Westboro Baptist- Christian or not?

[jimmydiggs]

κόσμος = people, universe, world
Another place has the definitions as follows:

1. an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2. ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:
3. the world, the universe
4. the circle of the earth, the earth
5. the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
--------------
In looking it up online, the actual word used is Kosmon (κόσμο&#957, which I'm assuming the root is Kosmos.

None of the places where I looked the word up, did they specify only a select group that Christ died for. Instead, if you notice definition 6 from the second listing, it specifically states the WHOLE MASS of men alienated from God. Now, it's quite possible there maybe some additional definitions not included, but I highly doubt it.

I just spent the last hour and a half 3:00-4:30 central time, typing up my response. When I clicked "Submit reply" I had been automatically logged out from CC (something I've never encountered while typing a post) and lost my entire post. I need to get some reading done for tomorrow, and do some other school work. I might get time around 8 or 9 this evening.

 

[Shaije]

I'm always really hurt when people say that I am not Christian because I identify as Catholic. I've been going to Catholic school since I was in kindergarten. I would not have learned about Jesus if it wan't for that. True, I don't agree with all the doctrine. The Vatican is run by conservative men and I go to a liberal, feminist, all women university that was founded by awesome Catholic nuns. But I don't answer to the Pope. I answer to Christ.

Now, the Westboro Baptist Church. I'll tell you that I don't think highly of them, but being Christian is about knowing the Lord--accepting Christ. Looking at their actions as a church, you could say they are not Christians. Their behavior is not Christ-like. However, you cannot judge the individual people of that church and what they know in their heart. That's never our place.

Christians are recognized by their fruit, yes, but sometimes even strong Christ loving individuals grow bitter fruit because of ignorance.

In Christ,
River

AMEN! Sister, i really liked what you had to say. You have much wisdom for a girl/woman of your age. It gives me MUCH encouragement to see this. Gods speed young sister

 

[oracle2world]

Christian: A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

It is not associated with a particular church.

 

[oracle2world]

Christian: A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

It is not associated with any particular church.

 

[megaman125]

I don't understand why other denominations can declare another one as not Christian. It's happening primarily with Catholics, but Westboro is another one. Everyone interprets the Bible differently. They are literalists. Why does that make them non-Christian? I don't agree with half of what they do, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they aren't Christians.

Now I have no business declaring whether or not people professing to be Christians are saved or not. That's not my call to make, that's between them and God.

But I do have issues when people professing to be Christians like some of those from Westboro run around and protest holding signs that say "God hates fags," and preaching other things that directly go against the Bible they claim to believe and follow. For instance, John 3:16 says that "God so loved the world..." God loves everyone. There's no clause in there that says God loves everyone except for gay people, or except for this type of sinner or that type of sinner. And if you ever meet a protest group from Westboro, feel free to make your own sign that quotes 1 John 4:20 and show them that.

There are some positive aspects to Westboro. I admire their ability to come together and protest in public. I think we need that more with Christians and churches, of course without all the non-biblical preaching/hating.

 

[Katy-follower]

Christian: A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

It is not associated with any particular church.

A real Christian is a person who is born again, they've been covered by the blood of Jesus. They've been saved by grace through faith.

Water Baptism doesn't save anyone. The devil believes in Jesus but he is not saved.

The born again believers are the church... not a building.

 

[Katy-follower]

I don't understand why other denominations can declare another one as not Christian

"By their fruits you will know them"

 

[Katy-follower]

To even consider that His blood was only shed for those who would believe is a total misunderstanding as to why and to whom God sent His Son.

Red -

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but your post is sounding like you're suggesting all will be saved regardless of whether they believe.

Only those who believe will be saved though. To those who don't believe He died in vain as there is no other way, only through Jesus.

So Jesus died on the cross to save those that would believe (it was offered to everyone but not everyone would accept). Otherwise you're trying to say the whole world is saved?

 

[Mediate]

Red -

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but your post is sounding like you're suggesting all will be saved regardless of whether they believe.

Only those who believe will be saved though. To those who don't believe He died in vain as there is no other way, only through Jesus.

So Jesus died on the cross to save those that would believe (it was offered to everyone but not everyone would accept). Otherwise you're trying to say the whole world is saved?

Katy what is belief?

Steadfast, complete conviction that something is true?

Well, the human condition is simply not capable of complete, unshakeable conviction. There will always be faltering.

So, nobody really believes.

The same way all humans are liars. All have impure thoughts. All are prone to hatred. All have commited murder in our hearts.

This is Red's point.

There is nobody who is 'chosen' or 'elite'.

We are all the goats.

 

[jimmydiggs]

We are all the goats.

You might be a goat. Those who are redeemed, are his sheep.

Universalism (everyone get's saved) is heresy.

 

[Mediate]

You might be a goat. Those who are redeemed, are his sheep.

Universalism (everyone get's saved) is heresy.

Then I congratulate you.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Then I congratulate you.

I don't know what for. You seem from your posts, to be quite happy saying all sorts of things, that are not scriptural.

 

[Red33]

Red -

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but your post is sounding like you're suggesting all will be saved regardless of whether they believe.

Only those who believe will be saved though. To those who don't believe He died in vain as there is no other way, only through Jesus.

So Jesus died on the cross to save those that would believe (it was offered to everyone but not everyone would accept). Otherwise you're trying to say the whole world is saved?

In that post I was only addressing God's side of salvation and eternal redemption that He has provided to sinful man through the sacrifice of His Son. Our side, as sinful man, is to believe and appropriate by faith what God has provided through His Son. Salvation through Christ has been provided and made available to ALL men (1Jn 2:2) and not just an elect few, for God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2Pt 3:9). I believe as you do and I rest in that hope of eternal life that comes through the Son.

Jn 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Mediate]

I don't know what for. You seem from your posts, to be quite happy saying all sorts of things, that are not scriptural.

Indeed I must be then.

What concern is it of yours what I say?

Look at yourself, not me.

Your beliefs are not shaken by what I say. And I am not God. Nor the Bible.

If someone wishes to challenge any of it, anybody can read the Bible and do so.

 

[Mediate]

I agree we cannot judge their hearts. However, I think your language is too soft and misses something very important.

Their behavior isn't just 'not Christ-like' it is ANTI-CHRIST. It goes directly against Jesus' plea for compassion and loving your neighbors and even your enemies. They are contrary to putting God ahead of all things. They are dripping with pride and they hide behind the American constitution, NOT the Word of God.

Westboro destroys Christianity from the inside. We need to call it out for what it is. What fellowship can light have with darkness?

The light doesn't come from finger pointing. It comes from within. By example.

Be the light you wish to see in the world.

People only see the Jesus you show them, not the one you order them to be.

 

[Katy-follower]

What concern is it of yours what I say?

Look at yourself, not me.

Your beliefs are not shaken by what I say.

Matthew 12:36-37: "But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

While you don't shake our beliefs, many come to these forums as guests and they read what is shared here. You could be leading others astray with your words that are not scriptural. You could be keeping others from the truth as they may buy into what you share.

Your avatar is very offensive and says a lot about your beliefs. Maybe you should think about replacing it with "what would Jesus do" rather than looking to regular men for answers.

There will be a coming world leader who will try to being peace. He will be known as antichrist but many will be deceived and will trust him. I hope you don't fall for that deception also! There can be no unity among religions that teach falsehoods. There is only ONE truth, ONE way, not several. You may choose the way of Ghandi (the way of the world), but I choose the way of Jesus.

 

[Katy-follower]

We are all the goats.

I agree with what Jimmy said in response to this.

This world consists of two groups (Red are those born again, children of God)...

Narrow Road - Broad Road
Wheat - Tares (weeds)
Sheep - Goats

The goats/tares/those on the broad road are those that are not saved by the blood of Jesus, because they have not put their faith in Him alone as atonement for their sins, they've not been born again.

All that are born again have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. This has to happen before a person dies otherwise they will remain lost for eternity.

 

[Mediate]

Don't I take the price if I 'lead other people astray' Katy?

If I cause a man to stumble, it's me who pays for it. Not you.

How is it any more offensive than anything else in here? Don't be absurd. Ghandi was a great man and did more for this world than you or I likely ever will.

Just because Ghandi was Hindu, or Mohammed was Muslim, or The Dalai Lama is Buddhist, does not mean they are any less righteous than me or you.

Do you ever wonder, Katy, why there ARE different religions on Earth? Different languages? Or different cultures?

In your eyes most of the world is condemned to go to Hell after being taught their religion is the only way to get to paradise.

You have been taught that Christianity is the one true religion. As have Muslims, among others.

But you know what, the gate can't be THAT narrow. How many 'Christians' are there? 2 Billion?

And you believe you are one of the elect? I don't even believe that I am one of the elect.

Humility is a tremendous thing.

It's a shame so many 'Christians' have no idea what it is.

If your idea of 'What Jesus did', is being so strict and blind that you put yourself above all others as an 'elect', and your way is the only way, then I am glad I have Ghandi there rather than the Jesus you see.

But thankfully, that is not the Jesus I see. The Jesus I know requires me to ask the questions I ask myself. To challenge the views I am taught through denomination.

Ghandi had a great idea about Jesus teachings. A great interpretation. As did the Dalai Lamas. As did many of the disciples of Jesus.

However, I pity the modern day version.

 

[Mediate]

And it makes no difference what I say to you, or anyone. I am a 'heretic' in your eyes. A sinner.

Well, I can tell you truthfully, I don't deserve heaven. I certainly don't. But neither do you.

 

[Mediate]

And in fact if my picture is offensive, what about the people with pictures of King Billy or some preacher or pastor on their profile? Is that ok because those people were 'Christian?'

Martin Luther then, should I have?

Martin Luther caused a division that has been a war ever since. He challenged the rituals in the church of the time. Self professed Christian.

King Billy fought in wars. Self professed Christian.

The popes have incited wars too. Self professed Christian.

I am neither Protestant, Catholic, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Calvanist, Mormon, Evangelical, Universalist or any denomination.

I am me. You are you.

Jesus is Jesus. God is God.

We are all one. Not separate. Not on different levels. Different plains, realms, or stature in God's eyes.

We are equal.

I sinned. You sinned. You'll be judged more harshly than someone who doesn't know better though.

So, in theory, you might be judged more harshly than a Muslim. They didn't know better than you.

Trust me, when the time comes, we'll all be on even keel.

The righteous will put themselves below. The first will be last.

The servant is the most Holy position of all. The sacrifice. The lowest of the low. The 'condemned'. The hated by society. The 'undesirables'.

And I'd much rather be an undesirable.