Votes for dead people

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cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#1
So I had this thought, it seemed too complicated, then I got reminded by a fellow forum member that I said I had a thread idea so:

Often in discussions (especially about how to conduct our romantic relationships) ideas or standards are suggested and someone else comes along and dismisses what was said by saying that is a cultural value not a binding absolute. I feel like I see (and have at times been a part of) people dismissing tradition and previous culture values as an irrelevant and outdated collection of ideas. And while I will never be one for being a slave to tradition; I also can't help but think of the following quote by GK Chesteron (aka the apostle of common sense):

“Tradition means giving a vote to most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about. All democrats object to men being disqualified by the accident of birth; tradition objects to their being disqualified by the accident of death."

So, how do you view tradition and the values you've inherited from your culture? How do you choose what to adopt and what to throw out as you set up your own personal value system? How do you think tradition and culture affect the way we interpret what is "Biblical"? And any other relevant thoughts on why we should or shouldn't follow cultural tradition in our lives.
 

kinda

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2013
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#3
I think honoring your ancestors by keeping their traditions is fine, as long as it doesn't go against your beliefs or the Bible. For instance, I don't celebrate X-mas or December 25th, much of my family celebrates, but I don't. It brings tension during the season, but my family has learned to accept me and my rebellious ways.

Personally, I think family tradition is built into our DNA, among other things. We can't really run from our past, but Christ can forgive and make us new. Ask your mom or dad who you take after in the family and there may be some parallels. Much of who we are and how we act is from our culture and ancestors. Your ancestors survived many trials and those survival skills are in you.
 
Aug 2, 2009
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#4
I think a lot of traditions are done in remembrance of something, like Christmas is in remembrance of Jesus's birth. Thanksgiving is in remembrance of the peace and friendship between the pilgrims and the native american indians. Hannukah is in remembrance of the passover.
 

17Bees

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2016
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#5
It is a complicated question, Cultures are variable and as the world's technology improves communication and transportation, so goes the variability of traditions. We've seen some radical changes in communication just in our life times and I'm confident we'll see rival changes in transportation in years to come. The results are that these technologies are way out pacing cultural acceptance of one another. We are virtually thrown into a tower of Babel. We're consumed with fear of one another; afraid one culture is taking advantage of another culture and we have leaders taking advantage of the fear itself for their own profit.

So what is tradition? The person above me doesn't celebrate Christmas in a traditional way, but why is it a tradition? We're basically leaving gifts at the feet of trees. We're worshiping the evergreen tree - the tree unaffected by the winterkill. We've turned it into Christ's birthday but think! When were the wise men watching their flocks by night?

We, the worshipers of the God Who was and is and will be forever are from the Hebrew tree we are grafted from. Do you know what a grafted tree does? It turns a tall tree into a dwarf. It turns a dwarf into heaven bound timber. It can turn an apple to a cherry but it sticks to its genus. Apples and pears are not of the same genus and cannot be grafted. So, what does this say of the God Who speaks to us in agricultural ways?

I personally believe that this means ALL will not be a part of the family of God. Some cannot be grafted. Others who can will not produce fruit and will be cut down and cast away. So, yes - it's a complicated question.
 

Oncefallen

Idiot in Chief
Staff member
Jan 15, 2011
5,471
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#6
Hanukkah is in remembrance of the passover.
Sorry to correct you, Passover is Passover (think Easter time).

Hanukkah is celebrated right around Christmas time and is the Jewish holiday celebrating the re-consecration of the Temple (it had been desecrated under Greek control) after the Maccabean revolt restored control of Jerusalem (and the Temple) to Jewish control (roughly 165 BC).
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
694
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#7
I personally believe that this means ALL will not be a part of the family of God. Some cannot be grafted. Others who can will not produce fruit and will be cut down and cast away. So, yes - it's a complicated question.
This is a very curious statement...care to elaborate? Not attempting to thread hijack or anything so if you'd like you can post on my profile.


In regards to traditions though, I treat EVERY tradition with suspicion. Much like ritual, if it gets to a point where it no longer points to something outside itself it is of no value and is vain. I'm not a fan of wasted energy, I just feel convicted/guilty.

I ask the question. Why are "we" doing this? Why am "I" doing this? Where is the Lord in this?

If it lines up it lines up.


Things like Xmas should obviously be met with serious scrutiny.

Jewish holidays seem "kosher" to me. Not to make a joke, although the connection did make me giggle. I really enjoyed sharing a passover meal with other believers, with all the traditions :)

Although the thing about opening the door for Elijah brought up some questions
 

Lynx

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2014
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#8
"Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up."

Conditions change and traditions need to regularly be evaluated and modified or removed. But before any tradition is disregarded, we should know why it was instated in the first place. The reason for it might still exist, and ignoring it might be to our detriment.

Or continuing to follow it could be stifling us. It depends on the tradition and whether the reason for it has passed.

Case in point: Facial hair and the standard churches used to have against it. Back in the day the standard had a very good reason. These days, in most areas... not so much.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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#9
Although the thing about opening the door for Elijah brought up some questions
Well Mii, I was intrigued by this sentence. So, I went back looking for the "thing" and couldn't find it.

Addressing the OP. Since I have matured in Christ, I do not keep the traditional holidays that have religious overtones. They are all false and based in Paganism. I started keeping God's feasts with my fellow Sabbatarians. It has opened my eyes quite a bit. The Passover foot-washing is a real humble and sacred event. Holidays like Thanksgiving and Washington's birthday are okay with no religious history. :cool:
 

17Bees

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2016
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#10
This is a very curious statement...care to elaborate? Not attempting to thread hijack or anything so if you'd like you can post on my profile
I said "...I personally believe that this means ALL will not be a part of the family of God. Some cannot be grafted. Others who can will not produce fruit and will be cut down and cast away." The first part said "all will not be a part of the family of God" - and I don't think that's debatable. We know this. Second part says "some cannot be grafted in" - what I mean by that is that a pear can be grafted into an apple tree. But - it won't do any good. It will not produce fruit. And I personally believe there are people who will never accept Grace through Christ and the God of Israel. So you could try to graft them into the Hebrew root, but it will do no good. One could say that it's a matter of free choice, but again - what's the difference between can't and won't? One implies free choice, but the results of both are the same. Now, here's where it's difficult. I believe there's a second part to this. I think this goes deeper than free choice for some. I think this has something to do with a spiritual gene or even something about the body and spirit genus and I further think it goes back to the sons of Abram - Ishmael and Isaac. Ishmael was born of the slave Hagar and represents bondage while Isaac was born of Sarah the wife and represents freedom. Read Galatians 4:22-31. The grafted fruit that "takes" are from the root of Abram and Sarah. Isaac's son was Jacob who was the grandfather of the eventual 12 tribes of Israel. Ishmael followed different paths of the Mt. Sinai Ishmaelites.

The last part says "others that can will not produce fruit". Read Matthew 7 18-23. Christ is talking about false prophets and people who say they know Him, but Christ does not know them and casts them away.

Hope this helps.
 

Lynx

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2014
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#11
That, if true, would be very sad. Fortunately the Bible says everybody can come to God. It says this multiple times, in many places, in many different ways.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,072
1,084
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#12
Well Mii, I was intrigued by this sentence. So, I went back looking for the "thing" and couldn't find it.

Addressing the OP. Since I have matured in Christ, I do not keep the traditional holidays that have religious overtones. They are all false and based in Paganism. I started keeping God's feasts with my fellow Sabbatarians. It has opened my eyes quite a bit. The Passover foot-washing is a real humble and sacred event. Holidays like Thanksgiving and Washington's birthday are okay with no religious history. :cool:
I think the practice of leaving a chair for Elijah and checking for him at the door was started later (not sure when but if I had to guess I'd guess the intertestament period) based on the end of Malachi 4:5 where God promises to send Elijah. ( And according to this Rabbi at least, well I guess either I'm wrong or he considers it unimportant to know how the tradition started https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...s-Elijah-the-Prophet-Invited-to-the-Seder.htm )

I find it an interesting (and also interesting that it's so common) position that you won't celebrate the traditionally religious holidays because they retain some symbolism derrived from paganism. Can Christ not fill what was once pagan with new meaning found in himself? Can what was once used in ignorance not be used in service of God? Can God redeem us individually but not our culture where we come together corporately to define our identity and purpose? He did that for the Jewish people in an amazing way and then rather convincingly showed the early church that becoming Jewish wasn't a requirement for becoming a Christian. There's some amazing symbolism that's spelled out in the Jewish feasts, but I don't think that's the only cultural tradition that has bits that point to God.
 

17Bees

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2016
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#13
That, if true, would be very sad. Fortunately the Bible says everybody can come to God. It says this multiple times, in many places, in many different ways.
Yes it is sad. And what you say is true - but with caveats. It's "anyone who is joined" and "whosoever shall believe" and "through faith you are saved" but not anyone as if it's everyone. Look at Roman's 9: 6-13. God chooses who He chooses. It is God's sovereign choice.
 

Lynx

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2014
14,834
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#14
Well you know which ones God wants. God is not willing that any should perish...
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
2,358
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#15
I think the practice of leaving a chair for Elijah and checking for him at the door was started later (not sure when but if I had to guess I'd guess the intertestament period) based on the end of Malachi 4:5 where God promises to send Elijah. ( And according to this Rabbi at least, well I guess either I'm wrong or he considers it unimportant to know how the tradition started https://www.chabad.org/holidays/pas...s-Elijah-the-Prophet-Invited-to-the-Seder.htm )

I find it an interesting (and also interesting that it's so common) position that you won't celebrate the traditionally religious holidays because they retain some symbolism derrived from paganism. Can Christ not fill what was once pagan with new meaning found in himself? Can what was once used in ignorance not be used in service of God? Can God redeem us individually but not our culture where we come together corporately to define our identity and purpose? He did that for the Jewish people in an amazing way and then rather convincingly showed the early church that becoming Jewish wasn't a requirement for becoming a Christian. There's some amazing symbolism that's spelled out in the Jewish feasts, but I don't think that's the only cultural tradition that has bits that point to God.
we would have to remove our entire week day as all are named after pagan gods or goddess. Months as well and planets if you look back soo many things are rooted in paganism.
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
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#16
Well this derailed really quickly 🙄
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
2,358
1,483
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#18
Lol no its not my thread dont apologize to me. But it turned from which traditions are ones we should keep to "Your not of God if you celebrate this" kind of thread
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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#19
Well Mii, I was intrigued by this sentence. So, I went back looking for the "thing" and couldn't find it.

Addressing the OP. Since I have matured in Christ, I do not keep the traditional holidays that have religious overtones. They are all false and based in Paganism. I started keeping God's feasts with my fellow Sabbatarians. It has opened my eyes quite a bit. The Passover foot-washing is a real humble and sacred event. Holidays like Thanksgiving and Washington's birthday are okay with no religious history. :cool:
Apparently it was brought in much later you can look up "opening the door for elijah" and it should bring up something.

It's kind of a serious topic and it brought up some rather sad/heartbreaking feelings for me.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
694
444
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#20
Lol no its not my thread dont apologize to me. But it turned from which traditions are ones we should keep to "Your not of God if you celebrate this" kind of thread
Yeah like I said, I'm kind of on the fence about it. It's something that keeps popping up in different ways. If someone is singing a song that clearly glorifies evil but isn't aware of it...what does that mean?

I'm not sure at present. I feel like I'm supposed to denounce such behavior but not in a judgmental kind of way. Just, "hey why don't we listen to something else? or change things up a bit mebbe?" A gentle leading so to speak.

Anyway, my personal view at present is if it is about fellowship and there are opportunities to share the gospel or talk about the word and to sharpen other believers with encouragement and edification then it doesn't really matter the venue. The Lord is soveriegn and can work anywhere he chooses to. Even some of the foulest pits of sin have some of the most beautiful stories of deliverance and freedom.

It's different for people that have had their eyes opened to something and willfully participate. Entirely different. But if not? May his spirit lead the way...the Lord works in many ways :)