Can you want to be saved and not be?

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Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#1
I'm wondering, if its possible for God to ignore your pleas for salvation and willingness to be his? I know salvation isnt based on works but it still feels like I'm not doing enough or am enough to be saved, or the things I cant do are holding me back from it.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,755
1,829
113
#2
I'm wondering, if its possible for God to ignore your pleas for salvation and willingness to be his? I know salvation isnt based on works but it still feels like I'm not doing enough or am enough to be saved, or the things I cant do are holding me back from it.
Feelings lie. Mark Lowry had a great routine about feeling saved... let's see if I can find it nope but it went something along the lines of having to get up at 4:30 in the morning and how he wasn't at all a morning person and he concludes it with when he got up at 4:30 in the morning he did not look saved, he did not feel saved, but when Jesus comes back around 4:30 in the morning (because somewhere it's always close to 4:30 in the morning) he's gonna go with him.

And the only other thing I have to say is... if God went to all the trouble of sending Jesus to die so he could have you back, what makes you think he's now going to make it difficult for you to be his?
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#3
oh dear,
hear we go again = do ya'll think this is just 'another 'ager baiter' question???
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#4
oh dear,
hear we go again = do ya'll think this is just 'another 'ager baiter' question???
I am legitimately concerned about my salvation. Thankfully there are people here willing to help. I am grateful to them and I have no deceitful intentions if that's what you mean. I have very few places to turn to to discuss these type of questions. If I'm going to get heckled here I will find another Christian forum.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,958
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#5
your 'X' is pure BS, along with your 'claim of being 'HECKLED', this is like really 'bad-theatre',
you just keep on exposing your 'dark-spirit' and the way that 'it controls YOU'...
we say this in Love for you...
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#6
your 'X' is pure BS, along with your 'claim of being 'HECKLED', this is like really 'bad-theatre',
you just keep on exposing your 'dark-spirit' and the way that 'it controls YOU'...
we say this in Love for you...
I'm going through cancer treatment, I am sucidal and I'm really freaking out here. Is this showing "Love" to someone in a bind? You are incredibly rude.
 

Platosgal

Active member
Mar 17, 2020
277
177
43
#7
I am legitimately concerned about my salvation. Thankfully there are people here willing to help. I am grateful to them and I have no deceitful intentions if that's what you mean. I have very few places to turn to to discuss these type of questions. If I'm going to get heckled here I will find another Christian forum.
The fact that you are concerned
Displays a level of connection and respect for God.
The opposite of love is indifference
Your question proves you are not indifferent
So, to have your emotions moved
Towards the consciousness of God
Is of value
We all have feelings, experiences doubts, we live and breathe in this confusing world and it's a journey. You have inside you a compass that directs your journey.
That is the consciousness of God. A part of you desires to be right with him to know him. Well, that tells me you are on the right path.
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#8
The fact that you are concerned
Displays a level of connection and respect for God.
The opposite of love is indifference
Your question proves you are not indifferent
So, to have your emotions moved
Towards the consciousness of God
Is of value
We all have feelings, experiences doubts, we live and breathe in this confusing world and it's a journey. You have inside you a compass that directs your journey.
That is the consciousness of God. A part of you desires to be right with him to know him. Well, that tells me you are on the right path.
Thank you so much ! 😭🙏 That made me tear up 😭❤❤❤
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,976
3,202
113
#9
Thank you so much ! 😭🙏 That made me tear up 😭❤❤❤
Koji,

My goodness. With all the medical challenges you have already been through and are going through now, it's no wonder why you feel so anxious and weary. I certainly would be, too.

There is actually a lot that you share in your posts that I can relate to. I grew up in, and am still part of, church denominations that believe someone can be of the faith, but choose to walk away. On the other hand, I have very dear friends whom I highly respect who believe in once saved, always saved, but after years of studying on my own, I have never been able to accept that for my own self. This is NOT a criticism to anyone who believes in once saved, always saved -- it's just something that for me, personally, has never "stuck." In all honesty, it's probably for my own protection because like you, I struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts.

I wish I could bring myself to believe in once saved, always saved, but if I truly did, I would then see suicide as a viable option. Instead, I was raised to believe that it is an immediate ticket to hell.

When I was in Lutheran school, we used to ask our pastors and teachers questions such as: If a Christian (let's raise the stakes and say it's a pastor,) is purposely speeding in his car (clearly sinning by breaking the law,) then gets into a crash and dies, will he still go to heaven?

If I could go back, I would give the story a modern-day twist -- If a married pastor was text flirting with his young secretary whom he had a crush on but had not committed a physical sin with (yet,) then got into a crash and died, would he still go to heaven?

The pastors and teachers could never give us a straight answer. All they could say was, "God knows your heart; God is sovereign; God will make a just judgment."

From what I understand, my friends who believe in once saved, always saved, would say that if either or both of the pastors were truly saved then nothing could keep them from entering into heaven; but if they didn't go to heaven, that just means they were never saved to begin with.

I try to understand, and I try to accept, but something holds me back, too. I'm not sure what that is.

Because of things like this, I struggle with the assurance of salvation constantly, just like you. And I would struggle even more so if I had been through half of what you've been through and was facing a life-threatening medical condition, especially at such ay oung age. You are extremely courageous, and my heart truly goes out to you. I'm sorry I can't offer much wisdom about the physical obstacles you are fighting, but I am very familiar with what you describe as your spiritual battle.

I'm sorry that this post might not be very helpful -- Cinder and Platosgirl gave you some excellent feedback, so I hope what they said helps.

I truly apologize for not being able to write something more upbeat, but what I really wanted to express is that you are not the only one who struggles with such thoughts -- not at all.

I will keep you in my prayers -- that God will give you peace, excellent medical care, healing, and reassurance that you are His child, because of your heart's desire to follow Him -- and nothing will keep you from His presence.

God bless you, Koji, and please keep us posted on how things are going.
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#10
Koji,

My goodness. With all the medical challenges you have already been through and are going through now, it's no wonder why you feel so anxious and weary. I certainly would be, too.

There is actually a lot that you share in your posts that I can relate to. I grew up in, and am still part of, church denominations that believe someone can be of the faith, but choose to walk away. On the other hand, I have very dear friends whom I highly respect who believe in once saved, always saved, but after years of studying on my own, I have never been able to accept that for my own self. This is NOT a criticism to anyone who believes in once saved, always saved -- it's just something that for me, personally, has never "stuck." In all honesty, it's probably for my own protection because like you, I struggle with depression and suicidal thoughts.

I wish I could bring myself to believe in once saved, always saved, but if I truly did, I would then see suicide as a viable option. Instead, I was raised to believe that it is an immediate ticket to hell.

When I was in Lutheran school, we used to ask our pastors and teachers questions such as: If a Christian (let's raise the stakes and say it's a pastor,) is purposely speeding in his car (clearly sinning by breaking the law,) then gets into a crash and dies, will he still go to heaven?

If I could go back, I would give the story a modern-day twist -- If a married pastor was text flirting with his young secretary whom he had a crush on but had not committed a physical sin with (yet,) then got into a crash and died, would he still go to heaven?

The pastors and teachers could never give us a straight answer. All they could say was, "God knows your heart; God is sovereign; God will make a just judgment."

From what I understand, my friends who believe in once saved, always saved, would say that if either or both of the pastors were truly saved then nothing could keep them from entering into heaven; but if they didn't go to heaven, that just means they were never saved to begin with.

I try to understand, and I try to accept, but something holds me back, too. I'm not sure what that is.

Because of things like this, I struggle with the assurance of salvation constantly, just like you. And I would struggle even more so if I had been through half of what you've been through and was facing a life-threatening medical condition, especially at such ay oung age. You are extremely courageous, and my heart truly goes out to you. I'm sorry I can't offer much wisdom about the physical obstacles you are fighting, but I am very familiar with what you describe as your spiritual battle.

I'm sorry that this post might not be very helpful -- Cinder and Platosgirl gave you some excellent feedback, so I hope what they said helps.

I truly apologize for not being able to write something more upbeat, but what I really wanted to express is that you are not the only one who struggles with such thoughts -- not at all.

I will keep you in my prayers -- that God will give you peace, excellent medical care, healing, and reassurance that you are His child, because of your heart's desire to follow Him -- and nothing will keep you from His presence.

God bless you, Koji, and please keep us posted on how things are going.
I personally do believe in OSAS, as you said from a perspective of suicide this is a bit of a conflict. It reminds me of another conundrum. Age of culpability, is similar although not 100% stated biblically but hinted at, that anyone under a certain age would automatically go to heaven if something awful happened to them. While I believe in this too, does it mean abortion is okay? Personally I don't think so but from a secular perspective one can draw that conclusion. Perhaps its hinted at so people will not justify things like abortion if the bible is vague about it? I think perhaps suicide is the same way. Its clearly was not intended by God as an alternative.
 

G00WZ

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
1,074
324
83
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#11
Once you're saved that's pretty much a wrap. Your job is to hold God to His words and promises in faith.

Now when it boils down to salvation different Christians have different views about what salvation means, some just think
being saved = only going to heaven when you die.

I believe a person can be saved and have little to no idea what they're supposed to be doing though, because that used to
be me when i still ran with the mainstream.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,976
3,202
113
#12
I personally do believe in OSAS, as you said from a perspective of suicide this is a bit of a conflict. It reminds me of another conundrum. Age of culpability, is similar although not 100% stated biblically but hinted at, that anyone under a certain age would automatically go to heaven if something awful happened to them. While I believe in this too, does it mean abortion is okay? Personally I don't think so but from a secular perspective one can draw that conclusion. Perhaps its hinted at so people will not justify things like abortion if the bible is vague about it? I think perhaps suicide is the same way. Its clearly was not intended by God as an alternative.
Exactly.

I have always been someone who wished God would have been more specific in the Bible too, until I read an article in which the author raised the question of what would have happened if God would have said that any child who passed away before the age of 11 would automatically go to heaven?

As you pointed out, how would this affect abortion? And the author also pointed out that even if people allowed their children to live, can you imagine what it would be like the year they turned 10 and had less than a year left? How many parents would kill their own children, believing they were sending them to heaven and thinking it was the most loving, merciful thing that could do as a parent?

I remember also thinking such things as:

* What, exactly, would constitute the child turning 11 years old? Would it be on the same day they were born in general, or did it have to be at the exact time they were born? For someone adopted like me, with no history and a made-up (approximately guessed) birthday, would my parents have had to kill me a month, 3 months, six months, before my 11th birthday "just to be sure", since no one actually knew when I was born?

* If the child DOES have right up until the 11th year after they were born, right down to the minute, how many grief-stricken parents would try to take their children to a place where the time difference was as far behind as possible, just trying to spend any last precious moment with their child? Would this "pass" with God? Or would the child who was "sent home" as close to their birth time as possible have to be in the exact same time zone as where they were born?

* Would church leadership arise and start forcing the murders of children before age 11 in order to "save" them? (Granted, the congregation wouldn't last long at that rate.)

* What if the chosen method of ending the child's life backfired, or didn't work in the way or time frame that was planned? For example, little Sara was born at 10:20 PM on August 2, and her parents want to spend as much time as possible with her before "she goes home."

At 9:00 PM, they administer some kind of drug that is supposed to grant her a painless, peaceful passing into God's arms that is supposed to work in about 30 minutes, so they plan this time for a little leeway, just in case.

What happens if something goes wrong, and Sara survives (with terrible consequences on her health?) Or what happens if Sara doesn't pass away until 11:00 PM, going right past the exact time of her 11th birthday? If degree was that the child must be under 11 years of age to get an automatic heavenly pass, then what happened to Sara if she died 40 minutes "too late"?

It was after reading and thinking about this article that I could understand a bit more of why God isn't more specific about some things. I know it all goes back to trust in God's wisdom and sovereignty, but at the same time, I also know how hard that can be to do.

Just out of curiosity, Koji, does talking about subjects like this help you? Such as, these discussions about Biblical passages or principles? Or does it just make the Scruples worse. :(

I was just thinking that maybe if these talks help you in any way (and takes some of the focus off the constant thoughts of whether or not you're saved, and more on God's character alone,) maybe we can have more discussions like this in the forums?
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#13
Once you're saved that's pretty much a wrap. Your job is to hold God to His words and promises in faith.

Now when it boils down to salvation different Christians have different views about what salvation means, some just think
being saved = only going to heaven when you die.

I believe a person can be saved and have little to no idea what they're supposed to be doing though, because that used to
be me when i still ran with the mainstream.
Sometimes I feel like "Should be doing more," but I know its not by works. I had just read an article today that was blaming a recent event on "Fundamental Christiany" it stated "Calvinist protestants require people to live a blame free life despite believing everything is preordained" this is a article written by the far left with clearly no knowledge of Christianity, Calvinism and apologetics and the like and it showed. However it did get me thinking that maybe my "Fruit" should be more apparent.
 
Aug 2, 2009
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#14
Ephesians 2:8 NLT:

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#15
Exactly.

I have always been someone who wished God would have been more specific in the Bible too, until I read an article in which the author raised the question of what would have happened if God would have said that any child who passed away before the age of 11 would automatically go to heaven?

As you pointed out, how would this affect abortion? And the author also pointed out that even if people allowed their children to live, can you imagine what it would be like the year they turned 10 and had less than a year left? How many parents would kill their own children, believing they were sending them to heaven and thinking it was the most loving, merciful thing that could do as a parent?

I remember also thinking such things as:

* What, exactly, would constitute the child turning 11 years old? Would it be on the same day they were born in general, or did it have to be at the exact time they were born? For someone adopted like me, with no history and a made-up (approximately guessed) birthday, would my parents have had to kill me a month, 3 months, six months, before my 11th birthday "just to be sure", since no one actually knew when I was born?

* If the child DOES have right up until the 11th year after they were born, right down to the minute, how many grief-stricken parents would try to take their children to a place where the time difference was as far behind as possible, just trying to spend any last precious moment with their child? Would this "pass" with God? Or would the child who was "sent home" as close to their birth time as possible have to be in the exact same time zone as where they were born?

* Would church leadership arise and start forcing the murders of children before age 11 in order to "save" them? (Granted, the congregation wouldn't last long at that rate.)

* What if the chosen method of ending the child's life backfired, or didn't work in the way or time frame that was planned? For example, little Sara was born at 10:20 PM on August 2, and her parents want to spend as much time as possible with her before "she goes home."

At 9:00 PM, they administer some kind of drug that is supposed to grant her a painless, peaceful passing into God's arms that is supposed to work in about 30 minutes, so they plan this time for a little leeway, just in case.

What happens if something goes wrong, and Sara survives (with terrible consequences on her health?) Or what happens if Sara doesn't pass away until 11:00 PM, going right past the exact time of her 11th birthday? If degree was that the child must be under 11 years of age to get an automatic heavenly pass, then what happened to Sara if she died 40 minutes "too late"?

It was after reading and thinking about this article that I could understand a bit more of why God isn't more specific about some things. I know it all goes back to trust in God's wisdom and sovereignty, but at the same time, I also know how hard that can be to do.

Just out of curiosity, Koji, does talking about subjects like this help you? Such as, these discussions about Biblical passages or principles? Or does it just make the Scruples worse. :(

I was just thinking that maybe if these talks help you in any way (and takes some of the focus off the constant thoughts of whether or not you're saved, and more on God's character alone,) maybe we can have more discussions like this in the forums?
No I'm fine discussing it here. And I agree, not to mention the fact that everyone "Male or Female" do not legitimately mature at the same rate and its really difficult to tell when they would in fact be at "this age" is almost impossible to know. It would indeed be an awful thing for something like this to be implemented. Abortion of course I think has not what he intended.
 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
2,280
2,473
113
64
#16
Hello @Kojikun, I agree w/@cinder, our feelings often lie to/deceive us into believing something that simply isn't true, and whenever it's about salvation, you can also bet that our common enemy (the prince of the power of the air) is behind those feelings! :oops:

This is why it's so important to 1. continue to grow daily in your knowledge and understanding of God's word (and thereby, the truth) .. John 17:17; Romans 12:2, and then to 2. consciously choose to believe/trust God by taking Him at His word, no matter how much Satan and your feelings are trying to convince you not to.

It's certainly honoring and pleasing to God when we choose to do so :)

Whenever your feelings are telling you something confusing, something that doesn't seem right to you and/or something that you know stands in opposition to what the Bible tells us is true, take those thoughts "captive" .. 2 Corinthians 10:5, and give them over to the Lord Jesus to deal with instead.

We are also commanded to "submit to God" and to "resist the devil" .. James 4:7, so that the wonderful promise that comes along with those commands, "and he will flee from you", can be fulfilled (and I believe that taking our sinful thoughts "captive" is the principle way that we do that .. resist the devil, that is). Of course, if you miss him, don't worry because, sadly, he'll be back :eek:, and you'll have to go through all of it again (then again, Satan tends to send his demons around to bother the faithful among us far more often than he does the lukewarm, so his sending his demons to tempt you can be taken as a sign that you are not only a true believer, but a faithful one to boot (y)).

Always remember that the Lord knows the end from the beginning .. Isaiah 46:9-10, so He knew exactly what and who He was getting when He decided to save you (and me), but He chose to save us anyway :), so there will never be anything about you that will ever be a surprise to Him :)

Finally, when you 'feel' like you may not be worthy of being a Christian, just remember that NO ONE is, and then go back to the foot of the Cross and remember all that He did/is doing for you, and how VERY much He loves you (so much so that He chose to die for you, yes, so that you would never have to live w/o Him, nor He w/o you in the eternity to come).

God bless you (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25)

~Deut
p.s. - remember what 'kind' of people the Lord Jesus chose/chooses to save (see below):

Mark 2
17 Jesus said to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Romans 4
5 To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked (ungodly), his faith is credited as righteousness.
 

G00WZ

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
1,074
324
83
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#17
Sometimes I feel like "Should be doing more," but I know its not by works. I had just read an article today that was blaming a recent event on "Fundamental Christiany" it stated "Calvinist protestants require people to live a blame free life despite believing everything is preordained" this is a article written by the far left with clearly no knowledge of Christianity, Calvinism and apologetics and the like and it showed. However it did get me thinking that maybe my "Fruit" should be more apparent.
Religious mainstream Christians often do that, make you feel like you're not doing enough and this and that, that's why i limit time around them. If you're trying to grow you really can't have them around because they'll gate-keep you from reaching maturity, especially when God himself is trying to show you things.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
12,976
3,202
113
#18
Sometimes I feel like "Should be doing more," but I know its not by works. I had just read an article today that was blaming a recent event on "Fundamental Christiany" it stated "Calvinist protestants require people to live a blame free life despite believing everything is preordained" this is a article written by the far left with clearly no knowledge of Christianity, Calvinism and apologetics and the like and it showed. However it did get me thinking that maybe my "Fruit" should be more apparent.
Religious mainstream Christians often do that, make you feel like you're not doing enough and this and that, that's why i limit time around them. If you're trying to grow you really can't have them around because they'll gate-keep you from reaching maturity, especially when God himself is trying to show you things.
Koji,

If I'm straying too far from your original topic, please just let me know. I'm not trying to barge in or re-direct your thread at all, but I've noticed in other threads that productive discussions seem to help you? So since this subject was brought up, I thought I'd ask...

I struggle with the thought of "not doing enough" all the time.

I always wonder if the fact that most Christians feel the need to run themselves ragged comes from the double whammy that comes from both church culture (which seems to communicate that whoever is "doing the most for Jesus" "wins",) and the modern culture we live in that tells us we have to produce tangible results every waking moment or we're wasting our lives away.

At the same time, when you read in the Bible about people who were tortured and martyred for their faith, and know it's still happening to other Christians in these modern times, one can't help but feel like a spiritual sloth.

How do you know think you can tell when you're "doing enough" or when you "should be doing more"? (I'm specifically asking this in response to Koji and G00's posts, but it's an open question for anyone.)

Again, Koji, just tell me if I'm out of line, and I apologize if I am. I just thought that since the topic came up, maybe you'd like some other's thoughts on it as well...
 

G00WZ

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
1,074
324
83
35
#19
Koji,

If I'm straying too far from your original topic, please just let me know. I'm not trying to barge in or re-direct your thread at all, but I've noticed in other threads that productive discussions seem to help you? So since this subject was brought up, I thought I'd ask...

I struggle with the thought of "not doing enough" all the time.

I always wonder if the fact that most Christians feel the need to run themselves ragged comes from the double whammy that comes from both church culture (which seems to communicate that whoever is "doing the most for Jesus" "wins",) and the modern culture we live in that tells us we have to produce tangible results every waking moment or we're wasting our lives away.

At the same time, when you read in the Bible about people who were tortured and martyred for their faith, and know it's still happening to other Christians in these modern times, one can't help but feel like a spiritual sloth.

How do you know think you can tell when you're "doing enough" or when you "should be doing more"? (I'm specifically asking this in response to Koji and G00's posts, but it's an open question for anyone.)

Again, Koji, just tell me if I'm out of line, and I apologize if I am. I just thought that since the topic came up, maybe you'd like some other's thoughts on it as well...
You know because you are working in faith. Like for example how many times should a bird peck or fly and chirp before it's made official?. There is no amount of times because it is what it is and it is what it does. It has no need to prove itself because it is already in the state of and a practitioner of what it was meant to be and what it was meant to do.

Man was made to apply and have faith in God/Christ and to apply it in life. Many times it is shown in the bible that doing it has it's benefits. People have received salvation from it, healing and all kinds of saving occurred. I even have many testimonies of my own of being saved from things. So the concept of not doing enough to me is pointless because i am doing/ practicing exactly what i was called to do.

The mainstream does other things like spending their time deifying and being religious rather than putting Christ's teachings into practice...I won't get into all of it, but that's basically what they do and teach in a nutshell. They basically have people running ragged because they themselves aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing....Something about the blind leading the blind and whatnot.

I don't claim to know or have the answers to everything, i barely know what i know, but i know i can't grow or produce results in the mainstream.
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
3,981
2,491
113
#20
Koji,

If I'm straying too far from your original topic, please just let me know. I'm not trying to barge in or re-direct your thread at all, but I've noticed in other threads that productive discussions seem to help you? So since this subject was brought up, I thought I'd ask...

I struggle with the thought of "not doing enough" all the time.

I always wonder if the fact that most Christians feel the need to run themselves ragged comes from the double whammy that comes from both church culture (which seems to communicate that whoever is "doing the most for Jesus" "wins",) and the modern culture we live in that tells us we have to produce tangible results every waking moment or we're wasting our lives away.

At the same time, when you read in the Bible about people who were tortured and martyred for their faith, and know it's still happening to other Christians in these modern times, one can't help but feel like a spiritual sloth.

How do you know think you can tell when you're "doing enough" or when you "should be doing more"? (I'm specifically asking this in response to Koji and G00's posts, but it's an open question for anyone.)

Again, Koji, just tell me if I'm out of line, and I apologize if I am. I just thought that since the topic came up, maybe you'd like some other's thoughts on it as well...
I'm fine with discussing things here. I dont mind going off topic. I dont have to many places to discuss this stuff as social media is getting more and more restrictive, and certain topics are difficult to discuss without potentially getting banned. I try to stay out of debates as I lose my temper to quickly to be of any use in a debate. I think after my operation I will probably start attending church I've been wanting to go too. I'm hoping to get help with my biblical questions there as well.