Losing your salvation

[Thaddaeus]

I’m just trying to make the point that I’ve never heard it said in my church that “once saved, always saved,” and that “once saved, always saved,” doesn’t make sense to me.

so you are saying that the Bible lies :

Jude 1:20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Jude 1:21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.Jude 1:22And of some have compassion, making a difference:Jude 1:23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,Jude 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[wattie]

Context: having our needs met and being content with what we have. OSAS makes God a liar when He says if we deny Him He will deny us.


As before.. deny doesn't mean cast into hell.. it is denying rewards.. witholding blessings... in the same passage as deny Him .. He will deny us.. is if we believe not He abideth faithful.



No non-OSAS believer I know, doesn't believe they have eternal life.

What I am saying is that.. when Jesus gives us eternal life.. it means just that.. eternal.. everlasting.. if it isn't.. then He is lieing.


We're not eternal yet until we are glorified like Christ's body. If you are eternal now, you wouldn't be able to die once. If we lose hold of Christ, who is our life, then we don't have life no longer.

Eternal life.. as in our soul has been indwelled by the Holy Spirit and is now eternally secure in Christ.. right from the moment of salvation.




Not relevant to this topic, this is not a faith vs works debate. Jesus's death on the cross, does not mean everyone is automatically saved without faith. Jesus's blood cleanses us from sin. Jesus didn't die on the cross to force us or make us to believe.

That is true.. what I mean is if salvation can be lossed.. it isn't fully effectual for those who do believe in Him.. it isn't enough because part of it depends on us.. He hasn't done enough.


OSAS says that we have no part in our salvation, which is not true. It's a two-way relationship, not one-way.

Asking for salvation is the only part we need to play..

there is a difference between saving faith and daily faith.. saving faith is asking for salvation.. and daily faith is seeking after Jesus.. one is not dependent on the other.

Faith without works is dead.. isn't about eternal salvation but THE faith.. daily faith.. about seeing an opporuntity to serve and not taking it... meaning daily faith is useless without serving Jesus.

 

[MahogonySnail]

It is vital to know the difference between positional truth and experiential truth. Positional truth is what God does to the sinner the moment He saves him by grace. There are some (65) things that God does to and for the believer that are irreversible and immutable. These things are imputed to the believer and represent his standing before God but not his experience. The sinner was born again and God made him a new creature in Christ. Positional truth is what God does and what He sees that has been imputed to the believing sinner that He has redeemed. The believing sinner has been saved and redeemed by grace, but has not learned to appreciate the truth of it in his experience.

The problem is that you think it is ok for positional and experiential truth to be 180 degree opposites. No way, positional truth leads to experiential truth. If you are positionally saved, you will also be experientially saved. Your comment about a person being saved despite being dead is completely wrong and like saying you can be good and evil at the same time, no way hosea.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Asking for salvation is the only part we need to play..

there is a difference between saving faith and daily faith.. saving faith is asking for salvation.. and daily faith is seeking after Jesus.. one is not dependent on the other.

Faith without works is dead.. isn't about eternal salvation but THE faith.. daily faith.. about seeing an opporuntity to serve and not taking it... meaning daily faith is useless without serving Jesus

The bible doesn't really distinguish between saving faith and daily faith. They are the same thing. This idea that there are different types or one is different to the other, or you can have saving faith without daily faith is a doctrine of man IMO.

 

[greatkraw]

But people will tell you that if you don’t do this or don’t do that, you will burn in hell forever. Why, then, are some people saved and others not?

The answer to that question is easy.

The ones that are saved are the ones that depend TOTALLY on the work of Christ.

The others are the ones that feel they need to contribute to a greater or lesser extent by their own efforts.


NO ONE WILL BE IN HELL BECAUSE OF THEIR SINS!!!

Jesus Christ really did die for the sins of the whole world.

I will be in heaven because I am trusting 110% in CHRIST'S righteousness alone.

 

[MahogonySnail]

NO ONE WILL BE IN HELL BECAUSE OF THEIR SINS!!!

no one at all?

 

[greatkraw]

no one at all?

Not becuase of their sins; but because of their(inferior) righteousness.

They will be judged because their (human good) works are evil(ie human good as opposed to divine good)

Thank you for the question, Snail.

 

[watchmen]

Originally Posted by Elijah23

I’m just trying to make the point that I’ve never heard it said in my church that “once saved, always saved,” and that “once saved, always saved,” doesn’t make sense to me.

so you are saying that the Bible lies :

No Thaddaeus it is you that says the Bible lies.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[watchmen]

so you are saying that the Bible lies :

Jude 1:20But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,Jude 1:21Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.Jude 1:22And of some have compassion, making a difference:Jude 1:23And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,Jude 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.

The crazy thing is you use this verse to teach OSAS which is false, but refuse to believe what iot does mean which is God can perfect us.

 

[jjkg]

Couple of questions.

1. How did God save you, was it by grace through faith in the work of Christ on the cross or was it some other way?

2. How did all of your sins get forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ?

3. Did God give you His gift of righteousness, His gift of the Holy Spirit and His gift of eternal life when you believed or are you still waiting for these things to happen?

4. Did God regenerate you through mercy when you believed upon Christ and if He did explain how that can be forfeited?

5. How do you know and what is the proof that you can provide right now, that you are saved?

6. If you are not saved or don't know if you are for sure or believe that it is possible to lose it, why in the world would I want to listen to anything you have to say about it?

7. If you live to be 80 years old how do you know that you will be just as saved then as you were when you first believed?

8. Are you going to be anymore cleansed and forgiven of sin at 80 years than when you were saved?

9. Will the cross of Christ have the same message for you at 80 years as it did when you first heard the gospel?

10. Do you know that a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways / James 1:8?

MAN, that's a lot of questions!!!

Shad, I have just one for you....what are your thoughts on that verse in 1 Timothy 4:1?

 

[MahogonySnail]

Not becuase of their sins; but because of their(inferior) righteousness.

It sounds a bit contradictory to me because I think 1 John teaches that practicing sin is what unrighteousness is. Inferior righteouness is another way to say a person is a sinner.

 

[STEPHAN]

you can not loose your salvation unless you reject your Holy Spirit

 

[STEPHAN]

My Gift to you "I Love You"
try not to loose it?

 

[shad]

MAN, that's a lot of questions!!!

Shad, I have just one for you....what are your thoughts on that verse in 1 Timothy 4:1?

I thought you were up for the task. Are they too difficult to answer? If you answer all (10) then I will answer what you have asked me, including verse (2). I will answer it just the way it was intended to be understood, sparing nothing and no one from its meaning and application to every member of God's body. The answer will not be on some lower level expectation by on the highest level because of the urgency that it represents in the church which is approximately (2000) years closer to what is represented in the 'latter times'. I am up for the task are you? As you answer those questions don't forget what we are discussing on this thread. When you read my answer to your question, don't be introspective and begin to live in self analysis, but live in the truth by faith and confess to God by the same faith that, 'It's not going to be me'. You go first!

 

[greatkraw]

It sounds a bit contradictory to me because I think 1 John teaches that practicing sin is what unrighteousness is. Inferior righteouness is another way to say a person is a sinner.

I am not talking about UNrighteousness but man's righteousness(ie good deeds).

It is perfectly possible to do a good work in one's own strength. It is not a sin. But it is repugnant to God and carries no sway with him(he describes this as evil).

Christians will have their GOOD WORKS judged at the Bema Seat of Christ(between the Rapture and the Glorious Appearing at the end of the Tribulation)
They will be judged according to MOTIVE. This will determine their rewards.

Unbelievers will have their GOOD WORKS judged at the great white Throne Judgement to see if they have earned enough righteousness to get into heaven. No one will have. The good news is that their sins are forgiven. The bad news is that only Christ's righteousness holds any sway with God.

I will be getting into heaven on the strength of Christ's righteousness, not my own.

 

[Thaddaeus]

No Thaddaeus it is you that says the Bible lies.
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

cut off does not mean hell, to die , is not always a spiritual death . so what do you do with this then

1co 5:5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
they were cut off from their service they are not able to obey the flesh has been destoried but the Spirit may be saved, now many inhere may have a problem with their Loving God to turnn anyone over to satan But this is scpriture, but the spirit may be saved, now let me transalate , God will turn you over to satan for the destruction of the Flesh , that the spirit may be saved before He will let you walk away from His Grace

 

[Ash_JFF]

We shouldn't defile it every day, no way. How can someone who claims to be a Christian say such a thing.

I mean defile as sinning. Everyone sins: you and me both. There is not a day that I do not sin. I am not proud of it but it is the truth. However, that is not to say that I sin just because I want to though I sometimes do that - then I feel really guilty and ask God for forgiveness. I try not to sin because even though I know I can't lose my salvation I want to honor God, have a closer relationship with him and please him and know one can please God without obeying him.

 

[superdave5221]

Matthew 10: 1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

At this point in time Judas Iscariot was saved. Saved to the point of being able to preach with authority, heal diseases, raise people from the dead, and perform miracles.

Once saved always saved? Am I to believe that we will see Judas Iscariot in heaven? You might want to rethink your doctrine.

 

[Ash_JFF]

Context: having our needs met and being content with what we have. OSAS makes God a liar when He says if we deny Him He will deny us.






No non-OSAS believer I know, doesn't believe they have eternal life.




We're not eternal yet until we are glorified like Christ's body. If you are eternal now, you wouldn't be able to die once. If we lose hold of Christ, who is our life, then we don't have life no longer.




Not relevant to this topic, this is not a faith vs works debate. Jesus's death on the cross, does not mean everyone is automatically saved without faith. Jesus's blood cleanses us from sin. Jesus didn't die on the cross to force us or make us to believe.




OSAS says that we have no part in our salvation, which is not true. It's a two-way relationship, not one-way.

You are putting it out of context: if we deny Christ (never received his salvation) of course he is going to deny us.

We do have eternal life. Yes we will die but we can be confident of eternal life after because of the blood of Jesus. Example: a death row inmate was going to be executed in two days but was given a pardon just in time. He has to wait a few hours for the paperwork to get organized before he gets out of jail. He can be confident that he his not going to die in two day but instead going to be set free.
Same with Christians. We will die, if the rapture doesn't happen first, but we can be confident of eternal life afterward based on what Jesus did on the cross.

He is not saying that everyone is automatically saved. Only those who accepts Jesus salvation will be saved. He is saying that what you believe makes God's salvation insufficient to justify and cleanse all your sins if you are just going to ask to get saved over and over again. You do not trust Jesus that he got sin dealt with the first time. What you believe is to have Jesus die over and over again.

 

[pickles]

Matthew 10: 1 He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.' 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.

At this point in time Judas Iscariot was saved. Saved to the point of being able to preach with authority, heal diseases, raise people from the dead, and perform miracles.

Once saved always saved? Am I to believe that we will see Judas Iscariot in heaven? You might want to rethink your doctrine.

But didnt Jesus say that none were lost except the one that was lost since the beginning of the world? Makes you wonder under whos athority Judus was under?