Sexism and Double Standards

[Shouryu]

So, Arwen made mention in the Streams thread the concern about wanting to dress comfortably during the summer, but points out the issues that women have to face when it comes to wearing summer wear.

To be honest, I sweat a bit and my heart races if I am wearing a skirt/dress without other girls/or a guy with me (even in daylight). Like somehow I am on display, ready to be ridiculed. And the skirts and dresses that I've owned aren't short, but it always seems like the safest way is to wear jeans. I guess I am super self-conscious. I cannot control what others think of me... but I can to some degree- every reaction has an action.

When I'm picking out what to wear out of my summer waredrobe, I hear three voices in my head:

1) Other women calling me a s*** under their breath, giving dirty looks
2) Comments & whistling from guys that I had in the past
3) The voice in my head that says 'it's your own fault if you get comments or whistles because you CHOSE to dress that way- stick to wearing jeans'

Men: Do you see what women can go through with a simple decision of picking out clothes to wear?

Not wishing to break protocol in the Streams thread (no public responses), I PM'd her my thoughts on the matter. Here's a snippet. (I may post the rest later if the thread blossoms.)

I'm PM'ing you as not to break protocol in your thread.

I don't think ANY guy can really understand what you describe. Although you can tell us, we will never REALLY know.

A man CAN be objectified like a woman; he can also be harassed, sometimes more aggressively because most men welcome that behavior.* But men rarely look at other men and 'slut-shame' them because of how they dress. That's partially because in general, it's not considered fashionable for men to reveal skin, but mainly because men don't assess their competition the same way women do.

Men CAN and DO slut-shame each other, but it rarely has to do with the way we look. It actually only happens when another man is actually bedding lots of women. While there are plenty of guys who will congratulate and encourage a man-slut, there are actually a surprising number of men, Christian and non-Christian, who are pretty judgy with man-sluts.

I don't think we can understand, though, what it's like to just dress comfortably, and immediately be judged by our own gender. Sorry you have to put up with that.

{snip personal story about being objectified}

She suggested I start a thread, because 1) Arwen and because 2) it's likely to foster some conversation and because 3) Arwen.

I posit that while men can and do slut-shame other men, it's nowhere near as frequent, and usually not over the way we dress. Because of said postulation, I posit that most men probably can't truly understand what it's like to instantly be branded a slut just because of how we dress. I could be wrong. Discuss.

I guess we haven't gotten to the double standards yet, but I have a feeling we will. Ready, go! *fires starter pistol*

 

[iTOREtheSKY]

I've never judged a man by how he dresses,but I do call men whores & sluts and many of my women friends find that hilarious & refreshing. Because that word is used for women so much because of the way they dress or if they have slept with some men. Shouldn't it apply to men as well? I would imagine most men will never know the awkwardness or the worry that a woman must feel on any given day when picking out an outfit. Is it too see thru,is it too tight..too low cut..too short,etc... I highly doubt most men when putting on a pair of jeans look in the mirror & go..hmmm these flatter my buns too much,and that group of women at the water cooler might try to flirt with me or grab at me..I'd better change into my loose fitting cargo pants!

 

[BarlyGurl]

I just want to pipe in that I don't follow "streams", but that I want for Arwen or any other young woman who suffers from these body/wardrobe/others issues to be encouraged. You are the daughter of THE KING, the most high God and if you are dressing in a modest weather and event appropriate clothing you are absolutely NOT responsible for ANY negative responses by either men nor women. Be strong in the Lord and know that God knows your heart... it is not his desire for you to lock up your femininity, uniqueness, or basic comfort for fear of what others may say to or about you. Wear your dresses, frilly things, heels or whatever with confidence... you are pleasing to HIM.

 

[MidniteWelder]

I highly doubt most men when putting on a pair of jeans look in the mirror & go..hmmm these flatter my buns too much,and that group of women at the water cooler might try to flirt with me or grab at me..I'd better change into my loose fitting cargo pants!

Hey, we gotta help keep our sisters from impure thoughts too bro,
lest we get blamed for that too
just sayin

 

[kayem77]

When I'm picking out what to wear out of my summer waredrobe, I hear three voices in my head:

1) Other women calling me a s*** under their breath, giving dirty looks
2) Comments & whistling from guys that I had in the past
3) The voice in my head that says 'it's your own fault if you get comments or whistles because you CHOSE to dress that way- stick to wearing jeans'

Wow this is what goes through my mind when picking an outfit too. I'm not so self-concious that I avoid all dresses or skirts, but I do think twice before wearing them, especially if I'm going out all by myself, mostly because of reasons #2 and #3 , because honestly, the only women who would judge me for what I wear would be ultra-conservative women.

I think this is where the conflict of ''what's modesty?'' begins. I've had disrespectful comments and whistling from guys even if I'm wearing a sweatshirt and jeans, so I've realized that the outfit is not really the issue, it's their hearts. Even then though, I still have to face the reality that those kind of guys are out there, so when I get those comments or whistling I'm left wondering if it's my fault or if they are just too gross to behave like grown-ups.

Men..........please NEVER whistle to a woman, and teach your sons not to do it. You don't know how frustrating and unconciously traumatizing that can be.

 

[DuchessAimee]

I've retyped my opening for this post 5 times now. I'm debating as to how much I want to share, and how much I want to get involved. But y'all know it's rare I stay out of something like this.


Arwen, I do not doubt that you are a modest woman. No doubt in my mind.


I'm a modest woman. I wasn't always, but after I became a Christian in 2001, things changed. I used to teach a women's bible class, and the topic of women's modesty came up. It was requested that we do a bible study, so I designed one. I also had the girls go through magazines and rip out things they thought were modest and what they thought weren't. It was a pretty successful series. And much like what Barley said a couple of posts up, I told them if they were dressed modestly, and someone decided to mock or transgress against them anyway, it wasn't their fault. We can't control someone else or someone else's mind.


Now, with that being said, women know how they dress. We know it affects other people. If a female ever says to you "Oh, I just don't see how my outfit affects ________" That's a lie. Or she's in EXTREME denial. Women dress for other women and men are secondary. And because of this, we KNOW when we're dressing for men. We do it intentionally. We dress to be attractive or unattractive. We're trained to dress one way or the other. Women's Lib really messed things up. Quite badly, actually.

 

[arwen83]

In terms of the 3rd voice- that originated from hearing stories of rape trials where the girls are scrutinized and questioned what they were wearing- as if to imply that how a woman dresses just asks for a man to rape her. These girls are treated as temptresses. That he couldn't help himself. And it's puts the blame on the victim.

 

[DuchessAimee]

In terms of the 3rd voice- that originated from hearing stories of rape trials where the girls are scrutinized and questioned what they were wearing- as if to imply that how a woman dresses just asks for a man to rape her. These girls are treated as temptresses. That he couldn't help himself. And it's puts the blame on the victim.

Yeah, that's classic. One of the things I hate about people is the need to blame others for their actions. I just robbed a bank because Chase Visa is making me pay my bill. Or I had to run over my ex husband because he made me mad. Or yep, I had to rape that girl because her outfit told me to. Personally, I think it's the flesh mixed with demonic inspiration.

 

[error]

2) Comments & whistling from guys that I had in the past.

I just hate whn that happens. Maybe guys think we like it (and maybe some women really likes it)-but I don't want to hear comments about my butt and all that-esp. from a total stranger.

Men..........please NEVER whistle to a woman, and teach your sons not to do it. You don't know how frustrating and unconciously traumatizing that can be. (good advice)

 

[Jullianna]

We ladies should absolutely dress with care and most of us do feel awkward when men express physical attraction in inappropriate ways. However, keeping in mind the title of this thread, we need to be willing to admit that women often respond inappropriately to attractive men as well. Perhaps my profession has put me in places and situations where I have witnessed more of this than most women do, but it happens. I feel embarrassed for women who behave this way. Perhaps men feel embarrassed for their gender when they see women being treated or spoken of inappropriately as well.

 

[Hellooo]

I just want to pipe in that I don't follow "streams", but that I want for Arwen or any other young woman who suffers from these body/wardrobe/others issues to be encouraged. You are the daughter of THE KING, the most high God and if you are dressing in a modest weather and event appropriate clothing you are absolutely NOT responsible for ANY negative responses by either men nor women. Be strong in the Lord and know that God knows your heart... it is not his desire for you to lock up your femininity, uniqueness, or basic comfort for fear of what others may say to or about you. Wear your dresses, frilly things, heels or whatever with confidence... you are pleasing to HIM.

Spot on, BarlyGurl. x1000000000000000

 

[Donkeyfish07]

I don't really think there's a double standard going on there at all, even though you always hear that old saying "Why is it that when a guy sleeps with a lot of women, he's a stud.....but when a woman does it, she's a slut?). I even seen a study on that one time........bunch of random guys shown a picture of a girl and rated her attractiveness by herself........then they shown another group a picture of the same girl but in a group of guys (In a non provocative setting, just hanging around a bunch of guys).......the group that seen those pictures rated her way lower than the other group.

Reverse was done, bunch of girls shown a picture of a guy by himself.....rated attractiveness....then another group shown the same guy but surrounded by a group of attractive women.........the group that viewed the set of him surrounded by women rated him way way higher.

I've noticed that a lot in my life as well, observing other people and personal experiences. I've lived in different states and been parts of completely different groups. Anytime I've dated an attractive girl in a particular group.....all the other girls in that group will suddenly start showing more interest in me than normal, slipping me numbers, offering to buy me lunch randomly.....I've also noticed that if I like a girl and find out she has a lot of guy friends she hangs out with, my interest level noticeably drops quite a bit. Even if I know she's not slutty or sleeping with them, the interest level drops too low for me to be interested in pursuing. I think our flesh is hardwired to respond in those ways.

As far as slut shaming goes, I've never called a woman a slut or a whore in my life, even if they do sleep around (Biblical or not, I don't take it upon myself to judge people for their behaviors.....not my job).....one thing I have noticed though is the biggest source of slut shame comes from women slut shaming other women, so slut shame is less of a sexist behavior in the sense of gender vs. gender in my opinion. I've hardly ever seen a man slut shame a woman.......What about you guys?

 

[iTOREtheSKY]

Hey, we gotta help keep our sisters from impure thoughts too bro,
lest we get blamed for that too
just sayin

LOL...indeed. I'm not saying a man's dress or the way he looks never causes women to stumble (George Clooney/Brad Pitt)...it's just more uncommon. (personally I am always having to tell the women.."Stop...I'm not a piece of meat,keep cool mahhh babies!"...sigh,it never seems to work. Must be my smile & 4 white chest hairs that does 'em in every time. Maybe I should start buttoning up my shirts to just above the navel.

 

[iTOREtheSKY]

as for what Donkey mentioned...
"As far as slut shaming goes, I've never called a woman a slut or a whore in my life, even if they do sleep around (Biblical or not, I don't take it upon myself to judge people for their behaviors.....not my job).....one thing I have noticed though is the biggest source of slut shame comes from women slut shaming other women, so slut shame is less of a sexist behavior in the sense of gender vs. gender in my opinion. I've hardly ever seen a man slut shame a woman.......What about you guys?"
That's true...I've seen & heard women call other women names that were jaw dropping just because of how another woman was dressed or because of how many men they might or might not have slept with...what's even sicker,is I've heard some of these types of comments among supposed sister's in Christ! I do think women should dress in what they feel is comfortable. Do I think that if she's wearing something low cut or slightly eye catching (and ladies ..you know what I mean) that she should be oggled or whistled at or made to feel uncomfortable? No.Absolutely not! But, it seems the way society is you have to expect it & try not to take it too personal. Like BarlyGurl said "You are the daughter of THE KING, the most high God and if you are dressing in a modest weather and event appropriate clothing you are absolutely NOT responsible for ANY negative responses by either men nor women. Be strong in the Lord and know that God knows your heart... it is not his desire for you to lock up your femininity, uniqueness, or basic comfort for fear of what others may say to or about you. Wear your dresses, frilly things, heels or whatever with confidence... you are pleasing to HIM." ​

 

[Ugly]

In terms of the 3rd voice- that originated from hearing stories of rape trials where the girls are scrutinized and questioned what they were wearing- as if to imply that how a woman dresses just asks for a man to rape her. These girls are treated as temptresses. That he couldn't help himself. And it's puts the blame on the victim.

I've heard of this as well. But lets face it, the only people that think that way, for the most part, are going to be lawyers just trying to win a case, or players who don't really see women as human to begin with. Just as sexual conquests. Those two categories make up the majority of that mentality. So likely, less people are thinking that than you seem to believe.

 

[Ariel82]

???? i thought women were supposed to wear dresses and skirts???

You should rebuke these voices

1) Other women calling me a s*** under their breath, giving dirty looks
2) Comments & whistling from guys that I had in the past
3) The voice in my head that says 'it's your own fault if you get comments or whistles because you CHOSE to dress that way- stick to wearing jeans'

because they are lies. 1. most women will probably look at you and think, "wow she is a beautiful sister in Christ" at least those are the ones I surround myself with. I love my girl friends they are great! You say your skirts are not short so I doubt you would qualify as a s**t. Plus its more behavior then clothes, which i don't see you going around sleeping with a bunch of nameless men either so I doubt anyone can call you one without being a liar. then they have issues and you should pray for them instead of listen to their lies, because GOD knows you are NOT one.

2. some men are pigs (sorry for the guys who are not) others think whistling is a compliment and don't realize it makes women uncomfortable. Just ignore them and keep walking. the gentlemen will figure out better ways to approach a woman with respect.

3. its not YOUR fault some men are jerks, its THEIRS. Its like saying its the fault of the rape victim for being raped because of them being there, dressed a certain way, etc. NO its the fault of the MAN who did it not the victim. Its just a demonic excuse to allow sinners not to take responsibility to control their thoughts and actions.

I was always taught women should wear dresses and skirts and was discouraged from wearing jeans at all because it showed more of the butt and legs, which gave men the wrong idea. who knows. i haven't a clue.

don't allow voices to steal away your peace, joy and happiness.

 

[MissCris]

1. I know a woman who was raped, and she herself says it was her own fault for how she was dressing/behaving. I don't know if it's rare for a woman to blame herself in a situation like that or not. I just know she does.

2. Summer time. Women wear shorts and tank tops, men (some) take their shirts off. But it's usually the women, who are at least wearing a shirt, who get called names for how they're dressed, even though the man standing 10 feet away is half naked....what the heck?

3. I rolled out of bed, nabbed a cup of coffee and forgot I put sugar in it so added some more and almost keeled over from the sweetness, and sat down here and tried to focus on the topic...um...apologies, if I make no sense, my eyes aren't even open...

 

[maxwel]

As far as any double standard,
guys certainly can be sexually harassed by women.
It does happen.
Girls sometimes get away with things that would get a man arrested.

However, this has NOTHING to do with the issue of how women should be treated.
They are two completely different issues.
And of course, women should always be treated with respect.

 

[Ugly]

It's not even always sexual harassment. Guys, ever try walking into a busy public womens room? You'd either get a group beating, or arrested. But what happens when a woman walks into a mens restroom? Men look over, and continue their business as if it were a normal thing. I've known women that have done this, and men treated it like it was normal. (and, no, the women weren't being funny or pervy, they just got tired of the mile long line for the womens restroom.)

 

[Ugly]

MisCriss .. i've heard of this. Most often the women that think that way, whether themselves, or even about other women, typically come from a background of sexual abuse as a child. That's where they form this thinking to begin with.