Failure to launch or failure to parent?

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Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
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#1
This post in Streams really deserved a thread of it's own (IMO).

I've been thinking a lot about the effects of overprotective parenting this week. And I genuinely mean OVERprotective, as in, far beyond what is considered reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

Two of my closest friends (ages 20 and 24) were raised by the most overprotective man I have ever known. The first red flag is that they aren't allowed to move out until some arbitrary future goals have been met (no one is sure what those are..). One might ask, "they're over 18, why don't they just leave?". I used to think the same thing, but now I think they actually can't move out... as in they are completely unprepared to live on their own, much like your average 12 year old would be. I mean, if you were constantly being told "the world is scary and tough. You can't handle it. Follow all my rules and I will be in charge of everything", would you know how or even want to venture out into the world?

In case you think I'm exaggerating about the overprotection...
-The daughter (23 y/o) has graduated with a bachelors degree in biology, and is preparing to enter medical school. She is not allowed to drive, unless it's very short distances, and only in "safe" areas like neighborhoods.

-They're not allowed to go anywhere without their parents unless it's a church meeting/bible study. When with the family, they sometimes go on hikes or roadtrips. On roadtrips, they are required to read scripture and sing hymns the entire way. (obviously reading the Word isn't a bad thing, but apparently their dad thinks that if they aren't kept busy with 'holy' activities like reading the bible, they will do 'unholy' things in the car. what?)

- When attending approved church meetings, they must be back home by 9 pm, even on weekends.

- They are required to hold jobs but aren't allowed to manage their money themselves. Dad must approve any purchases.

And the list goes on..

Anyway, the reason I've been thinking about this is because their parents are both out of the country for a couple weeks, so I've been amused at how much my friends are enjoying their new-found freedom. Last night after one of our life group meetings, they hung around until *gasp* 10 pm. I feel bad for them. Although I love them and enjoy knowing them, when it comes to basic life skills, they are severely stunted. There are just so many things they don't know how to do for themselves.. and I doubt they'll ever learn them while under dad's eye.

It just got me thinking about parenting and the line between protecting your kids (actual children, not young adults) and giving them the freedom to discover and grow and make mistakes.

Sorry for the long ramble. I'm tired. Goodnight.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
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#2
While some protection is not a bad thing overprotection really does not help a child. When my daughter was 8 years old I took her shopping to pick out how she wanted to decorate her bedroom as it needed to be repainted. The room went from the sunshine yellow color I had picked for her to start with years before to a turquoise blue that she picked herself and then I allowed her to pick out the bedspread and curtains she wanted which was a lavender/white Disney city scene with cats on it and her room was adorable and she at 8 learned to start making choices on her own... We have to teach our children to be able to live in this world as we parents won't be around forever.... I think they are doing a disservice to these two children which are now adults that I venture a guess are a little clueless about making their own choices.
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Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
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Jan 15, 2011
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#3
That's the story in 40% of households with boys and 80% of households with girls, in India. Parents are so caring that they will even get you "married off". That means they will find our spouse and get you married to them. And even after your marriage they will have the last word in any decision you take. E.g. when to have kids, what car to buy, which city to live in, kids' schooling, etc.

Believe it or not, my mom knew of a family where the dad spanked his son even after the son had a kid of his own!

We take the 'spare the rod, spoil the child' proverb to the other extreme. :rolleyes:
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Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
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#4
Not only is this a huge disservice to the children (failure in parenting), but it is a disservice to the parents as well. How can they really have a life after kids if they force their kids to Stay kids?

I've an uncle who was married for the first (&only) time in his mid 40's to a woman in her mid 30's. Neither of them had ever lived outside of their parents home prior to the marriage. BASIC things, like making breakfast, shopping for groceries, getting themselves up in the morning, and doing laundry were challenges for them.
Having my kids do age appropriate chores around the house teaches them life skills that they will need in college and beyond (and sometimes the skills they need to survive a weekend at their mom's!). As a father, I feel that part of my job is to teach my kids to not need me, because I will likely not outlive them.

Sorta reminds me of going off to college and meeting the kids whose maid did their laundry and meeting the kids who were so utterly sheltered as homeschoolers that they were incapable of making it outside of that protective bubble and partied themselves right out of school and into a rehab in a year or less. {Note: not knocking homeschooling in general, just knocking overly sheltering your kids.}
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Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
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#5
Totally understand what you mean. One can find overbearing parents all over the world, but I feel like the there is a greater concentration of them in Eastern societies. The family in my earlier post is Taiwanese. My mom is from the Philippines, and admits she would probably have been like that had she not married my caucasian father and been introduced to his more relaxed parenting style. (My mom is overbearing in some ways, but nowhere near the father I described earlier).

What's even more peculiar is he extends his controlling nature beyond his family sometimes. He has personally told me that I should get another degree on top of my music degree, because music teachers don't make money and I should get a "real job". I just smiled and said "thanks for the advice". He's said the same thing to my fiance haha. One time my friends and I joined their family on one of their day trips out to a lake, and then when we got there, we weren't allowed to go kayaking on the lake, because the dad said the water was too cold and he said that was dangerous. In the spring, this same family was actually vacationing in Taiwan at the same time that my fiance and I were in the country, so we planned a day to pick up his adult children and take them to Taipei for some sightseeing with some of our friends. Their dad was so concerned that we were going to be in danger, despite the fact that all of us were in our 20's, almost everyone except me spoke fluent chinese, and we had 3 people with us who were very familiar with the city. He let us go on one condition.. that we take a 40 year old chaperone with us. The chaperone was a good sport, though, and realized how ridiculous the whole thing was. He drove us to Taipei, dropped us off at the mall, and said "you are adults. I will read my book at the tea shop. Call me when you're finished exploring and I'll pick you up".

I just... *cringe* I literally feel like a 5-year-old every time I'm with that man. Seriously. I feel like a little kid going on a field trip with a teacher and being bound by rules that are designed for kids who don't know how to stay safe in public situations. Imagine what it's like being raised ​in that environment! O_O



Control freak indeed, but I have often wondered why. I now think it's good-natured parental love that has been corrupted by fear.
"I'm afraid my child won't be safe, so I better not let her do that"
"I'm afraid my child won't have a good future unless she enters ______ career field. I'd better make sure that's the career path she chooses, whether she likes it or not. It's what's best for her."
"I'm afraid my child will spend her money irresponsibly, so I'd better hold on to all of it."
"I'm afraid my child won't make the right choice, so I'd better make all her choices for her"

Obviously I have no parenting experience of my own, but I think it's important to learn how to relinquish control of an adult child's life and simply entrust them to the Lord. I hope and pray that I can do that someday. I know that's probably a lot easier said than done, but the fact remains that a child's season of being under a parents practical care is a temporary one, while his/her season being in Christ's hands is an eternal one.
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Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
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Jan 15, 2011
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#6
That's terrible! I learned to do these things early on (and many more), at least by my late-childhood/early teens. Doing laundry (correctly) was a little more challenging, but even that's not beyond young people. But then I'm reminded that there are adults who don't know how to do the dishes or prepare a very basic meal. It must be very debilitating.
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Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
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#7
This series of posts really had me thinking for a bit (thus moving all of them here for continuity). We see so many more "children" in their late teens and twenties remaining under their parents roof for years without any evidence of them making preparations to begin a life of their own. Mind you I'm not talking about people who are in college or otherwise being assisted by their parents specifically because they are actively working on a "better" future. At times I wonder how much of this phenomena is a result of "failure to launch" and how much of it is a result of "failure to parent."

My sister and I were raised by parents who saw it as their obligation to fully prepare us for adulthood by the time we were eighteen. In our teen years the shift towards independence was increasingly obvious as curfew times were increased, financial independence was encouraged and necessary skills were taught.

At sixteen driving came with a price it was not considered to be a right. If we wanted to drive the family cars we paid for the cost of our being on the insurance policy and Dad figured the cost per mile of driving their vehicles. When it came time to purchase our own vehicles we had to buy our own (Mom and Dad loaned us what we didn't have complete with a loan contract).

At eighteen we were considered to be fully independent even though both of us chose to stay at home for a few years. House rules vanished other than those that had to do with common courtesy such as calling and letting our folks know if we were going to be home very late (or not at all). We had two choices either in school full time or paying rent.

The concept of parents either failing to prepare their kids for adulthood by being overprotective/doing everything for their kids, or failing to "force" adulthood on those children at an appropriate age is foreign to me. I can't figure out what a parent's logic is in this failure to complete the most basic task of parenting which is preparing their children to become independent.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
17,957
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#8
"Failure to launch" is becoming more prevalent these days. There are even training "boot camps" for people who are technically adult but still don't know how to get up before noon, how to cook a meal, etc. Frankly if I were a parent I'd want to teach my kids the basic skills of living... so they wouldn't have to stay in my house the rest of their lives. I would think parents would want to get their kids ready for the big world if only to be able to get them out of the house when they're grown.

I remember a story about a farmer who had his three sons working in the corn field. A neighbor drove by and mentioned his boys seemed to be working hard. "Yup." The neighbor said, "Why are you working those boys so hard, man. You don't need that much corn. You KNOW you don't need that much.

The farmer said, "I'm not raising corn. I'm raising boys."
 
H

Ho11y

Guest
#9
This was kind of my life...... in a way. I didn't know how to basic things because no one taught me. Even my understanding of how to communicate was very limited. I can't tell you how many times someone would say to me, How do you not know how to do this? or How is it no one taught you about this or that?
I was so ill prepared.

There were a lot of us kids and so for the people who raised me, my cousins, brothers, sister it was all about enduring our presence until they could get us all out of their house. So there was never any time spent trying to teach us anything.
So i kind of got the other end of it. Not someone being over protective as much as just not caring to prepare us.
For a long time i felt like a kid trapped in an adults body, because of my almost helplessness in knowing how to do anything adults do.


Just my two cents.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
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Jan 15, 2011
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#10
Holly, an old friend's wife was the youngest of eight or nine kids and she mas mommy and daddy's "baby". She married my friend shortly after she turned eighteen and had a lot of learning to do quick. Her mom did a good job on raising her when it came to cooking (mom owned a small restaurant) but other than that she was just shy of completely clueless. She didn't know how to put gas in a car because dad always would take her car down and fill it up for her and made sure that regular maintenance was done. She was completely clueless about finances because although she had worked in mom's restaurant and earned a paycheck, her parents paid for everything from her car, credit card, etc.

Needless to say the first bit of their marriage was a bit rough on my friend because he had to finish raising his wife.
 
May 9, 2012
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#11
HEY! This is my world! I know this feeling and it's absolutely miserable. It makes you feel like you're a baby all over again. I know parents like that have the best intentions because after all you are their little baby...but sometimes, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Sometimes, I just wish my parents would understand. However, with my recent move to Illinois to be with my grandparents for some time and find a job here, I think I might be able to do this a lot easier.
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#12
Holly, an old friend's wife was the youngest of eight or nine kids and she mas mommy and daddy's "baby". She married my friend shortly after she turned eighteen and had a lot of learning to do quick. Her mom did a good job on raising her when it came to cooking (mom owned a small restaurant) but other than that she was just shy of completely clueless. She didn't know how to put gas in a car because dad always would take her car down and fill it up for her and made sure that regular maintenance was done. She was completely clueless about finances because although she had worked in mom's restaurant and earned a paycheck, her parents paid for everything from her car, credit card, etc.

Needless to say the first bit of their marriage was a bit rough on my friend because he had to finish raising his wife.
This is one reason why it should be understood..
That a husbands role actually entails more than that of a father, teaching guiding and yes correcting when necessary for the remaining years of her life and should not be resented for their efforts.
Especially if the parents leaned more toward spoiling a child rather than parenting.
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,228
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#13
This is one reason why it should be understood..
That a husbands role actually entails more than that of a father, teaching guiding and yes correcting when necessary for the remaining years of her life and should not be resented for their efforts.
Especially if the parents leaned more toward spoiling a child rather than parenting.
On that note, I have a question. If a woman needs guidance, then it should be accepted that her husband will provide that guidance in loving care, not dominance, correct?

What happens then if it is the man who needs the guidance?

This is NOT a cut on men, but merely an observation. Sure, there are plenty of irresponsible women out there. But is the answer that they should find a husband to lead them? So what happens when the man is the one who needs lessons in growing up? Does it mean he simply shouldn't marry until someone teaches him how to be a man?

Here's what I mean: in my time of being single, I've encountered lots of men who are the only child, raised by Mama or Gramma, the baby of the family, the only boy, etc. And of course this isn't always the case, but what if this guy was raised in a situation where he was treated as the family prince, coddled and catered to, and now believes his wife should be part of the entourage that serves him?

He doesn't know how to do laundry. He can't cook. He doesn't clean and doesn't care about his living conditions because Mom has always done it for him. He couldn't balance a checkbook to save his life, and comes home with expensive guns and toys because that's just what he's always done. He is the head of the household, and he will buy what he wants. In the meantime, the wife must check all her purchases with him. And yet the wife is better at saving and keeping track of finances than he is.

You might think I'm being extreme, but I see this kind of thing over and over, especially as I get older. Of the few boyfriends I had, none of them believed that a woman could actually manage the household finances, and one wound up having to declare bankruptcy. If a man is going to "lead" me in the area of finances, I want to know he has a track record of responsible budgeting and knows the difference between CD's, stocks, mutual funds, and how they work when it comes to investing our savings.

So if it's the man who needs lessons in growing up... Does it mean he is unfit as husband material and should wait until he has more wisdom and experience, or does he jump right in and try to "lead" a woman... while not having a clue himself?

I personally feel that most people should wait until they are able to live independently, rather than relying on someone else (man or woman) to be their surrogate Continuing Ed parent.

(Praise God for all our responsible, well-taught, loving and encouraging men out there. You are a rare find indeed.)
 
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JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
14,020
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#14
All I know is that allowing my daughter to make different choices at an early age gave her confidence. As an adult who is now 34 she has been successful at jobs and responsibilities that come along being an adult. She has never asked me for financial help has figured out her own problems and if she wants or needs advise she will ask for it.
 
Mar 22, 2013
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#16
some of this also related to the economy. I have known a few people who left home was making good cash, then boom 08 hit and then the USA elected an idiot and things never recovered. and they had no choice but to go back home.

kinda hard to pay 800+ a month rent when you only make 500 or a bit more.

Now someone will step in and say "why don't they move?" easier said then done. And very dangerous as you can spend everything on moving only to utterly fail due to false job promises.

And the truth of it is. America in general can not add enough jobs to put everyone to work. quite frank welcome to the 3rd world.
 
M

MidniteWelder

Guest
#17
On that note, I have a question. If a woman needs guidance, then it should be accepted that her husband will provide that guidance in loving care, not dominance, correct?

Either... Or... and sometimes both.
How does Christ love his church.
In all ways.
Not the ways the church dictates, correct?
Otherwise again it is spoiling.

yes sometimes a man will be dominant in certain situations.
Such as:
When he has
1. already tried talking
2. tried communicating again
3. Have to put his foot down and be a little more firm
4. last resort State what he expects and what he will not tolerate...husbands decision is supposed to be the final decision. (I say this in extreme cases such as if the wife is suddenly hanging out with a "male friend coworker a little too often" or spending money like it is no tomorrow draining their funds etc
~Im not speaking in circumstances involving where to go out for dinner)

What happens then if it is the man who needs the guidance?

This is NOT a cut on men, but merely an observation. Sure, there are plenty of irresponsible women out there.
I have seen both men and women being equally irresponsible.
Yes men buy their toys, but the ones I notice doing so already have the house payment made, the car payment set aside and have budgeted for extra things after the major responsibilities have been taken care of.
I have seen when after being responsible and he comes home with a new gun the wife will fire off and complain.
When often the translation to that is:
She could have used the money to go shopping
, but will call him irresponsible.
Actually a wiser thing to do in that scenario is for him to simply consult his wife and say
"hey hun, I saw this gun I'd like to get, do you have any objections?"


But is the answer that they should find a husband to lead them? So what happens when the man is the one who needs lessons in growing up? Does it mean he simply shouldn't marry until someone teaches him how to be a man?

Here's what I mean: in my time of being single, I've encountered lots of men who are the only child, raised by Mama or Gramma, the baby of the family, the only boy, etc. And of course this isn't always the case, but what if this guy was raised in a situation where he was treated as the family prince, coddled and catered to, and now believes his wife should be part of the entourage that serves him?

He doesn't know how to do laundry. He can't cook. He doesn't clean and doesn't care about his living conditions because Mom has always done it for him. He couldn't balance a checkbook to save his life, and comes home with expensive guns and toys because that's just what he's always done. He is the head of the household, and he will buy what he wants. In the meantime, the wife must check all her purchases with him. And yet the wife is better at saving and keeping track of finances than he is.

You might think I'm being extreme, but I see this kind of thing over and over, especially as I get older.
I don't believe you are being extreme because I see this with the female gender as well, often with the independent types who feel they can still live as if they're single while in a Rship because that's what they've been so used to for so many years.
And I agree many men live this way and should recognize their duty, role and responsibility unto the two as a unit and a family.
Often it takes some form of catastrophe to wake either gender out of their selfish mindset.
But counseling on some order could be a preventative measure to help prevent one or the other partner from becoming so frustrated they feel like leaving the Rship for feeling at a loss of what to do and how to solve the situation.

This should be done before things get too extremely out of hand.
For instance not bottling everything up until one person blows up and goes to mothers, or stays at their buddies house.

Of the few boyfriends I had, none of them believed that a woman could actually manage the household finances, and one wound up having to declare bankruptcy. If a man is going to "lead" me in the area of finances, I want to know he has a track record of responsible budgeting and knows the difference between CD's, stocks, mutual funds, and how they work when it comes to investing our savings.

So if it's the man who needs lessons in growing up... Does it mean he is unfit as husband material and should wait until he has more wisdom and experience, or does he jump right in and try to "lead" a woman... while not having a clue himself?

The woman should be wise enough and have enough discernment to recognize what situation she is putting herself under.
She is placing herself under a mans authority when married,
Scripture does not include any criteria or qualifications to be met by the male in order for this to happen.
If this appears to be a double standard, then it may be called what it looks like.
Yes there are many double standards yet they should be accepted whatever the title be.
For instance a man cannot bear a child and be a mother no matter how much he demands or pounds his fist to wanna be one.

We are equally important to the Lord
, Although we must accept God did not say life or all things or our respective gender roles are equal or even fair.
Whether the man is qualified for husband material or not we must always go to scripture.
Much the same if a wife is not fulfilling her role, a husband must always go to God for guidance in how to proceed.
Scripture mandates that while communication is necessary, the husband is still head of the wife.
Within her gentle and loving spirit she could not take the lead "so to speak" but can support and encourage her own husband to seek methods of making better decisions for the "Both" of them rather than just for himself.


I personally feel that most people should wait until they are able to live independently, rather than relying on someone else (man or woman) to be their surrogate Continuing Ed parent.

This could go both ways:
One practicing independence will be more in the habit of independence and tend to default to this method rather than focusing attempts on being a team as one unit with the goals of both being headed toward the same direction.
Like equally yoked oxen. If they are unequeally yoked one will pull one way and the other will pull another direction.
Why? They each want to be independent yet think they can somehow still survive a rship yoked together.
It just doesn't work.
One will pull the other into the ground, make the other trip, drag the other through the mud etc.
Then along comes the Lord with the poking prod and each kick against the pricks that try to guide them back on track.
The man needs to listen to the Lord in order to guide them both because it wasn't designed for the female to lead.
Even if she does and can do so effectively, she may begin to hold a form of resentment toward her husband for having to fulfill a part of the role he should have stepped up to.
So Not saying a lady is incapable to lead or be good at finances, be the bread winner, parent the children, take care of bills, future plans etc.....just that a good leader will usually delegate responsibilities to the one most capable.

A good leader will not often ask someone to do something they are not willing to do themselves.
So it must also be recognized that if all he does is sit around and play xbox while she works and pays the bills, there is a definite amount of enabling going on
Same as if she kept spending and he kept working overtime to feed her habit.
Yes those thing would need to be addressed and if resistance met for the spoiled brat not being able to continue in their enabled behaviors then yep....more assertive methods will likely result.

Because extreme circumstances often call for extreme measures.
IE: If a person is doing drugs...put their butt in rehab and tell em to cry about if they don't like it.
A person with an excessive spending habit, cheating behavior, gambling, habitual liar etc
has an addiction just like a drug addict.


While at times if things are getting too far off path it is good for a lady as his helper to point out where a husband may reconsider better financial decisions etc. if she see's a blatant obstacle in the road.
It would be beneficial in my viewpoint according to scripture for her to pick her battles wisely and accept a loving and gentle quiet spirit in order for the Lord to do his work guiding the husband...so He in turn can then be allowed the opportunity to guide, protect and provide for her.

From what I've read anyway in 1 Cor 11
The head of every man is Christ
And the head of the female is the husband
It only stands to reason that the information will trickle down the pipeline in this same order.
Christ
~Husband
~~Wife
Expecting otherwise would put things out of order and give way to the introduction of chaos.
Our enemy likes this, dissension, contention, hindered prayers etc.
Order being the key element in the unity of the three.


Men by and large are programmed problem solvers, solving problems based more on fact, logic, and reason
not emotion.
Emotions lie, mislead, get things carried away, stir other emotions like anger.
There's a reason why cops and military personnel are taught and trained to remove their emotions from a hostile situation.
Because we don't want to make rash emotionally led decisions when placed in an adverse situation.

Therefore it may take more time for a male to arrive at a solution weighing all possible options rather than making a decision based simply on how he feels at the moment.

If a woman feels her husband is making the wrong decision at any given moment, Simply stating something to the effect of
, "I don't think this is a good idea" doesn't cut it.
Because then he may query being reasonable in listening to her suggestions that if she cannot provide any further than,
"I dont know I just don't feel this is a good idea" it will be dismissed and he will carry out with his original plans for the two of them. Even if those plans include buying a new boat because they will have fun on the weekends and forgo setting aside a college fund for the kids....because they don't have kids yet and the boat can always be resold to recoup initial investment.

She must be able to provide fact logic and reason in order to persuade him.




(Praise God for all our responsible, well-taught, loving and encouraging men out there. You are a rare find indeed.)
I hope all that makes sense as I tried to likewise include some hypothetical scenarios which may or may not have addressed your questions.
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
4,728
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#18
This series of posts really had me thinking for a bit (thus moving all of them here for continuity). We see so many more "children" in their late teens and twenties remaining under their parents roof for years without any evidence of them making preparations to begin a life of their own. Mind you I'm not talking about people who are in college or otherwise being assisted by their parents specifically because they are actively working on a "better" future. At times I wonder how much of this phenomena is a result of "failure to launch" and how much of it is a result of "failure to parent."
I think the "failure to parent" is a consequence of the "failure to launch". As in, if you don't prepare you child(ren) for adulthood, you have failed to launch them into that phase. Consequently, you have failed in your duty as a parent.

The reasons for the "failure to launch" can be many. I will explain a couple of them.

1) Culture: Culture is the primary reason why many parents fail in this aspect. In India it is not the norm for children to live independently. For example, There are many grown up adults who have families on their own but are still unwilling to move out of their parents' home. There are many youths who have chosen a particular profession only because it was what their parents chose for them. So many youths in my church are Christians only because their parents brought them up in the faith (i.e. they have no personal conviction of Christ). You may find it hard to believe but I know of many people like that.

Even today, children are not allowed to move out of their parents' home when they are married. A few of my friends have broken this 'norm', but many still stay with their parents. Sometimes the household can accommodate two siblings with their spouses and their kids, all living with their parents (not the in-laws). Obviously, the dad has the final say and all decisions are taken by him. The wives are under the control of the mom and she oversees all their activities. The kids are also controlled by the parents. I know many of you would have hundreds of questions in your minds, but this is how it usually works in India. Thankfully my parents have learned to be independent through various storms that God allowed in their lives.


2) 'Legalism' in Church: Shouryu was the first person to teach me this term. There are many churches that interpret the Bible's teachings way too literally. Here are some instances -
- (Ephesians 6:1) - 'You have to obey your parents as long as they are alive, irrespective of whether you are independent or not'.
- (Hebrews 13:17) - 'You have to submit yourself to your parents because they are responsible for you towards God.'
- Look at Isaac, Jacob and Joseph - they both grew under the guidance of their parents and God blessed them. God blessed Jacob who dwelt in the tents. On the other hand, Esau was the wild man who lost his birthright and his blessings.
- Isaac did not even choose his wife. It was Abraham who decided to get him married and it was Eleazar who brought Rebekkah to Isaac. On the other hand, we all know what evil befell people who sought wives for themselves. Jacob had to toil 14 years for Rachel and she did not even live until they returned back. Samson loved Delilah and she was a snare to him. So, moral of the lesson - let your parents choose your spouse because that is what the Bible says.

I can give so many examples how the Bible is interpreted 'way too literally'. But hey, who can tell which side is right and which side is wrong? We will only know when we reach the other shore. And then there is no way of coming back and correcting it.


On that note, I have a question. If a woman needs guidance, then it should be accepted that her husband will provide that guidance in loving care, not dominance, correct?

What happens then if it is the man who needs the guidance?

This is NOT a cut on men, but merely an observation. Sure, there are plenty of irresponsible women out there. But is the answer that they should find a husband to lead them? So what happens when the man is the one who needs lessons in growing up? Does it mean he simply shouldn't marry until someone teaches him how to be a man?

I think, if the man needs lessons in growing up, then he is unfit husband material and needs more time to grow up. The same applies with a woman also. Marriage is between two individuals. And by 'individual' I mean a person who has an own identity - personal beliefs, moral values, career, financial independence, dreams/aspirations, likes/dislikes, choices, etc. Whether it is right or wrong, a person has to have his/her own opinion on an issue of interest to him/her. That is what counts as an individual to me. Whether it is a man/woman, a person who does not match this criteria should wait and grow up.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#19
Beyond too much or too little parenting, I think there some cultural factors that make living at home for a long period of time very attractive and easy to do. Now I have great parents who did everything they could to prepare me and my 30 year old brother for adulthood. Yet my brother and I still more or less live in my parents' house (yes I'm overseas right now, but most of my stuff is at my parents' house and I plan to move back in (at least for starters) on my return to the US).

The first reason is financial. I have and grew up with a much higher standard of living in my parents' house than I can afford on my own. Why establish my own household and pay a separate bill for household things like cable TV and high speed internet when they are included at no extra cost at home? To move out on my own, I would have to lower my standard of living and make sacrifices. Living at home is also a much lower stress prospect since if I have money troubles (and yes my parents do charge us rent but much less than I would pay to actually rent a place), I know I will still be able to eat and have a roof over my head because let's face it, Mom is too soft hearted to kick me out. There is also the added advantage of having some family life at home, which takes some of the loneliness and sting out of singleness.

Beyond that I think we are seeing what has been called an extended adolescence. Basically adolescence is the time in life when we are allowed to have many of the freedoms of being an adult, but without a lot of the responsibilities. So why then would anyone with that deal want to add in more responsibilities without adding many freedoms? Success has also been redefined as being able to do what you want. So now I can be successful apart from a career. I can pursue all kinds of great experiences to make me more happy and comfortable, and not worry too much about the future because when I get done with my experience I can always crash at Mom and Dad's until the next thing comes along (or the government or some charity will take care of me when the hard times come).

What this really means is that we're able to hold out for our dreams instead of settling for survival. For example: I am capable of doing factory work. But I don't want to do factory work and living at home I can keep my expenses down so that I don't need that steady income. So I won't do factory work, I'll just hold out for my dream of being a film maker and keep doing video stuff and independent films for very little money because it's what I want to do even if I can't support myself independently at it.

Not trying to justify any of these attitudes (and also starting to think more about how I may need to finish growing up and actually become fully independent and move out in the not too distant future), but I think that this is a lot of the reason for the failure to launch epidemic we're seeing in the West. Becoming a responsible adult just doesn't have a high enough payoff anymore, especially if your parents or the government will bail you out when you hit rock bottom.
 
C

Charcoal

Guest
#20
On that note, I have a question. If a woman needs guidance, then it should be accepted that her husband will provide that guidance in loving care, not dominance, correct?

What happens then if it is the man who needs the guidance?
...
This is one reason why it should be understood..
That a husbands role actually entails more than that of a father, teaching guiding and yes correcting when necessary for the remaining years of her life and should not be resented for their efforts.
Especially if the parents leaned more toward spoiling a child rather than parenting.
This is sometimes VERY true. other times, there is little to no truth in it. When I see singles (of either gender) who are not helpless and who can survive on their own, I feel it is cause to rejoice. Too easily our world is succumbing to the so called failure to launch... but it is often Ground Control who is at fault.

Seoul does cut to the heat of the matter, though. Now I'm not one of those "oppress the fairer sex" so-called Chrsitians. There is nothing Christian about holding someone back. I do, however, believe that Men should be able to rise up and lead their family. It is a Biblical duty that we, as men, are to be responsible for AND TO our households.

How does one become ready for such a duty? Some stumble into preparedness, some possess God given abilities, some were carefully groomed for the role, though.

As a father of a son, I see it my duty to prepare him to lead, not relying on chance or luck for him to have those skills, but rather taking the wonderful raw materials that God has provided, and through refining, honing, polishing...through shaping, sculpting, and providing himself opportunities to test his own metal and grow from it. Iron sharpens Iron. But it is my hope that I will through God's aid, not raise up an Iron son, but make him Steel - a special servant of God, strong of character, and compassionate of heart.

I personally feel that most people should wait until they are able to live independently, rather than relying on someone else (man or woman) to be their surrogate Continuing Ed parent.
Well said, sister! The "resume for spouse" should show a successful track record of living independently. Similarly, one should not take on such a spouse if not yourself ready. To prematurely tie your unfinished self to one of these leader spouses is unfair to the leader spouse. If nothing else, being fully capable of leading yourself prepares you for knowing both how to lead AND how to follow, as well as who to follow or not follow.