WWJD?

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HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
5,986
2,314
113
#2
Christian nationalism is a temptation.

It tempts us to place the important elements of our country on the same level as the sacred elements of our faith.

It tempts us to equate the American narrative with the narrative of ancient Israel we read about in our scriptures.

It tempts us to equate America’s mission in the world with Christ’s mission in the world.

It tempts us to equate our preferred partisan legislation and our vote with God’s will.

It tempts us to equate America’s founding fathers with the martyrs and the saints of our faith.

It tempts us to equate our preferred presidents with Old Testament kings.

It tempts us to equate the constitution with our Holy Scriptures.

It tempts us to equate the invitation to the Lord’s table where holy communion is placed, with our own demands for political conformity.

It tempts us to equate the flag with the cross.

Pastor Benjamin Cremer
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,551
6,715
113
62
#3
Are you suggesting nations should not have borders? Are you suggesting that laws established by government should be disobeyed? Are you suggesting that the only way to help people is to bring them to a wealthy nation? Should people be helped with money that people as yet unborn should pay for?
Could God not end poverty tomorrow? Did Jesus not say that the poor will always be with you? Does anyone have the right to take from one to give to another?

Lest you think I don't believe in charity, or that we will all give an account for our stewardship of the manifold blessings of God, this is hardly the point. Because government has replaced the church as the source of aid to the needy, we have secular entities creating a permanent underclass void of attention to their deepest need. My argument isn't against charity, but against faux charity that seeks its own gain while making use of the resources of some to create dependency in others.

If you are truly serious about change, your argument is with the church which has abdicated its responsibility and government which seeks its own gain. Freedom is lost by all.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,268
736
113
#4
Christian nationalism is a temptation.

It tempts us to place the important elements of our country on the same level as the sacred elements of our faith.

It tempts us to equate the American narrative with the narrative of ancient Israel we read about in our scriptures.

It tempts us to equate America’s mission in the world with Christ’s mission in the world.

It tempts us to equate our preferred partisan legislation and our vote with God’s will.

It tempts us to equate America’s founding fathers with the martyrs and the saints of our faith.

It tempts us to equate our preferred presidents with Old Testament kings.

It tempts us to equate the constitution with our Holy Scriptures.

It tempts us to equate the invitation to the Lord’s table where holy communion is placed, with our own demands for political conformity.

It tempts us to equate the flag with the cross.

Pastor Benjamin Cremer
I love it!

May I use it elsewhere?
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,268
736
113
#5
Are you suggesting nations should not have borders? Are you suggesting that laws established by government should be disobeyed? Are you suggesting that the only way to help people is to bring them to a wealthy nation? Should people be helped with money that people as yet unborn should pay for?
Could God not end poverty tomorrow? Did Jesus not say that the poor will always be with you? Does anyone have the right to take from one to give to another?

Lest you think I don't believe in charity, or that we will all give an account for our stewardship of the manifold blessings of God, this is hardly the point. Because government has replaced the church as the source of aid to the needy, we have secular entities creating a permanent underclass void of attention to their deepest need. My argument isn't against charity, but against faux charity that seeks its own gain while making use of the resources of some to create dependency in others.

If you are truly serious about change, your argument is with the church which has abdicated its responsibility and government which seeks its own gain. Freedom is lost by all.
All your points are valid.

My point is;

1. DO NOT conflate the cross with politics, because they are most often in conflict with each other.

2. When the government is at odds with the teachings of Jesus, well, choose whom you will serve.
 

SaysWhat

Active member
Jan 17, 2024
279
51
28
#7
2. When the government is at odds with the teachings of Jesus, well, choose whom you will serve.
How can that be accomplished? While living in governmental countries.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,268
736
113
#8
How can that be accomplished? While living in governmental countries.
2 Timothy 2: 3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,994
6,800
113
#9
Rumors of War

The word translated as rumors in Matthew 24 is the same word G189:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame G189 went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Just as Jesus coming on the scene would cause His fame to go throughout the land as people talk about what they had seen and heard, in the same way we'll see this when the Antichrist begins to rise.

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing G189 ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

People are listening to the news, to the pundits, to the talking heads desperately trying to understand what is going on but in the end they are simply more confused because they are going to those who have a vested interest in manipulating the populace to find the truth.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours G189 of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus is warning us of how Satan operates. He is a liar, he is the father of lies, and he is adept at gaslighting. He will control the media and he will be using it to trouble people, to divide them, and to gaslight them.

Mark 7:35 And straightway his ears G189 were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

This man had Satan stopping up his ears. Let the Lord touch your ears, let the word from the Lord's mouth touch your tongue.

Luke 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience G189 of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

Who are you listening to? Jesus knew at the end of the age it will be the TV age and everyone would become the audience for the TV and through that Satan would trouble you. Turn off the TV, and tune into the words of the Lord.

John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? G189 and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Do not listen to the report from liars and those who are divisive. CNN and MSNBC have been exposed repeatedly of being liars with the intent of being divisive. Stop listening to them, they are the ones troubling you.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, G189 and hearing G189 by the word of God.

The Lord ministers faith by speaking the words of faith and we are filled with faith by hearing these words. In the same way Satan ministers anxiety by speaking rumors of war and people are filled with anxiety by hearing rumors of war.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, G2360 neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This word troubled is what the Lord warned us about in Matthew 24, the goal of the rumors of war is that we would be troubled, shaken in mind.

It is the same word as "a reed shaken by the wind" and the same word that "the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken".

Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake G4531 it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Our faith needs to be founded upon a rock, upon Jesus, upon the word of God, upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. The reason that God allows all this gaslighting is to see whose faith cannot be shaken and whose is shaken.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should G4531 ➔ not be moved: G4531

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be G4531 ➔ not soon shaken G4531 in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, G4531 as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken G4531 may remain.
 

SaysWhat

Active member
Jan 17, 2024
279
51
28
#10
2 Timothy 2: 3 Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer.
That didn't answer the question, how to live while in a government controlled country. Pay taxes, follow the laws on the books of the country?
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,268
736
113
#11
Rumors of War

The word translated as rumors in Matthew 24 is the same word G189:

Matthew 4:24 And his fame G189 went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.

Just as Jesus coming on the scene would cause His fame to go throughout the land as people talk about what they had seen and heard, in the same way we'll see this when the Antichrist begins to rise.

Matthew 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing G189 ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

People are listening to the news, to the pundits, to the talking heads desperately trying to understand what is going on but in the end they are simply more confused because they are going to those who have a vested interest in manipulating the populace to find the truth.

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours G189 of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus is warning us of how Satan operates. He is a liar, he is the father of lies, and he is adept at gaslighting. He will control the media and he will be using it to trouble people, to divide them, and to gaslight them.

Mark 7:35 And straightway his ears G189 were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.

This man had Satan stopping up his ears. Let the Lord touch your ears, let the word from the Lord's mouth touch your tongue.

Luke 7:1 Now when he had ended all his sayings in the audience G189 of the people, he entered into Capernaum.

Who are you listening to? Jesus knew at the end of the age it will be the TV age and everyone would become the audience for the TV and through that Satan would trouble you. Turn off the TV, and tune into the words of the Lord.

John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? G189 and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

Do not listen to the report from liars and those who are divisive. CNN and MSNBC have been exposed repeatedly of being liars with the intent of being divisive. Stop listening to them, they are the ones troubling you.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, G189 and hearing G189 by the word of God.

The Lord ministers faith by speaking the words of faith and we are filled with faith by hearing these words. In the same way Satan ministers anxiety by speaking rumors of war and people are filled with anxiety by hearing rumors of war.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, G2360 neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

This word troubled is what the Lord warned us about in Matthew 24, the goal of the rumors of war is that we would be troubled, shaken in mind.

It is the same word as "a reed shaken by the wind" and the same word that "the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken".

Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake G4531 it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Our faith needs to be founded upon a rock, upon Jesus, upon the word of God, upon the revelation of Jesus Christ. The reason that God allows all this gaslighting is to see whose faith cannot be shaken and whose is shaken.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should G4531 ➔ not be moved: G4531

2 Thessalonians 2:2 That ye be G4531 ➔ not soon shaken G4531 in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Hebrews 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, G4531 as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken G4531 may remain.
Excellent, I think I'll save this one.

But can you elaborate on how this applies to the OP?

I think this deserves it's own thread.
 

JTB

Well-known member
Aug 31, 2021
2,268
736
113
#12
That didn't answer the question, how to live while in a government controlled country. Pay taxes, follow the laws on the books of the country?
That is what Jesus said, render unto Caesar and all. But when man's laws conflict with God's laws, we have to follow God.
I think the point here is that, while Jesus taught us how we should live, He never forced anyone to follow His teachings, and He never petitioned Rome to codify His teachings. And that is where we are at now, too many Christians want the government to enforce what they believe are Christ's teachings.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,994
6,800
113
#13
Excellent, I think I'll save this one.

But can you elaborate on how this applies to the OP?

I think this deserves it's own thread.
The OP describes how people manipulate what Jesus says and how they try to manipulate people into their agenda. This mind control is done through the media. Jesus foresaw that the day would come when Satan would control the airwaves since he is the prince of the power of the air and that he would use these airwaves to manipulate people. "Rumors of war" could be translated as "report of war" or "hearing of war". So what are the airwaves filled with? Reports of war, on both sides. Both sides are trying to get people to be shaken in mind and troubled.
 

SaysWhat

Active member
Jan 17, 2024
279
51
28
#14
That is what Jesus said, render unto Caesar and all. But when man's laws conflict with God's laws, we have to follow God.
I think the point here is that, while Jesus taught us how we should live, He never forced anyone to follow His teachings, and He never petitioned Rome to codify His teachings. And that is where we are at now, too many Christians want the government to enforce what they believe are Christ's teachings.
What would be an example of Christians wanting the government to enforce their belief?. I'm not familiar with such things
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
8,338
3,631
113
#15
What would be an example of Christians wanting the government to enforce their belief?. I'm not familiar with such things
There are a lot of so-called Christians who think the government should be under the authority of apostles and prophets. Most of them are affiliated with the New Apostolic Reformation in some form or fashion. I posted a video of one of them saying exactly that but I can't remember off the top of my head where it is. I'll look for it tomorrow.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
#16
What would be an example of Christians wanting the government to enforce their belief?. I'm not familiar with such things
Christians believe abortion is murder, and want it outlawed. Roe vs Wade was recently overturned after how many years?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,554
29,796
113
#17

2 Corinthians 10:4 plus Matthew 24:6 ~ The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.:)
 

SaysWhat

Active member
Jan 17, 2024
279
51
28
#18
Christians believe abortion is murder, and want it outlawed. Roe vs Wade was recently overturned after how many years?
Its interesting in 1973 when Roe vs Wade was passed, about 90% of U.S adults identified as Christian.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,994
6,800
113
#20
What would be an example of Christians wanting the government to enforce their belief?. I'm not familiar with such things
Here are a few examples of Government enforcing pagan beliefs.

Legalizing abortion which is a fundamental to several pagan religions involving the worship of sex.

Making Pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter national holidays.

Forbidding the Bible to be taught while making the Koran and Hindu scriptures part of a course on religion.