When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

The phrase 'that day shall not come' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is referring back to the phrase 'day of Christ' in the previous verse. The 'Man of Sin' and 'Falling Away' are indicated to "occur" before the Second Coming of Christ - not before the start of the Great Tribulation.

So to be clear, you do NOT see the Man of Sin and the AoD as the same?????????

 

[PlainWord]

There is no place in the scriptures that indicates the [ exact ] length of the Great Tribulation ( as a whole, start-to-finish, beginning-to-end ).

I agree. There isn't.

 

[PlainWord]

So to be clear, you do NOT see the Man of Sin and the AoD as the same?????????

Sorry, didn't see you answered this already. Okay, so if the Man of Sin who sits in the temple declaring himself to be God is yet future then it really doesn't matter if he is the AoD or not because he will be just like the AoD and Christians should recognize him, assuming of course they aren't deceived by him.

So, in your mind we are at Mat 24:28 or so right now? Actually I guess you would have us in the Great Tribulation at the deception part, verse 22-26? I don't see how this is possible because you can't really say the days need to be shortened or no flesh would be saved. Unless of course you take this to be spiritual? I totally could agree with taking it spiritually NO FLESH WOULD BE SAVED sure does fit well with what Jesus said in Luke 18:8. It also would agree with Paul's comments in 2 Thes 2 that there would be a falling away - thus faith will be hard to find. If Babylon has altered true faith so much that there is hardly anything recognizable as true faith, this would certain fit.

Hmmm. Let me chew on this awhile...

 

[PlainWord]

Two more questions Gary,

Do you see the Great Tribulation as increased persecution against Israel or against Christians?

Do you see the Great Multitude in heaven as Christians or Jews or both? I assume you think it is 2000+ years worth of those who died for their faith?

I guess that is 3 questions.

 

[PlainWord]

Now isn't this interesting??? 6/9.5 = 63.2% which is awfully close to 2/3 having died. More in a moment...

Jewish Population of Europe in 1945Jewish Population of Europe in 1945

About six million Jews died in the Holocaust. Jewish communities across Europe were shattered. Many of those who survived were determined to leave Europe and start new lives in Israel or the United States. The population shifts brought on by the Holocaust and by Jewish emigration were astounding.

According to the American Jewish Yearbook, the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million in 1933. In 1950, the Jewish population of Europe was about 3.5 million. In 1933, 60 percent of all Jews lived in Europe. In 1950, most Jews (51 percent) lived in the Americas (North and South combined), while only a third of the world's Jewish population lived in Europe.

 

[watcher2013]

Ah, but do they all refer to AD 70?? The differences between Luke's account and Matthew and Mark's account are an often debated subject. It can be argued effectively both ways. The same can be said of some of Daniel. Is there one Abomination or are there two? Is Daniel 9 and Daniel 11 describing the same events? I used to think so, but now I am not so sure.

Christ specifically refers to the Abomination of Desolation in Mat 24 and Mark 13 but he does not use this term in Luke. Many people assume that Jesus was speaking of Daniel 9:27 but Daniel does not use the term there. Instead Daniel uses it in Dan 11:31 and 12:11.

There are many passages which discuss the "scattering into all the nations." Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Zechariah devote much time to this. There was a scattering after Babylon and after AD 70. But, there was only a partial return after Babylon (Ezra 1-2).

So does the return after Babylon count as a "Gathering from all Nations?" It's hard for me to see that. However, after AD 70, as we know, the Jews were literally scattered into all the nations for 1878 years and are still returning today. All tribes are coming back and they are "under one king" now with no more in fighting or enmity.

We know there will be one more gathering. Jesus gathers His Elect when He returns. We obviously see that from Mat 24 but also from Isaiah 11:

11 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. 12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

this response jumps from one topic to many...and I think it would be helpful if we can reconcile things;

Let start in Matthew 24:
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first two verses Jesus was clearly talking about the destruction of the temple.

verse 3 the disciples asked:
1. When shall these things be,
2. What shall be the signs of thy coming
3. and the end of the world...

What was Jesus response as to the first question? In matthew 24, what verse can you show me as to when these things (destruction of the temple) be?

 

[watcher2013]

I recognize many similarities of AD 70 to what Christ discussed. But I also consider the strong possibility of a dual fulfilment

a dual fulfilment would include:
destruction of temple
Desolation of the land of Israel - and scattering of the Jews...again

Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city on earth. Isaiah 17:1 calls for the complete desolation of Damascus which has not happened. In fact most of the Chapters in the teens of Isaiah I believe are future.

Can you please show the relation as to the destruction of Damascus to Matthew 24?

 

[watcher2013]

I know Gary. You, Elin and apparently Watcher all believe this. I understand your reasons and I respect them. I have to respectfully disagree with you guys for several reasons.

1) Jesus gives us a period called the "Beginning of Sorrows."

Here is a link that explain that all those things "wars,pestilence, famine" were happening prior to AD70.

although we can see here a prophetic events prior to the END...not specifically referring to the destruction of the temple..
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Jesus foretold that these things must come first but the end is not Yet...(we know that the destruction of the temple is not the end)

Then in Mat 24:14 He makes clear that the Gospel has to be preached into all the nations before the end comes and before He introduces the Abomination of Desolation. The Gospel was just starting out back then. It had NOT been preached to the world before the AD 70 Abomination.

Then the disciples failed Jesus:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

looking at Matthew 24:14
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The event after the preaching the gospel of the kingdom in all the world is for the end...

If you look from verse 8:
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

after discussing the beginning of Sorrows:

Jesus then from 9-14 talks about events up until the end....( addressing the 3rd questions in verse 3, "end of the world".

2) The remnant of AD 70 fled to Masada. They were all killed there in AD 73. None survived. The Days were not shortened for them. Nothing tells us they were the ELECT.

The Roman-Jewish war ended at Masada...(short war..if it had been prolonged they could have attacked even the elect)

3) There was no great deception during AD 70. Nobody was buying into the idea that Titus was their Messiah. Nobody was trying to get the Jews to "Go out and see the Christ."

many remained inside Jerusalem...despite Jesus foretold its Destruction and to flee...

4) The fleeing of AD 70 occurred on August 4, AD 70. That day was a Sabbath but it was not in Winter.

Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
two possible conditions:
winter or Sabbath:
Why...because of transportation...
Sabbath- they were not allowed to carry and to do work...
winter - we know difficulties in walking during winter....
Nowadays we have transportation like cars... (so even if it is winter, those who are giving sucks can travel far )

5) Armageddon was introduced in verse 28 which ties with Rev 19. While there was a slaughter and likely scavengers, the death toll from the initial Roman slaughter was only 3,600.

Verse 28 deals with the 2nd questions of the disciples in verse 3...signs of thy coming...

6) You had Cestilus Callus who sent 20,000 Roman troops down from Syria and the Jews slaughtered 6,000 of these solders causing Callus to retreat. Then Nero sent Vespasian to squash the rebellion. He succeeded in Galilee, the Jordan River Valley area and Idumea then encircled Jerusalem. At that time Nero died and a power struggle within Rome ensued. This is when Vespasian appointed his son, Titus, to take over. Over an extended period the Romans eventually battered down the temple walls and killed or captured the remaining defenders. While it can be effectively argued that Daniel 11 may have been fulfilled by Ptolemy I and Seleucus of Egypt who came after the Romans, nothing in Daniel 12 appears to have been fulfilled.

specify which verses of Daniel 12 you are referring: because Daniel 12 also talks of resurrection sealed until the time of the end (verse 1-9)
the rest of the verses talks about a period after the daily sacrifice was taken away and the abomination that maketh desolate set up.

7) We have not seen the appearance of the Man of Sin or the Falling Away as discussed by Paul. So either you tie the Man of Sin to Titus or you don't. I don't.

Titus was not the man of sin...evenif he was a sinful man.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I would say the opposite.
The Judgement of God upon the earth will come swiftly and without warning.
The rapture on the other hand has signs of its arrival.

Why would the Believers be taken by surprise, yet the unbelievers be given signs?
The Scripture teaches imminent judgement, not imminent rapture.

The thing is the unbelievers will not recognize those signs as the tribulation period, and the final great tribulation period of the last 3 1/2 years that contain Gods wrath in the bowl judgments.

Unbelievers will just think of it as every day life getting worse, and unruly governments getting out of control. They will make no connection to God. And why would they if they don't believe.

How many times do you even hear from believers; Oh this is not the escalation the bible speaks of because it has always been like this, it only seems that way because we have better news coverage now.

Or trying to say things like this has happened before, it is just how history repeats itself.

Even believers play off the signs as normal or give other excuses, so why would non-believers recognize the signs ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The disciples did not fail Jesus to spread the gospel to all the nations, for it is still taking place to this day.

The order of events:

Jesus taught the disciples ( Apostles ), and then they told them to go out to all the nations making more disciples, those disciples that were made were charged to go out to the other areas that have not been reached so far and make more disciples, and so on and so on.....

Getting to certain areas to preach the gospel is not as easy as put out. It takes time, resources, costing of multiple lives to get the word to that region, and so forth.... There is still a few remote areas in the world today that have not heard the gospel.

The charge to spread the gospel to all the nations was not given a time limit to be done in, so to act like the original 12 were to do it before they were killed or exiled is a false assumption.

 

[Elin]

I know Gary. You, Elin and apparently Watcher all believe this. I understand your reasons and I respect them. I have to respectfully disagree with you guys for several reasons.

But there are problems with your reasons,
both in the facts of the text, and in your interpretation of prophecy.

1) Jesus gives us a period called the "Beginning of Sorrows."

A good place for us to begin. . .problem #1.

The word "sorrows" in the Greek is odin, which means labor pain, birth pain,
and which corresponds with 1Th 5:2-3:

"for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.
While people are saying, 'Peace and safety,' destruction will come on them suddenly,
as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

So in Mt 24:8, Jesus is talking about the beginning of labor pains that will bring the day of the Lord
at the end of time.

Then in Mat 24:14 He makes clear that the Gospel has to be preached into all the nations before the end comes and before
He introduces the Abomination of Desolation.

In Mt 24:14, Jesus is referring to the day of the Lord at the end
of the NT church (ekklesia--Mt 16:18) age, the end of time.
In v. 15-22, he transitions to the end of the OT church (ekklesia--Ac 7:38) age,
the destruction of Jerusalem,
and then returns again to the end of the NT church age in vv. 23-33.

It is intertwined multi-level prophecy, as we see in much of OT prophecy.

The Gospel was just starting out back then. It
had NOT been preached to the world before the AD 70 Abomination.

You are confounding two prophecies.

The AD 70 Abomination in vv. 15-22 is the prophecy regarding the end of the OT church age
at the destruction of Jerusalem, it is not prophecy of the end of the NT church age
at the end of time. That prophecy is in vv. 4-14, 23-33.

2) The remnant of AD 70 fled to Masada. They were all killed there in AD 73.
None survived. The Days were not shortened for them.
Nothing tells us they were the ELECT.

Problem #2. . .
And nothing tells us that some of the believers were not caught in Jerusalem--the pregnant women, the nursing mothers, the elderly, etc.--because they could not flee.

3) There was no great deception during AD 70. Nobody was buying into the idea that Titus was their Messiah. Nobody was trying to get the Jews to "Go out and see the Christ."

Problem #3. . .confounding two prophecies again.

This assumes your interpretation of the prophetic riddle of Mt 24 is correct,
that Jesus is prophesying only the end of the NT church (ekklesia--Mt 16:18) age,
and that vv. 15-22 do not refer to the end of the OT church (ekklesia--Ac 7:38) age,
in the destruction of Jerusalem. But Jesus states that
the present generation will see these things, and Josephus, the Jewish historian
who was there, describes the destruction of Jerusalem in the terms of vv. 15-22.

4) The fleeing of AD 70 occurred on August 4, AD 70. That day was a Sabbath but
it was not in Winter.

Problem #4. . .

Jesus did not say it would occur in winter.

5) Armageddon was introduced in verse 28 which ties with Rev 19. While there was a slaughter and likely scavengers, the death toll from the initial Roman slaughter was only 3,600.

Yes, after transitioning in vv. 15-22 to the end of the OT church age, the end of Jerusalem,
Jesus then transitions back in vv. 23-33 to the end of the NT church age at the end of time.

6) You had Cestilus Callus who sent 20,000 Roman troops down from Syria and the Jews slaughtered 6,000 of these solders causing Callus to retreat. Then Nero sent Vespasian to squash the rebellion. He succeeded in Galilee, the Jordan River Valley area and Idumea then encircled Jerusalem. At that time Nero died and a power struggle within Rome ensued. This is when Vespasian appointed his son, Titus, to take over. Over an extended period the
Romans eventually battered down the temple walls and killed or captured the remaining defenders.
While it can be effectively argued that Daniel 11 may have been fulfilled by Ptolemy I and Seleucus of Egypt who came after the Romans,
nothing in Daniel 12 appears to have been fulfilled.

Yes, all private interpretation of prophetic riddles is uncertain.

7) We have not seen the appearance of the Man of Sin or the Falling Away as discussed by Paul. So either you tie the Man of Sin to Titus or you don't. I don't.

I recognize many similarities of AD 70 to what Christ discussed. But I also consider the strong possibility of a dual fulfillment. Damascus is the oldest continuously inhabited city on earth. Isaiah 17:1 calls for the complete desolation of Damascus which has not happened. In fact most of the Chapters in the teens of Isaiah I believe are future.

So you are saying the rapture at the end of time with the final judgment (2Th 1:7-10, 2:1, 8)
has not yet come. . .agreed.

As for the church age lasting 2,000+ years YES we agree. But
to say it is the Greatest Tribulation ever, I disagree.

Good, because in vv. 15-22, Jesus is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem,
the end of the OT church (ekklesia--Ac 7:38) age, when he makes that statement in v. 21,
he is not referring to the remaining NT church age.

I think the worst is yet to come and that we are still in the Beginnings of Sorrows.

So we are in the labor pains that mark the beginning of the end (1Th 5:2-3).

 

[Elin]

this response jumps from one topic to many...and I think it would be helpful if we can reconcile things;

Let start in Matthew 24:
Mat 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you,
There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first two verses Jesus was clearly talking about the destruction of the temple.

verse 3 the disciples asked:
1. When shall these things be,
2. What shall be the signs of thy coming
3. and the end of the world...

What was Jesus response as to the first question? In matthew 24,
what verse can you show me as to when these things (destruction of the temple) be?

During the destruction of Jerusalem--vv. 15-22, 34.

 

[PlainWord]

The rapture has no preceding prophecies therefore it cannot be predicted.

Except that we are told the resurrection happens on "the Last Day." So, all prophesies except the earth being dissolved must be completed, unless your rapture does not include a resurrection??

 

[PlainWord]

this response jumps from one topic to many...and I think it would be helpful if we can reconcile things;

Let start in Matthew 24:
Mat 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first two verses Jesus was clearly talking about the destruction of the temple.

verse 3 the disciples asked:
1. When shall these things be,
2. What shall be the signs of thy coming
3. and the end of the world...

What was Jesus response as to the first question? In matthew 24, what verse can you show me as to when these things (destruction of the temple) be?

Jesus does not say when the Temple will be destroyed, He just says it will be destroyed in Verse 2. You need to follow the progression. Jesus is at the temple in Mark 12 right until the end of the chapter:

35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much.

Then He leaves the temple at the start of Mark 13:

1 Then as He went out of the temple, oneof His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

Notice it was ONE of His disciplines who commented about the temple?

Then He is at the Mt. of Olives here in Mark 13:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Now we have 4 disciples who approach Jesus to continue the conversation. None of the 4 give this account which is odd. Instead it is Matthew, Mark and Luke who provide the account.

I've been to Jerusalem. Once you leave the Temple you walk north to the the Eastern Gate which leads to the Mt. of Olives through the Kidron Vally. Of course the Eastern Gate is sealed now but I would estimate it would have been a good 15-20 minute walk for Christ back then to get to the Mt. of Olives.

So now they are on the Mt. of Olives then Peter, James, John and Andrew continue the discussion and ask WHEN will these things happen. It is critical you keep in mind that they had just come from the Temple where Jesus was "schooling" the scribes and Pharisees. He was not only talking about the Temple. Look back to Mark 12 again:

24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?

25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

Jesus was discussing the resurrection just moments earlier. Like good disciples, they waited until they were alone to ask more about this topic. Matthew's account makes clear that the question posed to Christ by the 4 disciples was a bigger question than just the fate of the Temple.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

In fact, the question concerning the Temple had already been answered as to the fate, they wanted to know WHEN the Temple would be destroyed and then they wanted to know the SIGN of HIS coming and of the end of the AGE.

Luke breaks the account up in two places: Luke 17:22-37 and Luke 21. In none of the accounts does Jesus answer the question of WHEN. But He does give the SIGN and the SIGN is not concerning the temple. The SIGN deals with HIS Return.

So the real important question is when does Jesus switch from talking about the temple and AD 70 events to talking about the end times?

See this verse from Luke 21:22:

22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

DAYS OF VENGEANCE? ALL THINGS MAY BE FULFILLED? Are the Days of Vengeance the Days the Romans expelled the Jews and destroyed the temple????? I think NOT!! The days of vengeance occur when Christ returns. So where is the break in each passage??? Where is the switch in topics from temple to end times?

Let's go back to verse 9:

9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

Christ is talking about the end all the way back here!! There were no wars (plural) back then and certainly no rumors of wars. The first century was dominated by Rome.

10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

Nations were not rising up against Nations back then. Rome begins conquest of Britain in AD 43 and they put down the Jewish Rebellion in AD 67-73 but other than that it was pretty much Roman dominance of the world. Other nations were not battling each other. What are these great signs from heaven? Nothing I know of was recorded back then. Yes there were persecutions, famines and earthquakes back then. Bottom line is there is doubt that all things prior to Christ return have been fulfilled.

 

[PlainWord]

To me, there is a bigger unanswered question than when does Jesus transition away from the Temple to the end times. That bigger question is WHO was Jesus speaking of in the Olivet? Was it to Believing Jews, the Jewish Nation or the future Christian Church???

Are these related passages?

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If they are related then Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Nation and not the church and not the tribulation of the church but rather the tribulation of His Chosen Nation.

 

[Elin]

To me, there is a bigger unanswered question than when does Jesus transition away from the Temple to the end times. That bigger question is
WHO was Jesus speaking of in the Olivet?
Was it to Believing Jews, the Jewish Nation or the future Christian Church???

If you are asking who Jesus was speaking to, it is in 24:3-4.

If you are asking who Jesus is speaking of, it is of the two events referenced (v. 2, 3).

1) It is of the destruction of the Temple (v.2) in the destruction of Jerusalem (vv. 15-22),
which is the end of the OT church (ekklesia--Ac 7:38) age,
and which destruction Josephus describes in these very terms,
showing that Jesus was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem; and

2) it is of the end of the NT church age at his second coming at the end of time (vv. 3-14, 23-33).

Mt 24 is intertwined multi-level prophecy, as is seen in much OT prophecy.

Are these related passages?

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If they are related then Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Nation and not the church and not the tribulation of the church but rather the tribulation of His Chosen Nation.

Where are these passages from?

I don't do private interpretation of prophetic riddles, because it can only be uncertain.

Only Biblical interpretation of prophetic riddles, as in Da 2:36-45 or Rev 17:9-18, is certain.

 

[watcher2013]

Jesus does not say when the Temple will be destroyed, He just says it will be destroyed in Verse 2.

Jesus foretold its destruction...the disciples asked when....
Plain, it is not about who will win this argument its about reconciling the truth...
I can see on your response a desperate attempt to justify your argument in contrast with reality.

You need to follow the progression. Jesus is at the temple in Mark 12 right until the end of the chapter:

35 Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, "How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?

41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much.

Then He leaves the temple at the start of Mark 13:

1 Then as He went out of the temple, oneof His disciples said to Him, "Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

Notice it was ONE of His disciplines who commented about the temple?

Then He is at the Mt. of Olives here in Mark 13:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Can you now see your desperation...There is no question about how the conversation/event progressed...
The problem is you leaving out verse 2 of mark as they were leaving out of the temple:
Mar 13:2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
They were talking about the destruction of the temple...

Now we have 4 disciples who approach Jesus to continue the conversation. None of the 4 give this account which is odd. Instead it is Matthew, Mark and Luke who provide the account.

Would you still think its odd, If the Holy spirit guide those writer to write the conversation?

I've been to Jerusalem. Once you leave the Temple you walk north to the the Eastern Gate which leads to the Mt. of Olives through the Kidron Vally. Of course the Eastern Gate is sealed now but I would estimate it would have been a good 15-20 minute walk for Christ back then to get to the Mt. of Olives.

Your experience does not prove anything...The bible did not specify if they peed during their way to mt Olives.

So now they are on the Mt. of Olives then Peter, James, John and Andrew continue the discussion and ask WHEN will these things happen. It is critical you keep in mind that they had just come from the Temple where Jesus was "schooling" the scribes and Pharisees. He was not only talking about the Temple. Look back to Mark 12 again:

24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God?

25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

26 But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?

Jesus was discussing the resurrection just moments earlier. Like good disciples, they waited until they were alone to ask more about this topic. Matthew's account makes clear that the question posed to Christ by the 4 disciples was a bigger question than just the fate of the Temple.

Every issue in Mark 12, have discussed also in verse 12:
1. The Husbandman - verses 1-12
2. The tribute to Caesar verses 14-17
3. the issue of Resurrection - discussed and answered verses 18-27
4. which is the greatest commandment- verse 28-34
5. Jesus question about david's Lord - verses 35-37
6. the widow cast more - verses 41-44

as you can see...the resurrection was on the 3rd list of issues in Mark 12 but all of them were discussed and answered immediately as He was teaching.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

verse 3 was not referring about the widows casting more, nor which is the greatest commandment...
When these things be was referring to verse 2: which was the destruction of the buildings and the temple...
Mar 13:2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In fact, the question concerning the Temple had already been answered as to the fate, they wanted to know WHEN the Temple would be destroyed and then they wanted to know the SIGN of HIS coming and of the end of the AGE.

exactly, they wanted to know WHEN the temple would be destroyed...

So in Matthew 24, Mark 13...What signs did Jesus gave as to when it shall be destroyed?

Luke breaks the account up in two places: Luke 17:22-37 and Luke 21. In none of the accounts does Jesus answer the question of WHEN. But He does give the SIGN and the SIGN is not concerning the temple. The SIGN deals with HIS Return.

as has been shown to you...
Luke discussed the following
1. Destruction of the city including temple
2. Then desolation of the Land and the scattering of the people and
3. the throdding down of the city until the times of the Gentiles
4. Luke also discussed the signs of the coming of our Lord.

So the real important question is when does Jesus switch from talking about the temple and AD 70 events to talking about the end times?

See this verse from Luke 21:22:

22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

DAYS OF VENGEANCE? ALL THINGS MAY BE FULFILLED? Are the Days of Vengeance the Days the Romans expelled the Jews and destroyed the temple????? I think NOT!! The days of vengeance occur when Christ returns. So where is the break in each passage??? Where is the switch in topics from temple to end times?

the days of vengeance in luke was against the children of Israel for all their abominations..
Luk 21:23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
who's wrath it is..It is God's wrath against the children of Israel..

as shown in this video about the opening of the seals...

Let's go back to verse 9:

9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

Christ is talking about the end all the way back here!! There were no wars (plural) back then and certainly no rumors of wars. The first century was dominated by Rome.

10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

Nations were not rising up against Nations back then. Rome begins conquest of Britain in AD 43 and they put down the Jewish Rebellion in AD 67-73 but other than that it was pretty much Roman dominance of the world. Other nations were not battling each other. What are these great signs from heaven? Nothing I know of was recorded back then. Yes there were persecutions, famines and earthquakes back then. Bottom line is there is doubt that all things prior to Christ return have been fulfilled.

see Roman-Parthian war / kingdom of Armenia, plus as you have written it the Jewish Roman war...

 

[watcher2013]

To me, there is a bigger unanswered question than when does Jesus transition away from the Temple to the end times. That bigger question is WHO was Jesus speaking of in the Olivet? Was it to Believing Jews, the Jewish Nation or the future Christian Church???

Don't you have no Idea:

1. They were talking about the destruction of Temple - (totally Jewish)
2. They were talking of Sabbath - (Jewish)
3. They were talking of Daniel - Jewish writing
4. They were talking of Messiah/Christ - totally Jewish
5. Hated of All nations...what nation? -The nation of Israel
6. They were talking of Judea - Nation of Israel

about the gospel:Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Pertains to ALL nations:

about the elect:
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
from one END of heaven to the OTHER...

Are these related passages?

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If they are related then Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Nation and not the church and not the tribulation of the church but rather the tribulation of His Chosen Nation.

It maybe related...
The siege of Jerusalem is the great tribulation....The father eat their sons...many were slaughtered...but still there were remnants...
and it was talking about the Nation of Israel...

 

[Elin]

Jesus does not say when the Temple will be destroyed,
He just says it will be destroyed in Verse 2.

Was it destroyed in the destruction of Jerusalem?

That then is the answer to your question.

Notice it was ONE of His disciplines who commented about the temple?

Then He is at the Mt. of Olives here in Mark 13:

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,

Now we have 4 disciples who approach Jesus to continue the conversation.
None of the 4 give this account which is odd.

These facts are irrelevant to the point.

That only one asked the first question, or that only four asked the second question,
does not mean all 12 were not there.

Peter, James and Andrew did not write gospels.
Why do you say it is odd that they gave no account?

And John did not give many accounts the others gave,
and he also gave many accounts that no one else gave.

So the real important question is when does Jesus switch from talking about the temple and AD 70 events to talking about the end times?

See this verse from Luke 21:22:

22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

DAYS OF VENGEANCE? ALL THINGS MAY BE FULFILLED? Are the Days of Vengeance the Days the Romans expelled the Jews and destroyed the temple????? I think NOT!! The days of vengeance occur when Christ returns. So where is the break in each passage???
Where is the switch in topics from temple to end times?

The discourse in Lk is in three parts, just as it is in Mt and Mk:

Vv. 8-19 refer to end times,
Vv. 20-24 switch to Temple,
Vv. 25-28 switch back to end times.

Why is this so hard for you to see, particularly in light of the fact that Josephus,
the Jewish historian who was there, said that at the destruction of Jerusalem
it all happened exactly as described in vv. 20-24?

 

[PlainWord]

Elin,

2) it is of the end of the NT church age at his second coming at the end of time (vv. 3-14, 23-33).

This is conjecture. There was no NT church in place at the time of Jesus uttering this. The NT church concept was only introduced at this time. Could He have been speaking of the fate facing the disciples? John was not martyred. Could He have been discussing the future church? Possibly. Could He have been discussing Israel? Possibly and I'd argue, more likely.

As for vs 23-33 we need to define the ELECT. Are they a chosen, select group like the 144K? Are they all NT Saints? Are they ALL SAINTS? Are they the remaining Jews. I am not aware of any passage that clearly defines them. There is an OT passage that defines Israel as the ELECT. I will try to find it again.

I am leaning towards Jesus having been discussing the fate of Israel and not the Gentile believers/Future church. Jesus usually identifies the Gentiles when He is discussing them. The temple was Jewish as were His disciples. Jerusalem is front and center in the conversation so I would lean towards Israel.

Where are these passages from?

Dan 12:1 and Mat 24.