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Sep 13, 2018
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#21
I'll tell you what. A genuine Christian has a peculiar albeit tragic talent. They can determine when someone is NOT saved. Very very easily.
Do you know anyone like that personally?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#22
Do you know anyone like that personally?
Myself for one. Almost certainly all Christians. All of my colleagues at the office are not saved. Not a one. I have been to bogus Laodicean "churches" (the ones that think Bono is saved commonly) where I honestly concluded there might not be a single saved person in the place. Impossible? Not at this point in history. We are nearing the great falling away stage prophesied of the Church IMO.
 
Sep 13, 2018
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#23
Do you know anyone like that personally?
I believe we , as Christians, Have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior. And only our Father can determine what relationship we have with him. Don't you think???
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#24
I believe we , as Christians, Have a personal relationship with our Lord and Savior. And only our Father can determine what relationship we have with him. Don't you think???
Thats not the point I am making. The point is whether a believer can make a valid determination (valid....not conclusive) about whether a person is saved. Some cases are blatantly obvious.....others more subtle. But most cases become apparent eventually.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#25
Another of Diogenes' disciples...

If you look for a flaw long enough and hard enough you will find one.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#26
Another of Diogenes' disciples...

If you look for a flaw long enough and hard enough you will find one.
Flaw? People trying to destroy you for your love of Jesus and witnessing to His Name is hardly a flaw. Its a damnable sin if not repented of. And this has been my personal experience many many times over.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#27
Flaw? People trying to destroy you for your love of Jesus and witnessing to His Name is hardly a flaw. Its a damnable sin if not repented of. And this has been my personal experience many many times over.
Always worth asking yourself (and maybe your critics) if that's because of a perceived love of Jesus or a perceived lack of love for people.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#28
Always worth asking yourself (and maybe your critics) if that's because of a perceived love of Jesus or a perceived lack of love for people.
Tell that to Paul. Or Stephen. No, hatred for Jesus and denying His Lordship is overt, contempuous and dangerous. Oh....and if you did not know this, the sower is NEVER to be blamed. The criticism lies with the soils. BTW Paul suffered endless criticism even from within his own founded Churches. Was he supposed to cowtow and bow to everyone who resisted him? Hardly.
 

VincentG

Prodigal son
Aug 25, 2018
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#30
what people do for a lie...that Christians won't do for the truth.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#31
Tell that to Paul. Or Stephen. No, hatred for Jesus and denying His Lordship is overt, contempuous and dangerous. Oh....and if you did not know this, the sower is NEVER to be blamed. The criticism lies with the soils. BTW Paul suffered endless criticism even from within his own founded Churches. Was he supposed to cowtow and bow to everyone who resisted him? Hardly.
I'm thinking about all those traveling preachers that Paul referred to as false apostles. Actually I'm more thinking of the many harsh Christians I've encountered online (and occasionally in real life) who have this persecution complex and think everyone is against them because they're so holy when it's pretty obvious to any bystander that people oppose them and criticize them because they're complete jerks. Yes persecution is real, but we need to be honest enough with ourselves to examine ourselves when criticized and make sure that we are reflecting the true heart of our Lord. Plenty of examples of religious "holy" people using the name of God as a means to power and controlling others so we can't think we're immune to that. There are also plenty of examples of people who as an act of faith gave up their own advantages to be a blessing and benefit to others. The point was not that there is no opposition to Christ, but that it is a fallacy to assume that all opposition is an unjustified attack on our Christian faith. Most of us are not above reproach or beyond the need for improvement and growth in holiness.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,359
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#32
I'm thinking about all those traveling preachers that Paul referred to as false apostles. Actually I'm more thinking of the many harsh Christians I've encountered online (and occasionally in real life) who have this persecution complex and think everyone is against them because they're so holy when it's pretty obvious to any bystander that people oppose them and criticize them because they're complete jerks. Yes persecution is real, but we need to be honest enough with ourselves to examine ourselves when criticized and make sure that we are reflecting the true heart of our Lord. Plenty of examples of religious "holy" people using the name of God as a means to power and controlling others so we can't think we're immune to that. There are also plenty of examples of people who as an act of faith gave up their own advantages to be a blessing and benefit to others. The point was not that there is no opposition to Christ, but that it is a fallacy to assume that all opposition is an unjustified attack on our Christian faith. Most of us are not above reproach or beyond the need for improvement and growth in holiness.
Honestly, I never worry about "delivery" techniques or anything of the like. I really don't worry about much of anything other than presenting an accuracy MESSAGE.
Sow the seed and let God worry about the soils. Preaching runs the gamut from fire and brimstone to hearts and flowers, it matters little, persecution comes as the result of hatred for the One who has sent the ambassadors. But most importantly, warnings of persecution are scriptural. All genuine sons of light sons of God will be persecuted it is inevitable.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
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#33
Very interesting discussion here. In my humble opinion, I think the delivery matters in the receiving of the content. Ultimately we are told to...

Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.
Colossians 4:6 NASB

Love and mercy should contain truth, and truth contain mercy and love. After all He is Love and He is Truth. He gives us a spirit of Love and a sound mind, telling us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. I think we should always be ambassadors for Christ, spreading His good news, knowing Christ's appeal is Gods'. With that said, when sharing the truth, its delivery is better received when wrapped in love. Otherwise the content is skewed because it lacks wisdom and heart, right? Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we flatter or sugar down the truth. Not at all, quite the opposite: but ultimately our end goal is to point them to Christ, right? When seeking to be fishermen of people, truth, love and mercy should always be our go to bait.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#34
Honestly, I never worry about "delivery" techniques or anything of the like. I really don't worry about much of anything other than presenting an accuracy MESSAGE.
Sow the seed and let God worry about the soils. Preaching runs the gamut from fire and brimstone to hearts and flowers, it matters little, persecution comes as the result of hatred for the One who has sent the ambassadors. But most importantly, warnings of persecution are scriptural. All genuine sons of light sons of God will be persecuted it is inevitable.
You really do need to worry about delivery techniques. Even on good ground a farmer won't get much of a crop if he doesn't plant the seeds the right way.

That parable about the sower has been misused so many times. It's a really popular one with contentious christians. Usually it is phrased as "Well if you don't like the message take it up with God. I'm just the messenger."

(Obligatory xkcd comic)
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#36
You really do need to worry about delivery techniques. Even on good ground a farmer won't get much of a crop if he doesn't plant the seeds the right way.

That parable about the sower has been misused so many times. It's a really popular one with contentious christians. Usually it is phrased as "Well if you don't like the message take it up with God. I'm just the messenger."

(Obligatory xkcd comic)
Preaching may include a form of siege conflict in order to breach the prison walls and gates so that the prisoners can be emancipated. This is Spiritual Warfare after all. IMO the human factors matter little. The true MESSAGE will always be effective. Always has.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#37
Preaching may include a form of siege conflict in order to breach the prison walls and gates so that the prisoners can be emancipated. This is Spiritual Warfare after all. IMO the human factors matter little. The true MESSAGE will always be effective. Always has.
Siege conflict? Uh... you do know humans are not the enemy here, right? People you witness to must really enjoy that a lot.

"Oh shoot here he comes! Man, what a day to forget my flak jacket..."
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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#38
Siege conflict? Uh... you do know humans are not the enemy here, right? People you witness to must really enjoy that a lot.

"Oh shoot here he comes! Man, what a day to forget my flak jacket..."
Did we forget about the Spirit filled (from birth) foreordained proclaimer of Jesus Christ Himself John the Baptist? Was he a smooth operator? A silver tongued orator? A well dressed polite politically correct yes man? Not so much. What was his message and what was his method? To the leadership? To Herod? How did the people view him and his ministry? How did Jesus Himself view his ministry?

Answer those questions and the matter will be settled.

The Joel Osteens of the world aren't saving anybody.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#39
Yeah but the people who think they are the second coming of John the Baptist sure are driving a lot of people away.

John didn't practice siege warfare anyway. He just told people Jesus was coming. The only people John ever even insulted were the Pharisees, and that was because the Pharisees were only interested in disproving the things they thought would upset their little power structure.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
9,359
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#40
Yeah but the people who think they are the second coming of John the Baptist sure are driving a lot of people away.

John didn't practice siege warfare anyway. He just told people Jesus was coming. The only people John ever even insulted were the Pharisees, and that was because the Pharisees were only interested in disproving the things they thought would upset their little power structure.
"Yeah but the people who think they are the second coming of John the Baptist sure are driving a lot of people away. "

Not so in John's day. His lifestyle and preaching DREW all Israel TO him. And all Israel considered John to be a true prophet.

As for Spiritual warfare, nobody can deny that fact. Nobody.