Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?
- Thread starter ChosenbyHim
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No it is not a heresy. It is Bible Doctrine. The Bible teaches a pre-tribulation Rapture. Study the word of God and rightly divide it. And continue seeking the Lord in prayer regarding this issue Zone. Because you are very, very wrong on your views about the timing of the Rapture.
The Dispensations and different administrations are in the Scriptures. Go and study it out. You are in very serious error Zone.
Also, here is a really good video on the Dispensations in the Bible. I highly recommend that you watch it.
Reconciling God's Word - by Dr. Douglas D. Stauffer
[video=youtube;nDS4IkYvLx0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDS4IkYvLx0[/video]
Also, you may want to get this book and read it.
Hello everyone, I just wanted to share this post with you all to show you that Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching was not a modern invention by Darby and Scofield. I realize that more and more people are coming out with this silly notion, idea, and claim that Dispensationalism was not taught before the time of John Nelson Darby. And because a lot of people don't do their own research and study into the matter, a lot of them end up believing the false claim that Dispensationalism wasn't around before the 1800s.
So the purpose of this post is to simply show you that Dispensational Bible Teaching was around long before the 1800s. In fact, your going to find that it was even around in the Second Century.
So to begin; here are some of the Dispensation Systems and layouts which were developed way before Darby was even born:
William Gouge who was born in 1575, developed the following the follwing 6 Dispensations Layout: Adam to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to David; David to the Captivity; the Captivity to the Birth of Christ; the Birth of Christ to the Great White Throne Judgment. Now what should be pointed out is that Gouge's system left out the Mosaic Covenant. And in regard to Gouge's layout, Dr. Peter Ruckman pointed out that his layout ended up "spiritualizing three-fourths of the Old Testament, teaching no restoration of Israel, and no Millennial Reign." (Ruckman, How To Teach Dispensational Truth, Pg.6)
Another Dispensational System and layout that was given before John Nelson Darby's time was that of Pierre Poiret (1646-1719). And Poiret gave a Premillennial System. He gave the following Dispensational System by describing the following: "The Oeconomy of the Creation; the Oeconomy of Sin; the Oeconomy of the Restoration; the Oeconomy of the Incarnation; the Oeconomy of the Cooperation of Man with the Operation of God, and the Oeconomy of Universal Providence. And Poiret's seventh Dispensation was a physical, literal, one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ (according to Arnold Ehlert; in his work, A Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism [ Grand Rapids: Baker book House, 1965], p. 35).
So to sum up Poiret's Dispensational System, he had Seven Dispensations in Six volumes.
Isaac Watts (1674-1748) also discerned that there were Divisions and Dispensations in the Holy Bible, and this was his Dispensational Set up: "The Dispensation of Innocency; The Dispensation of the Covenant of Grace; The Noahical Dispensation; The Abrahamical Dispensation, The Mosaical Dispensation, and the Christian Dispensation. Now what should be obvious to point out though, Mr. Watts did miss the Davidic Covenant. Plus, he also missed the Pre-tribulation Rapture, the Tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble), the Restoration of Israel, and the Millennium.
And here are some more Dispensational Systems which have been developed and worked out long before John Nelson Darby's time (1800 - 1882).
John Taylor of Norwich (1694-1751), John Flechiere (1729-1785), John Priestley (1733-1804), David Bogue ( 1750-1825), Adam Clarke (1762-1832), George Faber (1773-1843), and David Russell (1779-1848).
And all these Dispensatuional Systems were worked out before John Darby, C.I. Scofied (1843-1921), and Clarence Larkin (1850-1924).
So contrary to the popular misteaching that Dispensational Bible study and Teaching was somehow first developed by Darby, the quite opposite is the truth. And the simple truth of the matter is that Dispensational Bible Study has been around for a very long time. And while Darby, Scofield, and Larkin all did a great work in the study of Dispensational Bible Study; and while they with their books and other works have surely contributed greatly to this unique and Biblical system and method of Bible Study, these three men were by no means the first to discover different ages and dispensations in God's holy word.
According to Crutchfield, Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), believed in four phases of human history in God's program.
First phase was from Adam to Abraham
Second Phase was from Abraham to Moses
The Third was from Moses to Christ
And the Fourth was from Christ to the Eternal State (Eternity).
Alongside Justin Martyr was Irenaeus (AD120-202), and his Dispensational Theme went like this:
1. From the Creation to the Flood.
2. From the Flood to the Law.
3. From the Law to the Gospel.
4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.
So Irenaeus's Dispensational layout was quite similar to Justin Martyr's in that both of their Dispensational layouts had four ages or dispensations to them.
Furthermore, Irenaeus taught that there were four zones of the world and of mankind. He saw a connection between the four zones, the faces of the four living creatures, the four gospels, and the four dispensations.
And to conclude, I will include here a quote by Crutchfield in a study he did in regard to the very early Dispensational Layouts of Martyr and Irenaeus in comparison to the modern Dispensational Systems:
"Some Fathers set forth only four such dispensations, others came very close to making nearly the same divisions modern dispensationalists do, Irenaeus, Victorinus of Petau, and Methodius' number of dispensations is artificially restricted to four ... the dispensations are most often spoken of the early fathers in terms of the prominent persons (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Christ). Dispensational divisions were customarily made along the boundaries of these five men's lives and times." - Crutchfiled concludes in his own study on the history of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.
So again, don't believe the false statement that Dispensationalsm only recently came about by Darby and Larkin. This falsehood and lie is continually made by those who simply refuse to be dispensational and who refuse to obey the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15. Hence, false prophets like Steven Anderson who fails to rightly divide the word of truth, are constantly attacking the Biblical system of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.
And for those of you out there who are interested in taking a look into Dispensational Bible Teaching and Study, I recommend Larkin's book: Dispensational Truth, Dr. Doug Stauffer's One Book Rightly Divided, and also Dr. Peter Ruckman's book: How To Tach Dispensational Truth.
There is also a wealth of good sermons out there on Dispensational Truth that you can find simply by going onwww.Sermonaudio.com
Bryan Denlinger does a couple of sermons on this subject, as does Gregory A. Miller, Alan Cairns, and Elder Ronald Lawrence. I highly recommend all of them.
Well everyone, I hope this helped. And please prayerfully consider in studying this matter. It is so important for students of the Bible to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth. To learn how to discover the ages and different dispensations in the Holy Scriptures. The different Dispensations which God has clearly placed in His word. And to acknowledge that those divisions, ages, and dispensations are there.
O
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Chosen,
Of course Darby wasn't the founder for the Rapture theory. His ideas come from earlier people as you note. I believe in a level of dispensationalism too. That's all well and good. Many of the authors you cite contribute valuable lessons. Granted. However, none should be taken as a higher authority that Jesus Christ. Jesus does not lie, and although he uses parables so that the blind won't see, he wasn't talking in a parable in the Olivet Discourse. Therefore His Words must be taken literally and seriously and they trump the works of all the best minds, religious or otherwise ever created.
Jesus clearly teaches that the "gathering of His Elect happens AFTER the tribulation of those days, Not before. Those that cite pre-wrath has it right as Jesus wasn't talking about after the wrath was poured out, just after the tribulation. However, those who aren't well versed in this stuff could be in the "firing zone" when the time comes if his warnings are not heeded.
Of course Darby wasn't the founder for the Rapture theory. His ideas come from earlier people as you note. I believe in a level of dispensationalism too. That's all well and good. Many of the authors you cite contribute valuable lessons. Granted. However, none should be taken as a higher authority that Jesus Christ. Jesus does not lie, and although he uses parables so that the blind won't see, he wasn't talking in a parable in the Olivet Discourse. Therefore His Words must be taken literally and seriously and they trump the works of all the best minds, religious or otherwise ever created.
Jesus clearly teaches that the "gathering of His Elect happens AFTER the tribulation of those days, Not before. Those that cite pre-wrath has it right as Jesus wasn't talking about after the wrath was poured out, just after the tribulation. However, those who aren't well versed in this stuff could be in the "firing zone" when the time comes if his warnings are not heeded.
Zone, no it is not heresy.
It is the truth. It is how God wrote His word. That is why He commands us to study, and to rightly divide the word of truth.
The word of God teaches a pre-trib. rapture. And there are different dispensations in the Bible. Start acknowledging the fact that those dispensations are there and that you are going to have to rightly divide the word of truth.
It is the truth. It is how God wrote His word. That is why He commands us to study, and to rightly divide the word of truth.
The word of God teaches a pre-trib. rapture. And there are different dispensations in the Bible. Start acknowledging the fact that those dispensations are there and that you are going to have to rightly divide the word of truth.
Chosen,
Your dispensation theory even suggests a post Trib Rapture.
1. From the Creation to the Flood.
2. From the Flood to the Law.
3. From the Law to the Gospel.
4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.
Eternal state could just as easily state when the kingdom of Jesus is declared at the 7th trumpet as it could if there was a Rapture Pre-trib.
But there are holes in the 4 dispensations you mention. The law wasn't given until Moses many hundreds of years after the Flood. I believe "NUMBERS" are very important to God as is symmetry. We can dice this in a hundred different ways. We could take the period from Creation until Israel (under Jacob) was formed and chosen as God's people as the first 2,000 years under God's direct rule. Then we could take the 2,000 year period of Israel most of which dealt with prophets and the promise of Jesus. Then we can take the 2,000 year period since Pentecost where the Holy Spirit has the lead.
My point is these are all cool theories and in a book as big as the Bible, it is easy to find passages that suggest anything you want. That is why we have so many denominations out there.
But there is only one true religion - Christ's. And it is the Word of God that is the final arbiter of all things. I enjoy trying to find new things in the Bible not widely known (as I'm sure Darby was) but I would never throw out the clear words of Jesus Christ in favor of man's words. The belief there is a rapture of the church BEFORE the tribulation is over is at best disbelieving our Lord and Savior and at worst is calling Jesus a liar. Neither are good options.
I struggled with this too for about a year when the evidence was shown to me. For me to finally "get it" I had to teat it like a physics problem.
I took Post Trib theory as assumed truth then tested against all scripture that I knew of to see if it would stand up. It did. I then did the same with Pre-Trib and I couldn't get any scripture that clearly placed the Rapture before the tribulation or had two separate "gatherings" because Jesus is as clear as day when He said in Matthew and Mark, "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days... They (angels) will gather His elect from the four winds." That statement is so powerful and so clear and so far you haven't been able to repudiate it.
Dear Brother-in-Christ Chosen, I urge you to open your eyes and read the Words of Jesus and Paul so that you may join this crusade to undo all the harm that has been done by Satan to so much of our Church. I have hope for you dear brother because you at least have now seen the truth so when the Trib comes (and I believe it will be soon and have strong reasons to believe so) you will Not turn away from God but rather then will know you have to endure to the 7th trumpet.
Remember, it all started with a lie. Evolution was the lie Satan told to convince the world there is no God. Pre-Trib Rapture is the lie Satan continues to tell to cause the Church to "fall away" and turn upon itself, even to deceive the Elect during the Tribulation. If you know how Satan works you have to assume he has done something big this close to the end. This is it my brother. Remember how cunning he is, how perfect and wonderful his lies sound - better than the truth:
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; [SUP]3 [/SUP]but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Your dispensation theory even suggests a post Trib Rapture.
1. From the Creation to the Flood.
2. From the Flood to the Law.
3. From the Law to the Gospel.
4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.
Eternal state could just as easily state when the kingdom of Jesus is declared at the 7th trumpet as it could if there was a Rapture Pre-trib.
But there are holes in the 4 dispensations you mention. The law wasn't given until Moses many hundreds of years after the Flood. I believe "NUMBERS" are very important to God as is symmetry. We can dice this in a hundred different ways. We could take the period from Creation until Israel (under Jacob) was formed and chosen as God's people as the first 2,000 years under God's direct rule. Then we could take the 2,000 year period of Israel most of which dealt with prophets and the promise of Jesus. Then we can take the 2,000 year period since Pentecost where the Holy Spirit has the lead.
My point is these are all cool theories and in a book as big as the Bible, it is easy to find passages that suggest anything you want. That is why we have so many denominations out there.
But there is only one true religion - Christ's. And it is the Word of God that is the final arbiter of all things. I enjoy trying to find new things in the Bible not widely known (as I'm sure Darby was) but I would never throw out the clear words of Jesus Christ in favor of man's words. The belief there is a rapture of the church BEFORE the tribulation is over is at best disbelieving our Lord and Savior and at worst is calling Jesus a liar. Neither are good options.
I struggled with this too for about a year when the evidence was shown to me. For me to finally "get it" I had to teat it like a physics problem.
I took Post Trib theory as assumed truth then tested against all scripture that I knew of to see if it would stand up. It did. I then did the same with Pre-Trib and I couldn't get any scripture that clearly placed the Rapture before the tribulation or had two separate "gatherings" because Jesus is as clear as day when He said in Matthew and Mark, "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days... They (angels) will gather His elect from the four winds." That statement is so powerful and so clear and so far you haven't been able to repudiate it.
Dear Brother-in-Christ Chosen, I urge you to open your eyes and read the Words of Jesus and Paul so that you may join this crusade to undo all the harm that has been done by Satan to so much of our Church. I have hope for you dear brother because you at least have now seen the truth so when the Trib comes (and I believe it will be soon and have strong reasons to believe so) you will Not turn away from God but rather then will know you have to endure to the 7th trumpet.
Remember, it all started with a lie. Evolution was the lie Satan told to convince the world there is no God. Pre-Trib Rapture is the lie Satan continues to tell to cause the Church to "fall away" and turn upon itself, even to deceive the Elect during the Tribulation. If you know how Satan works you have to assume he has done something big this close to the end. This is it my brother. Remember how cunning he is, how perfect and wonderful his lies sound - better than the truth:
3 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; [SUP]3 [/SUP]but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Last edited:
I considered that, believe me. But then I am left with wondering what Paul was talking about in 2 Thes 2 and 1 Cor 15:52. Thessalonica and Corinth were both Greek cities therefore Paul was writing to the Gentile churches. Paul too places the "gathering" at the Last Trump and after the Son of Perdition is revealed. It is just too hard for me to buy into two separate raptures occurring appox 3.5 years apart. To do so, I needed to see two raptures discussed in one passage. But I couldn't find it.
Then it occurred to me, two "gatherings" isn't there because it was never taught because it isn't going to happen. Then everything fit into place for me. Jesus wouldn't teach that there isn't a second rapture to disprove a negative, because he taught to believe in Him and that His words are true. If the Lord had two separate raptures, he would have been sure to teach it so as not to confuse the two. The Lord isn't about confusing people, he is ALL ABOUT TRUTH. TRUTH is a MAJOR MAJOR core principle with Jesus. Therefore if Jesus didn't teach two raptures, than the one must be of Satan. I hope this helps.
Then it occurred to me, two "gatherings" isn't there because it was never taught because it isn't going to happen. Then everything fit into place for me. Jesus wouldn't teach that there isn't a second rapture to disprove a negative, because he taught to believe in Him and that His words are true. If the Lord had two separate raptures, he would have been sure to teach it so as not to confuse the two. The Lord isn't about confusing people, he is ALL ABOUT TRUTH. TRUTH is a MAJOR MAJOR core principle with Jesus. Therefore if Jesus didn't teach two raptures, than the one must be of Satan. I hope this helps.
Chosen,
I have one more little tidbit for you:
Rev 10:6-7 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Doesn't it bother you that everything that is clearly written concerning the timing of the Lord's coming and gathering points to the last or 7th trumpet? If not, it should.
I have one more little tidbit for you:
Rev 10:6-7 And swore by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that are in it, and the earth, and the things that are in it, and the sea, and the things which are in it, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Doesn't it bother you that everything that is clearly written concerning the timing of the Lord's coming and gathering points to the last or 7th trumpet? If not, it should.
Plain, I have been over this with you before, I am not going to have to endure the tribulation. Remember, the tribulation or the time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Christians. It is not for the Body of Christ.
It is the time of Jacob's trouble.
Not the Church's trouble, or the Christian's trouble.
Plain, you have been deceived in believing what I call the Post Trib. Rapture theory. It does not work.
Let me ask you a question Plain, do you believe in the Eternal Security of the true Born again Believer?
And do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith for salvation in this dispensation? And that absolutely no works are involved with our salvation?
It is the time of Jacob's trouble.
Not the Church's trouble, or the Christian's trouble.
Plain, you have been deceived in believing what I call the Post Trib. Rapture theory. It does not work.
Let me ask you a question Plain, do you believe in the Eternal Security of the true Born again Believer?
And do you believe that we are saved by grace through faith for salvation in this dispensation? And that absolutely no works are involved with our salvation?
Absolutely, you are welcome plain. Hey we all make mistakes, we have all allowed our flesh to get the better of us at times. I could tell you the many times when I have let my flesh get the best of me. So again, no worries.
And thank you for your apology and admitting where you were wrong. It takes a grown and mature Christian to do that. Not a lot of people will do that.
the time of Jacob's Trouble is long over, buddy.
70AD.
snap out of it.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/63663-herods.html
Actually Chosen,
I have not been deceived for I have searched the scriptures daily for years and cannot find a single passage that supports the Pre-Trib Rapture view. You my dear friend are the one deceived. I have found many passages that support the Rapture or "gathering" of saints at the 7th Trumpet which is of course mid-Trib, pre-wrath.
I have challenged you repeatedly to provide one passage that clearly puts the "rapture" BEFORE the Tribulation or as an alternative clearly has two returns of Christ which would allow for the theory of an earlier rapture of the church to occur. You have failed on both counts. Instead you cite passages that don't clearly state either needed fact, you cite works of men, and you use conjecture to twist the Word. It is indisputable that Christ does come and is gathering saints at the last or 7th trumpet. Those passages are clear and do not rely on dispensational or other doctrines of men.
With that, it is clear to me that you are set in your mind and in the face of all the scriptures that have been cited, you will not open your eyes. Unfortunately you fall into the category of the old axiom, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." That does not change that I love you as a brother in Christ and wish you the best.
I have not been deceived for I have searched the scriptures daily for years and cannot find a single passage that supports the Pre-Trib Rapture view. You my dear friend are the one deceived. I have found many passages that support the Rapture or "gathering" of saints at the 7th Trumpet which is of course mid-Trib, pre-wrath.
I have challenged you repeatedly to provide one passage that clearly puts the "rapture" BEFORE the Tribulation or as an alternative clearly has two returns of Christ which would allow for the theory of an earlier rapture of the church to occur. You have failed on both counts. Instead you cite passages that don't clearly state either needed fact, you cite works of men, and you use conjecture to twist the Word. It is indisputable that Christ does come and is gathering saints at the last or 7th trumpet. Those passages are clear and do not rely on dispensational or other doctrines of men.
With that, it is clear to me that you are set in your mind and in the face of all the scriptures that have been cited, you will not open your eyes. Unfortunately you fall into the category of the old axiom, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." That does not change that I love you as a brother in Christ and wish you the best.