Psychics, magicians, fortune tellers, astrologers and faith healers

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JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
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#21
Actually, astronomers are people who study the stars. Astrologers are people who believe that the stars dictate the fate of humans. There's a big difference.

That said, there was a lot of conflation of the two prior to the invention of the telescope.
Ahh I see like horoscopes and the like, though I would not know what to call it if someone saw a asteroid heading on a direct path to earth in a telescope, would that be considered astronomical or astrological event kind of seems like both Hahaha
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,996
6,240
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#22
Ahh I see like horoscopes and the like, though I would not know what to call it if someone saw a asteroid heading on a direct path to earth in a telescope, would that be considered astronomical or astrological event kind of seems like both Hahaha
Yes... horoscopes are prepared by astrologers. They are a snare for the undiscerning.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
2,192
854
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#24
Yes... horoscopes are prepared by astrologers. They are a snare for the undiscerning.
yea that is probably true, though if a astronomer sees a asteroid heading to earth and says hey this thing is heading towards earth and will effect many people isn’t that a form of astrology a prediction
 

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Oct 29, 2019
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#25
In the Bible, demons, evil spirits, and fallen angels are spiritual beings, not material beings. You cannot capture the Holy Spirit on camera either, but that fact doesn't diminish His reality.

Your closing sentence is based on a false interpretation of the word, "real". What can be caught on camera does not define the term. If you don't believe me, then go and take a picture of the love your mother has for you. :)
Things don't have to be materiel to be observed, because we can see the effect that would have no other explanation, but that very thing. Like energy we can't see it, but we can see it's effects, like Air we can't see but we can see its effects. Emotions are also something that can be observed and all of them can be seen effecting different parts of the brain. Most of the spiritual experiences have been observed when through various brain scans as seen in this Atlantic article all scientist still call these experiences subjective and nothing seems to be proven concerning the "spiritual realm"
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#26
yea that is probably true, though if a astronomer sees a asteroid heading to earth and says hey this thing is heading towards earth and will effect many people isn’t that a form of astrology a prediction
No, astrology is a pseudoscience that claims to have divine information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the movements and relative positions of celestial objects. Astrology has been dated to at least the 2nd millennium BCE, and has its roots in calendrical systems used to predict seasonal shifts and to interpret celestial cycles as signs of divine communications.Its olso linked to zodiacs and crystal healing in some circumstances.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
2,192
854
113
#27
No, astrology is a pseudoscience that claims to have divine information about human affairs and terrestrial events by studying the movements and relative positions of celestial objects. Astrology has been dated to at least the 2nd millennium BCE, and has its roots in calendrical systems used to predict seasonal shifts and to interpret celestial cycles as signs of divine communications.Its olso linked to zodiacs and crystal healing in some circumstances.
the zodiac stuff is weird, but a terrestrial event like an asteroid hitting earth on such and such date in the future seems like astrology
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,996
6,240
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#28
yea that is probably true, though if a astronomer sees a asteroid heading to earth and says hey this thing is heading towards earth and will effect many people isn’t that a form of astrology a prediction
It's prediction, no different from getting out of the path of an oncoming train, but it's not astrology. Astrology would be seeing the Saturn appear close to the moon and claiming that it will have a particular effect on people.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,996
6,240
113
#29
Things don't have to be materiel to be observed, because we can see the effect that would have no other explanation, but that very thing. Like energy we can't see it, but we can see it's effects, like Air we can't see but we can see its effects. Emotions are also something that can be observed and all of them can be seen effecting different parts of the brain. Most of the spiritual experiences have been observed when through various brain scans as seen in this Atlantic article all scientist still call these experiences subjective and nothing seems to be proven concerning the "spiritual realm"
"Nothing seems to be proven"... using experimental scientific investigation. Some things are not subject to scientific investigate. Science involves that which is observable, testable, repeatable, and falsifiable. If a field of investigation doesn't fall into all those categories, it isn't experimental science.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
2,192
854
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#30
It's prediction, no different from getting out of the path of an oncoming train, but it's not astrology. Astrology would be seeing the Saturn appear close to the moon and claiming that it will have a particular effect on people.
If it did it probably would have an effect on people hehe

the train thing that would be stupidity not to get out of the way of a oncoming train, not much of a prediction there lol
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,996
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#31
the train thing that would be stupidity not to get out of the way of a oncoming train, not much of a prediction there lol
You're missing the point. The prediction is that the train is coming, based on observation and the laws of physics. It's not magic. Astrology claims to make predictions not based on simple observation and the laws of physics.
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
2,192
854
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#32
You're missing the point. The prediction is that the train is coming, based on observation and the laws of physics. It's not magic. Astrology claims to make predictions not based on simple observation and the laws of physics.
I get it, sorry for the jokes
 

JamOn

Well-known member
Jun 10, 2019
2,192
854
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#33
Though real bad magic is no even close to real good spiritual movements, though it is there, the snakes in the Bible proves there is magic not of the good kind though
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,968
3,592
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#35
If demons, evil spirits , fallen angels , ghosts and other unseen forces are real why have we never been able to observe a single instance since the invention of the camera.
There is a very good possibility that spirit beings cannot be captured on film or recorded digitally. Just as no one can see your soul and spirit, yet they are there and do exist.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,624
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#37
WNA,
you are obviously out of 'the loop' at this time of your life,
prayerfully it won't be for to much longer, hang in there...
 
Oct 29, 2019
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#38
I used to be active in the occult. It surely is real. Are u christian?
I just want to bring this back to the subject. Occult is something I've also delved into when I was 17 and everything I saw was based on my mind set at the time, I believed that there was some kind of power to be gained by spells, burning candles and reading "forbidden knowledge books" one I remember that I was fascinated was The Book of the law written by Alester Crowley. I still remember the feeling of reading certain passages about spirituality and forces beyond with ow e and wonder, while being afraid to let anyone else discover the book that I kept under the bed. We don't have to argue about what we experienced, because we both know what those feelings are like, real and as real as the ground that we stand on, yet this is not a good reason to accept it as something that indeed proves the spiritual realm. Because feeling and emotions are just based on the information that we have received up to that point in our lives and our responses are based on subconscious triggers in the brain. Why do some people have Arachnophobia, its not a decision they make its a response that they have when they see a spider based on the way their brain is wired.

My point is experience and our interpretation of something does not make it objective. Just as one can claim to have experienced the spiritual another in the same situation can claim having no experience, which again shows how subjective emotional and spiritual experiences are.

Nothing about the spiritual has been proven:
Psychic fail compilation 1 , Psychic fail compilation 2 , Psychic fail compilation 3
These are some of the examples of where claimed psychic ability wielders fail to objectively demonstrate that the power actually exists.
There are tens of thousands more examples like this both recorded and not recorded, but zero ones that prove the existence of such abilities.

Asking if I'm a christian is Irrelevant to the topic since we are trying to asses the evidence for or against the supernatural, we can believe it, but it won't make it true and Truth is what I am after here.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,558
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#39
We probably all have seen one of the people from the title in action at some point in our lives, we seen people perform seemingly un-explainable feats
Yet under closer examination all of them abide the laws of physics and have a natural explanation. There was zero magic tricks performed under a scientific setting that proved to be unexplained by what we know about the natural world. James Randi a "magician" by trade, but a sceptic of the spiritual had issued a 1 million prize to anyone who could prove in a scientific setting that such forces exist, yet no one was able to claim it for last 60 years.

If demons, evil spirits , fallen angels , ghosts and other unseen forces are real why have we never been able to observe a single instance since the invention of the camera.

And if they are not real how can we believe in faith healing and other acts recorded in the bible as something more then just metaphors and myth stories like Zues and other god's leading up to that time ?
Simple answer.. God does not want to be proven by scientific method..

God want's to draw people by His WORD.... His Message... and Jesus... Jesus is the Word of God..

So it is not beyond God to prevent a miracle happening if it is being observed and measured by scientists.. A person may be able through the power of the Holy Spirit to heal others.. But if they try to prove it to people who disbelieve in the Message of God like anti-christian skeptics who hate the Word of God.. Then God no doubt will prevent any miracles happening around those people..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,558
2,259
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#40
I believed in God and it meant everything to me, It coloured how I saw the world it gave me meaning and it gave me strength then, then one day I couldn't believe, I had questions, I had doubts, and they couldn't be answered, I searched, I wanted to believe and I tried, I struggled to make myself believe again, But I couldn't pretend I did without knowing that it was a lie ,so here is my question can a person simply choose to believe in something that they are not convinced of if not and God created our brains to require a certain level of evidence in order to be convinced. Why has he chosen to not provide that level of evidence for us. Even when though I wanted to believe
It's not the level of evidence that you seem to be desiring by the type of evidence ( scientific evidence/ non Biblical evidence ) As in evidence outside the message of God..

So i am curious what was one of the questions no one could answer?

Also how can you know irrefutably that ""it was a lie"" what was the lie?