Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[penknight]

Why did you avoid answering my simple question?


Did Naaman doing the work of going and dipping mean his healing was earned and not of grace? Yes? No?

That has noting to do with what I've told you. Now you're the one whose setting up a straw man. I didn't answer your question directly because it had nothing to do with salvation. I'm NOT clarifying obedience itself. Understand?

Now, Let me ask you something seabass, have you done everything in the great commission at least once?

 

[penknight]

...and working to meet the attached conditions cannot earn the free gift already being given. This is a very simple concept some have trouble understanding while others simply do not care to understand it.

Biblical examples:


Exodus 16:

God owed the Israelites nothing but because of His grace God sent them the free gift of manna. Yet the free gift came with the condition of the Israelites doing the work of gathering the manna. Had the Israelites not done the work of gathering the manna (faith only) then they would have remained hungry. Therefore they must have done the work of gathering the manna in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of gathering earned them nothing.

I can't believe I didn't notice that before. Now I'm confused, it looks like you just defeated the entire purpose if your thread by typing that. Tell me what you think a work is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Working to take care of the puppy was a condition that came with the puppy. You are not going to be given a puppy you will not take care of. If you do not work to take care of it then you give it back.

Thats the point,

if your going to pay for it, Your not going to get it.
If you have to give it back. it was NEVER A GIFT to begin with, it was never YOURS to begin with, it always belonged to the master. You just borrowed it.

The point being avoided is your working to care for the puppy does not in anyway mean you earned the puppy.

if you have to work to keep the puppy, you had to earn the puppy.

Wow dude, please do not offer me a gift. Your an indian giver, a deciever and a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The first few post I made in this thread have proven free gifts can come with conditions and working to meet those conditions earn nothing.

Your straw man is getting old and tired.

you have not proved anything. all you have done is prove you are trying to EARN salvation. Mocking God and his love.

Feel free to mock God. Its your eternity at stake,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can't believe I didn't notice that before. Now I'm confused, it looks like you just defeated the entire purpose if your thread by typing that. Tell me what you think a work is.

stick around for awhile. he has a habit of doing that to himself

 

[SeaBass]

perhaps it would be prudent for you to read 2 Kings 5...

I have:

2 Kings 5:

God did not owe Naaman anything but because of God's grace He would heal Naaman's disease. Yet this free gift came to Naaman with the condition that he do the work of going and dipping in the Jordan River 7 times. Had Naaman not done the work of dipping (faith only) then he would have maintained his disease. Therefore Naaman must have done the work of dipping in order to receive this free gift from God yet the work of dipping earned Naaman nothing.

 

[SeaBass]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Is this a promise? What is the condition of this promise? whosoever believes in him

Some are not saved because:

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned alrady, because he hkath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Who is condemned? he who has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

Is that a promise? Is it assured that 'he who has not believed is condemned? So if that promise is given as a surety why not John 3:16?

Jn 3:5------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Lk 13:3,5---------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved

So Christ made repentance on par with believing in being saved. Since there is just only one way to be saved/not perish, then that must mean belief INCLUDES repentance. So all the "belief only" in the world will never save an impenitent person.

Lk 13:3,5. Mt 10:32,33 and Mk 16:16 are words/promises of Christ as much as Jn 3:16. So those that are saved per heb 5:9 are the ones that do as Christ says (Lk 6:46) in believing repenting confession and being baptized.

 

[SeaBass]

That has noting to do with what I've told you. Now you're the one whose setting up a straw man. I didn't answer your question directly because it had nothing to do with salvation. I'm NOT clarifying obedience itself. Understand?

Now, Let me ask you something seabass, have you done everything in the great commission at least once?

Yes, I obey the great commission.

Now answer my question:

Did Naaman doing the work of going and dipping mean his healing was earned and not of grace? Yes? No?

 

[SeaBass]

I can't believe I didn't notice that before. Now I'm confused, it looks like you just defeated the entire purpose if your thread by typing that. Tell me what you think a work is.

Work is an action, it is something done as Naaman going a dipping is a work done.

As the Israelites gathering manna in the wilderness was a work.

Some try and deny what a work is to get around the problem they have with this thread.

 

[SeaBass]

Thats the point,

if your going to pay for it, Your not going to get it.
If you have to give it back. it was NEVER A GIFT to begin with, it was never YOURS to begin with, it always belonged to the master. You just borrowed it.



if you have to work to keep the puppy, you had to earn the puppy.

Wow dude, please do not offer me a gift. Your an indian giver, a deciever and a liar.

No one said anything about paying for the puppy.

The puppy is being offered to you for FREE but comes with the condition you must work to take care of it. So you ACCEPT the free puppy along with the condition of taking care of it. So does the work you do in caring for the puppy mean you earned the puppy? No in any way.

Just as God put conditions upon His free gift of salvation working to meet those condition cannot in anyway earn the free gift.

 

[SeaBass]

you have not proved anything. all you have done is prove you are trying to EARN salvation. Mocking God and his love.

Feel free to mock God. Its your eternity at stake,

Did Naaman's work in going and dipping mean he earned his own healing therefore grace had nothing to do with it?

 

[SeaBass]

I can't believe I didn't notice that before. Now I'm confused, it looks like you just defeated the entire purpose if your thread by typing that. Tell me what you think a work is.

Are you going to deny that gathering is a work?

 

[penknight]

Yes, I obey the great commission.

Now answer my question:

Did Naaman doing the work of going and dipping mean his healing was earned and not of grace? Yes? No?

No, but what does Naaman have to with works that come from faith concerning salvation? That's why I didn't answer the you wanted because your missing the point what I'm trying to say. Don't debate anything if you're not willing to establish some common ground.

 

[penknight]

Are you going to deny that gathering is a work?

1.) I never said gathering wasn't a work, I said receiving a free gift is not a work.

2.) I asked you what you thought a work is for clarification because I was confused.

3.) We are arguing pro-grace. The way your reasoning seems as if you support both and oppose a work based faith which is confusing. Dude, listen to me. Please read your first post, and the one about asking the question about Naaman, they contradict what you're to say. You make it sound we have to make a payment on the free gift by continuing to do works, doing it that way means were renting it (or renting to own) and it's not ours. Jesus made the gift of salvation unconditional free to all, but accepting only means that you should have eternal life. Here's where the gray area clears up some: The works come from a living faith, meaning you do them because you want to change and you love God. If you do works because you feel that you have to do them to be saved (which it looks like your to advocate) You cheapen God's grace by trying to pay Him back or earn your salvation. This what I'm trying to say.

So let me get something else straight, you've literally done all of this?
[h=1]Matthew 28:18-20Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost[/h]I already know you'll respond, because this isn't about setting the record straight (not anymore), this is about you not wanting to lose this debate, whether you want to admit it or not your letting your pride get in way. And of course you're going to deny it, but are to convince me, yourself, or God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No one said anything about paying for the puppy.

You did. You pay for it by taking care of it (work). It was prevelent in the OT. People paid for things with their time and hard work all the time. In fact they could pay of their debt owed someone by doing this.

Yuo can not even comprehend what this means. I know. Thats so sad

The puppy is being offered to you for FREE but comes with the condition you must work to take care of it.

Then it was not free You had to pay for it by taking the time, hard work, and money required to take care of it.

So you ACCEPT the free puppy along with the condition of taking care of it. So does the work you do in caring for the puppy mean you earned the puppy? No in any way.

Just as God put conditions upon His free gift of salvation working to meet those condition cannot in anyway earn the free gift.

1. God did not put conditions, your forcing conditions.
2. The puppy was not free, yes you did not pay money for it. You paid the hard work to keep it. thus it still was not free. Again, this example is shown over and over in the OT. You pay debts off with work like this. So you were EARNING your freedom of debt.

We owe a debt to God. The debt is our life (since we are condemned. That debt must be paid for. That is the ONLY condition placed on salvation.

So who paid the debt? You and all your many conditions? Or Jesus on the cross.

You need to choose.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did Naaman's work in going and dipping mean he earned his own healing therefore grace had nothing to do with it?

Naaman was healed according to the law. Or have you not read the law, and what a person had to do to become clean?

We are not saved by the law.

What work did the lame man do to have his sin forgiven (be healed) You know. the one Jesus said what is the difference if I say you sins are forgiven, or rise up and walk? What condition did he meat?

How about the many blind men and women, or the lepars which did nothing before they were healed.

You seem to like picking one verse and making a whole doctrine out of it, When there are so MANY MANY MANY examples of the same healing performed with NO CONDITIONS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1.) I never said gathering wasn't a work, I said receiving a free gift is not a work.

2.) I asked you what you thought a work is for clarification because I was confused.

3.) We are arguing pro-grace. The way your reasoning seems as if you support both and oppose a work based faith which is confusing. Dude, listen to me. Please read your first post, and the one about asking the question about Naaman, they contradict what you're to say. You make it sound we have to make a payment on the free gift by continuing to do works, doing it that way means were renting it (or renting to own) and it's not ours. Jesus made the gift of salvation unconditional free to all, but accepting only means that you should have eternal life. Here's where the gray area clears up some: The works come from a living faith, meaning you do them because you want to change and you love God. If you do works because you feel that you have to do them to be saved (which it looks like your to advocate) You cheapen God's grace by trying to pay Him back or earn your salvation. This what I'm trying to say.

So let me get something else straight, you've literally done all of this?
Matthew 28:18-20Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

I already know you'll respond, because this isn't about setting the record straight (not anymore), this is about you not wanting to lose this debate, whether you want to admit it or not your letting your pride get in way. And of course you're going to deny it, but are to convince me, yourself, or God?

He does not understand that the manna was theirs whether they gathered it or not. The work was to BENEFIT from the thing which was already given to them for free. or not benefiting from it.

The gathering was not required to make it theirs, it was theirs the moment God gave it to them (before they even woke up)

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Jn 3:5------------believeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved
Lk 13:3,5---------repent>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not perish/saved

So Christ made repentance on par with believing in being saved. Since there is just only one way to be saved/not perish, then that must mean belief INCLUDES repentance. So all the "belief only" in the world will never save an impenitent person.

Lk 13:3,5. Mt 10:32,33 and Mk 16:16 are words/promises of Christ as much as Jn 3:16. So those that are saved per heb 5:9 are the ones that do as Christ says (Lk 6:46) in believing repenting confession and being baptized.

Why can't I just believe the promise of John 3:15? Because if I believe John 3:16, I have been given eternal life - all the rest [outside works] will follow and I would be baptized with Holy Spirit. All set!

 

[breno785au]

I think maybe the word 'conditions' in the title is not the right word, maybe 'receive' is better. God gives us gifts, anyone can give us gifts but if we don't receive it (take it) it's still ours but it hurts the giver.
And He doesn't give us gifts because we are so great, it's because of His love, mercy and kindness towards us.

 

[sparkman]

Would then John Wayne Gacy be saved? He surely didn't do "righteous" works.

In your Armstrongite theology, you claim that John Wayne Gacy will receive an opportunity for salvation after the Millennium, during the "Great White Throne Judgment", along with Adolf Hitler, correct?

Be honest in your reply.