. Believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath in any capacity and that because Jesus already suffered it on our behalf. And because these events of wrath will be world-wide and believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, we will not be here to experience it.

This is why I keep saying that you and others are not understanding the severity of these events of wrath that are associated with that time period.



Your example is not a valid comparison. Israel was meant to remain on the earth to be lead to the land of Canaan and to take possession of it and to multiply and fill the land. What is coming is the fulfillment of that last seven years with God's wrath being poured out during the entire period, leading up to the Lord's return to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. That said, from that point there would be no reason for the church to remain on the earth. It is at this point when we receive our immortal and glorified bodies and are caught up, where the entire church will be taken back to the Father's house according to the Lord's promise. During that time will be the wedding of the Lamb, which is where the church/bride will receive her fine line, bright and clean.



The remnant of Jews are not protected by being sealed with the Holy Spirit. Once that abomination is set up, the woman/Israel, flees out into the desert where she is cared for by God during that last 31/2 years in a place that he will have prepared for her (Rev.12:6,14). This is Israel's program and the completion of that last seven years, not the churches program.



Those who are saved after the church has been gathered are referred to as "the great tribulation saints." They are never referred to as the church. These will be those who will receive Christ after the church period has been completed, which are those introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those mentioned in Rev.13 who the beast is given authority to conquer and make war against during that last 3 1/2 years up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. As I said before, after the end of Revelation 3, you will never see the word church mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath.



Only the church, those who will have been faithful and watching for the Lord's appearing, will be changed and caught up. The great tribulation saints become believers after the church has been gathered. Rev.17:14 & 19:14 demonstrate that the church, those who will have previously been resurrected, as returning with Christ. The great tribulation saints who die during that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, are resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth as shown in Rev.20:4-6.

The church, the 144,000 and the great tribulation saints will all be in their immortal and glorified bodies and will rule with Christ during His thousand year reign on this present earth.

You say that the tribulation will be so severe that there will be nowhere to escape.How about all the people of the nations that are judged as sheep and goats when christ returns? They were here during the wrath.and appear to have got through the wrath somehow. Otherwise there would be no one left for Christ and the saints to rule over during the millennium.

In Revelation seven the phrase ''Tribulation Saints'' appears nowhere. What appears is a multitude that no man can number from all nations and kindreds and people and tongues. John is told that they come out of the great tribulation. What doesnt appear before the throne of God is another group that never went through the tribulation at all. So where are all the pre tribbers. By the description in the passage this multitude sound suspiciously like the Church to me and to anyone else except yourself and those who have the same beliefs.

There is a simple answer as to why the term Church is not used after chapter three of Revelation and it is nothing to do with John being raptured. The first three Chapters consist of messages to seven Churches that existed when the book was written In each individual message Christ gives praise and condemnation to each one. The messages are all different. After chapter three the rest of Revelation is addressed to all seven of them so instead of the word Church being used Saint is used instead.
There is nothing strange about this at all. Also the word church is not found in Mark,Luke,John,2 Timothy'Titus,1 Peter,2 Peter,1 John,2 John,and Jude. You also have to read up to Romans 16 before you find Church being used. So are these
books irrelevant to the church?

 

[Ahwatukee]

You say that the tribulation will be so severe that there will be nowhere to escape.How about all the people of the nations that are judged as sheep and goats when Christ returns? They were here during the wrath.and appear to have got through the wrath somehow. Otherwise there would be no one left for Christ and the saints to rule over during the millennium.

The people of the nations wouldn't have to escape Tanakh and that because those people will be those who will be worshiping the beast and receiving his mark and therefore will be able to buy and sell. The church would not receive it and would therefore would not have access to food, gas or anything that is purchasable.

Regarding the sheep, as I said these will be those who survive out of the great tribulation saints. These will be those who will, along with Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennium. But you're missing the point. The promise is that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and because of the severity of it, the church will be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath.

In Revelation seven the phrase ''Tribulation Saints'' appears nowhere. What appears is a multitude that no man can number from all nations and kindreds and people and tongues.

"Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”I answered, “Sir, you know.”And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The "these" in the verse above who are from every nation, tribe, people and language, which would make them Gentiles and saints and are mentioned as coming out of the great tribulation. These are those who will have kept their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast, his image nor received his mark, even at the loss of their own lives. As I continue to make known, only the word "hagios" translated as "saints" is found throughout the narrative of God's wrath. In opposition, you will not see the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" anywhere in the narrative. Reason being is that the church isn't on the earth at that time.

So where are all the pre tribbers. By the description in the passage this multitude sound suspiciously like the Church to me and to anyone else except yourself and those who have the same beliefs.

yeah, except for that fact that they are never referred to as the church.

You guys just have no understanding of end-time events. Nor are you able to see the hidden things, the clues in God's word.

Nothing is by accident or by coincidence in God's word. That said, there is a reason why only the word "ekklesia/church" is used throughout chapters 1 thru 3. And in those same chapters you will not find the word hagios/saints. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward you will only see the word hagios/saints and not the word ekklesia/church.

Again, if the those saints that you say "sound suspiciously like the church" were the church, then this group would be exposed to God's wrath, which as I continue to point out, is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

After chapter three the rest of Revelation is addressed to all seven of them so instead of the word Church being used Saint is used instead.

yeah, like I said, you and others have no discernment regarding these things. Throughout the NT the word church and Saints is used interchangeably. But here in Revelation, a distinction is being made. The use of these two words are deliberately separated. If the words church and saints were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then this would be a moot point, but that is not the case. It is an obvious distinction.

 

[tanakh]

Hello Atwatuki

The word Saint means sanctified, Set apart and made Holy. Every believer is a saint through faith in Christ. Church is used in the NT when addressed to a specific body of believers like those in Corinth or Thessalonica AND for the seven Churches in Revelation. Would you agree that the members of the seven churches are Saints as I described the meaning of the title?
If they are Saints and the people in the rest of Revelation are Saints making a distinction between the groups by labelling one
as ''Tribulation Saints'' is a purely arbitrary device to maintain the Pre Trib teaching.

If these Saints died in the tribulation their Spirits would be in Heaven. John does see vision of those who were beheaded praying when God would avenge them. Problem is that the Pre Trib teaching requires that the Rapture happens before the tribulation starts. So how do these Saints get immortal bodies when the rest of the Church has already been raptured before the tribulation started. The only way is for them to get their immortal bodies is to have them resurrected separately. There are only two main resurrections in Revelation one is called the first and the other is the great White Throne judgement.
According to Pre Trib thinking they have already missed the first one and the other would not be tenable so what is the answer? The answer I have is that the Church and the so called tribulation Saints are one of the same. The resurrection and
Rapture occur at the seventh trumpet when Christ and those who died return with him and those still alive meet him in the air
and return to earth with him in glorified bodies.

I dont expect you to accept any of this because you seem to be set in your beliefs. I have answered for the benefit of others who may read it

 

[Burninglight]

Again, if the those saints that you say "sound suspiciously like the church" were the church, then this group would be exposed to God's wrath, which as I continue to point out, is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

yeah, like I said, you and others have no discernment regarding these things. Throughout the NT the word church and Saints is used interchangeably. But here in Revelation, a distinction is being made. The use of these two words are deliberately separated. If the words church and saints were used interchangeably throughout the entire book of Revelation, then this would be a moot point, but that is not the case. It is an obvious distinction.

It is true we are not appointed to wrath, but the fact that the saints are around during God's wrath doesn't mean they are appointed to wrath. It means that they will be protected from God's wrath, because they are sealed by God, but they will go through great persecution.

Jesus told us it will be like the days of Noah, he went through the storm of God's wrath hid in the ark, we will go through it hid in Christ. It is consistent with the way God has done things. Even during the Passover the children of Israel wen through the wrath of God protected. Why would God do things differently?

I believe, we will see the judgment of God on the wicked and not all the saints will be killed but many will, but not by God's wrathe. The tribulations saints are all the saints that suffered tribulation since the beginning. They are the ones that cry out when the fifth seal was opened: "How long of God will you not judge those who dwell on the earth...? they were told to wait until their fellow servants were killed as they were should be fulfilled. That means those of us that will be persecuted and killed by the antichrist, but not all saints will die.

 

[Burninglight]

Hello Tanakh,

As can be derived from scripture, there is the belief of certain things are revealing as to whether a person is truly in Christ.

This is true, but believing in the false rapture teaching involving a pre tribulation scenario is not one of them. It just means they are deceived.

 

[Burninglight]

Hello BurningLight,



Therein lies the problem. Matt.24:30-31 is not the gathering of the church. These verse are referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. When the Lord sends His angels out, that is not the gathering of the church. According to the parable in Matt.13 of the weeds and wheat, the angels will first be gathering the weeds and then the wheat. These will be those who will have made it alive through the entire seven years until Christ returns. Those that the angels will be gathering will be the surviving great tribulation saints. They along with the survivors of Israel, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

The bottom line is that 2 Thes.2 is speaking about the gathering of the church, where Matt.24:30-31 is speaking in regards to the Lord's return to end the age, which are two separate events.

By the way, the church will never see the antichrist.[/COLOR]

So, you are believing what is known as the pre tribulation view. Christ can come at any minute and snatch us away, and we'll come back with the Lord to get those that survive the great tribulation? is that right? I am just trying to understand your position.

 

[RedeemedGift]

There are no signs for the rapture. Those who look for signs aren't putting their whole focus on Jesus.

It is true we are not appointed to wrath, but the fact that the saints are around during God's wrath doesn't mean they are appointed to wrath. It means that they will be protected from God's wrath, because they are sealed by God, but they will go through great persecution.

Jesus told us it will be like the days of Noah, he went through the storm of God's wrath hid in the ark, we will go through it hid in Christ. It is consistent with the way God has done things. Even during the Passover the children of Israel wen through the wrath of God protected. Why would God do things differently?

I believe, we will see the judgment of God on the wicked and not all the saints will be killed but many will, but not by God's wrathe. The tribulations saints are all the saints that suffered tribulation since the beginning. They are the ones that cry out when the fifth seal was opened: "How long of God will you not judge those who dwell on the earth...? they were told to wait until their fellow servants were killed as they were should be fulfilled. That means those of us that will be persecuted and killed by the antichrist, but not all saints will die.

The bride of Christ isn't appointed to wrath, but that says nothing about the tribulation saints. The tribulation saints will be slaughtered. Only the 144,000 Jewish believers will be sealed by the Spirit.

If Noah went through the wrath of God with the flood, he would not have survived, would he? Jesus is basically saying that life will be seemingly normal before the wrath of God is revealed with great suddenness, as it was in the days of Noah. Noah and his family were in the ark before the flood came, the world didn't understand and even mocked until it was too late.

You cannot go through the wrath of God "protected". What happened to the blood of the lambs that saved the children of Israel from His judgment? Is that not a picture of Christ's blood as the Lamb of God to those who believe?

The church has suffered from man's wrath from the beginning, but God's wrath is something the church has been promised specifically to be saved from.

 

[HeraldtheNews]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the word Rapture is not in the Bible. The very concept is not in the Bible.

Instead, Jesus returns once. In other words, everything unfolds at his parousia, or second coming. I don't know how so many people can get so wrapped up in bad hermeneutics, grabbing a verse here, shoring it up with a bit of the OT, retranslating harpazo to mean something it does not. And then more careful eisegeting a few verses, and ignoring the entire rest of the Bible.

Seriously, walk with Jesus and who cares what the So-called "signs" are!

"I don't know how so many people can get so wrapped up in bad hermeneutics, grabbing a verse here, shoring it up with a bit of the OT, retranslating harpazo"

"harpazo" means: "POOF!!"
Didn't Paul say "in an instant"? "a twinkling of the eye?"

Don't forget the swans...

 

[heartofdavid]

This is true, but believing in the false rapture teaching involving a pre tribulation scenario is not one of them. It just means they are deceived.

There is a gathering in rev 14 during the GT.

So,no,you are wrong about the rapture because in 1 thes 4 it says "the dead in Christ rise first...."

You have the dead in Christ rising after the gathering in rev 14.

 

[heartofdavid]

This is true, but believing in the false rapture teaching involving a pre tribulation scenario is not one of them. It just means they are deceived.

Show us one post trib rapture verse.

Surely you have one to defend your assertion we are deceived?

 

[heartofdavid]

Well, yes and no. It is better to lose that term "rapture" and call it the "catching away" instead, because when that term "rapture" is used it involves a false doctrine that goes with it. IOW, rapture is symomously attached to pretribulation doctrine that is not Scriptural.

Ironically,it is you guys that cannot defend your position with a bible.

If your talking points from all your non biblical sources are removed,the debate ends very quickly.

That post trib rapture deal is thoroughly debunked big time

 

[heartofdavid]

Remember that religion is one of Satan’s hidden dynasties. He loves to plant false doctrines, which twist Scripture, in Christian churches.


If you believe the rapture, you may find yourself among the following group of deceived Christians when Christ returns.


And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. Revelation 6:16


The above folks are so ashamed because they’ve been worshiping the wrong Christ.


It seems that the rapture people have forgotten how to count. The think the 7th trump comes before 6th ... that the real Christ comes before the false one comes. Christ returns at the 7th trump, not the 6th trump;


At the 6th seal, 6th trump, 6th vial (666), Michael will boot Satan, playing his role as the Antichrist (instead of Christ in the Greek), from heaven to earth (Revelation Chapter 12:6-9). Keep in mind that Revelation is a Prophetic book making the word SAW into the futuristic word "will" fall etc.


Christ also gave you all 7 seals & trumps in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24. Have you read them with understanding?


So, from where then did the false rapture doctrine come?


Before 1830, you can find no mention of the Rapture Doctrine. That alone ought to send up a red flag. In fact, the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So, where did this false doctrine come from? In 1830, Margaret MacDonald had an evil revelation on her sick bed, supposedly from God, in which she was shown what would become "The Rapture Of The Church", among other names.


And, from The Incredible Cover-up by Dave Macpherson, Appendix A, you'll read:


"I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light." - Margaret MacDonald (Spring of 1830)


MacDonald's revelation would have probably died with her; however, two preachers grabbed it, cleaned it up, and presented it to Christendom. Today, you'll hear many pastors promoting that false doctrine from pulpits.

Classic post trib mix and mis match.

About 1/3 cherry pick verses and 2/3 post trib rapture nonbible blather.

BTW Margaret was post trib. She believed the church had to go through the GT for "cleansing"

That is hyper religious baloney......and she was in fact post trib.

 

[MattforJesus]

Ironically,it is you guys that cannot defend your position with a bible.

If your talking points from all your non biblical sources are removed,the debate ends very quickly.

That post trib rapture deal is thoroughly debunked big time

I hear you,for the post tribulation is not true,for look at these scriptures that go against the post tribulation big time,where there is no doubt the post tribulation is false.What are these people thinking that believe in a post tribulation.Where are their heads at,what is their deal.I'm tired of it.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,which occurs during the first three and one half years of the 7 years period,in which there will be a unified religious system,based on spiritual evolution(1 Timothy 4:1-5),and all religions not compatible will be interpreted that way,and their fundamental beliefs not recognized,and it will be a hate crime to try to convert someone to their religion,punishable in the international criminal court system.

It wll be the time the world will not want to hear the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,spiritual evolution through nature(2 Timothy 4:2-4),the unified religious system,and a hate crime to try to convert someone to their religion,which is mainly people trying to push their fundamental beliefs that the unified religious system does not recognize,for all are valid with a core truth,and Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth.

The unified religious system will outrage the religion of Islam,the world and Islam clash,a war happens,and one third of the population of the world dies(Revelation 9:13-21),and the world turns to the man of sin to help them to have peace on earth,and he claims to be God by spiritual evolution through nature,and the falling away first is complete.

In the middle of the 7 years period,the man of sin claims to be God,and all people that do not love God take the mark of the beast,and repentance,and salvation,is no longer available to them.

The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until this happens,let no person deceive you by any means so saith Paul,so saith Jesus to Paul who saith this to us.

God allows the beast to rule for three and one half years,and the beast makes war against the saints,and prevails against them(Revelation 13:5-10).

They are given in to his hands for three and one half years(Daniel 7:23-25).

He shall destroy the mighty and holy people(Daniel 8:23-25).

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people the saints that remain on earth shall be gathered unto Christ(Daniel 12:7).

So I hear you that the post tribulation is not true,and can be debunked at any time,and at any place,and at any social gathering,any family reunion,anywhere that people meeteth where ever they meeteth,and greeteth.

Sorry about the sarcasm.You'll live.Sorry about that sarcasm too.