Trinity?

[ChristIsGod]

Who's In us? Who was in the Garden with Adam? Which of the Three weren't there? Who's in us?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,
if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

"None of" Who's?

I love this topic - when it stays friendly.

This next verse goes along with the one above ...

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


And again, WHO's in us?

 

[Bowman]

according to you this scripture would mean....God the Father is the father of God the father ....father of God the son ...father of God the spirit

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

No, only you would make this mistake...because you don't ever look at context.

You are too busy looking for a one-liner that you can pluck out of context....so that it can be squeezed into your jaded worldview...

this is what the scripture says...
Malachi 2:10

Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Already comprehended by The Trinity.

The scriptures that you keep ignoring are the ones that state that The Son is the true God.

Deal with ALL scripture....not a few cherry-picked ones...

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Already dealt with this one.

Jesus is the One God.

 

[EbalT5]

Yes, I've been taught and believe God the father, Jesus the son (that gave his life for the sins of the world), and the Holy Spirit that lives on the inside of us (leads and guides us in all truth and righteousness). Blessed Trinity!




I believe in the Trinity!
I write about it!

But can you have Faith in the Holy Spirit?

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

""He will guide you into all the truth"" That's not true. Christian sects, cults, and denominations all have varied versions of what is true or not.

""He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak""" We have to wonder who is telling the Holy Spirit what to say????
I wonder who tells the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit is God???

""He will disclose to you what is to come"" That's not true. There are many Christian versions of the future and what will happen in the last days.

 

[ChristIsGod]

ebal -- http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-61.html#post1827024

 

[EbalT5]

Is Jesus a person ?

That's an ambiguous question.
The Trinitarians believe God is threee persons.
But I understand a person to be a human being.
I wonder if God is ever called a person in the Bible?

To answer the question I think you asked...I believe Jesus was a man and not a God.

 

[Bowman]

Of course He was before John the Baptist. "Before Abraham was, I Am." Who is I AM in the O.T.?

Exo 3.14


And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.


Why is 'I AM' repeated three times in that verse...?

I think that answers your question. How many Gods did Israel have in the O.T.?

One Triune God.

Did they consider that I AM - the Father? or per chance the everlasting father, when they read Isaiah 9:6? Do we have a different God then is in the Old Testament? When did He change His essence?

Observe...
For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9.6)


His 'name' is called....NOT that He 'is' The Father.

You already acknowledged that they have the same name.....now you need to comprehend that while having the same name, that they are NOT each other!!!

 

[ChristIsGod]

The three "persons" didn't come from The Word of God but from the latter Early Church Fathers.

That's what's going wrong with this thread. Thanks for noticing!

 

[Bowman]

What did Jesus say to Philip -- was He playing games with Philip's head here or just word games?

Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

And Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us. Jesus said to him, Am I so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip? The one seeing Me has seen the Father! And how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The Words which I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me, He does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe Me because of the works themselves. Indeed, I tell you truly, the one believing into Me, the works which I do, that one shall do also, and greater than these he will do, becauseI go to My Father.(John 14.8 – 12)




Clearly, context comes to the rescue of the ignorant, as it declares that ‘abiding’ (menōn) has absolutely nothing to do with two persons being the same.The six other NT locations for ‘menōn’ plainly demonstrate that it was intended to be rendered as influence.


Further, if The Father and The Son were already each other, then there would be no need to ‘go to’ The Father…


Simple Biblical truth which I already explained to you prior...and you ignored it...

Let's see what you do this time...

 

[EbalT5]

This next verse goes along with the one above ...

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


And again, WHO's in us?

Isn't Jesus up in heaven with God?
Nothing in that Scripture means that Jesus is God.

 

[EbalT5]

Observe...
For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9.6)


His 'name' is called....NOT that He 'is' The Father.

You already acknowledged that they have the same name.....now you need to comprehend that while having the same name, that they are NOT each other!!!

The JPS Tanakh, Isaiah 9:5 says " For a child
HAS BEEN born to us" and it is understood to
refer to King Hezekiah the son who succeeded
King Ahaz, his father.( 2Chron 28:27)( see also
Isaiah chapters 7&8 for background)

 

[Bowman]

Earlier in this thread - you kept stressing the word "gods" because of Elohim. I think you went on overkill on that and that threw more than just me. I know that Elohim can be plural but the three gods thing was hard for some to see over and over again.

The Hebrew word is 'haelohim'.....NOT 'elohim'....a subtle difference which I would not expect the casual indifferent individual, like yourself, to catch....but, most assuredly should, if a serious student of scripture...

When did the Father become the Father of The Word of God?

The Second Person of The Trinity is not referred to as The Son until NT times, even though He was manifest as a man in OT times...

You only gave me John the Baptist and not the O.T.

John references the OT non-stop.

Where have you been...?

as I kept asking you and only because you keep asking me for Scripture that I've already given you in abundance.

Gonna play that 'scripture' sympathy card yet again, sister...?

 

[ChristIsGod]

Exo 3.14


And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM; and He said, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you.

Why is 'I AM' repeated three times in that verse...? [/QUOTE]

Whenever God wants to 'stress' something, He'll repeat three or more times. The way you make it sound, is that first God the Father is saying "I AM" and then The Word of God is saying "I AM" and then the Holy Spirit [otherwise known as the Spirit of God & of Christ] is saying "I AM".

Again, if Jesus quoted the Shema, saying that it is the first commandment, then that's what HE wants us to Know.

One Triune God.

Never questioned His Triune Godhead but you keep on and on with things we've already established.

Observe...

For a Child is born; to us a Son is given; and the government is on His shoulder; and His name is called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.(Isa 9.6)


His 'name' is called....NOT that He 'is' The Father.

You already acknowledged that they have the same name.....now you need to comprehend that while having the same name, that they are NOT each other!!!

They are as One as you are body, soul and spirit - tripartite and like it or not, created in the image of God - tripartite.
Your soul is not another person, your spirit is not another person, your body isn't another person --- but the three are One Person and that's what Jesus was telling Philip and telling through quoting the Shema.

We're just repeating ourselves now. I think I've not gotten the answers from the O.T. that I asked for about when The Word of God became The Son and we're covering the same Scriptures over and over again.

Israel only knew One Father - One God - they did know HIS Spirit but that didn't make HIS Spirit another God -- no more than your spirit is another 'person'.

Topic exhausted. Believe the latter ECFs and I'll believe what I believe.

 

[Bowman]

The three "persons" didn't come from The Word of God but from the latter Early Church Fathers.

That's what's going wrong with this thread. Thanks for noticing!

Wrong.

Its right here, in scripture....you ran from it before....no doubt you have on your Nikes right now...


πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

 

[EbalT5]

Proof Jesus is Not God.

John 17:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

So as we can see, Jesus was GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracles, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracles. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

John 7:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 8:26New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”

John 14:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Again a Repeat Post that we already covered two pages ago .... "the Name" is Singular in that verse and when I posted this two pages ago, you didn't reply.


Time's up.

 

[Bowman]

The JPS Tanakh, Isaiah 9:5 says " For a child
HAS BEEN born to us" and it is understood to
refer to King Hezekiah the son who succeeded
King Ahaz, his father.( 2Chron 28:27)( see also
Isaiah chapters 7&8 for background)

Post the whole Hebrew verse for us...

 

[ChristIsGod]

Proof Jesus is Not God.

John 17:6-8 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

So as we can see, Jesus was GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracles, doctrine etc. Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle by his own power, he was given the miracles. He never taught anything of his own, rather he was taught by God and spoke what God told him to speak.

John 7:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)
So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 8:26New American Standard Bible (NASB)
I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”

John 14:24New American Standard Bible (NASB)
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

So everything Jesus had was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. God needs no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

Ebal - you're in serious trouble with this post -- Scripturally.

 

[EbalT5]

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


Again a Repeat Post that we already covered two pages ago .... "the Name" is Singular in that verse and when I posted this two pages ago, you didn't reply.


Time's up.

Eusebius 4th Century Church Historian Proves Matthew 28:19 is Spurious.
The 4th Century Church Historian wrote a famous book called ""THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL"'

In 7 places Eusebius quotes Matthew 28:19 and NEVER includes the Trinitarian formula The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

(1) Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

(2) Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152

(3) Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159

(4) Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175

(5) Book I, Chapter 3, 6 (a), p. 20

(6) Book I, Chapter 5, 9 (a), p. 24

(7) Book I, Chapter 6, 24 (c), p. 42

This is proof that sometime after the 4th century the gospels were being edited.

When the Roman Catholic Church was "keeper" of the NT Scriptures the Monks were monkeying with the text.

 

[EbalT5]

Post the whole Hebrew verse for us...

I don't have the JPS on line. So I'm not going to type the whole thing.

 

[Bowman]

Whenever God wants to 'stress' something, He'll repeat three or more times.

That would be true for twice - but NOT three times.

Three times signifies Three Persons in view....just like in Gen 1 where mankind is created 'bara', 'bara', bara', three times - representing the Triune Creator.

The way you make it sound, is that first God the Father is saying "I AM" and then The Word of God is saying "I AM" and then the Holy Spirit [otherwise known as the Spirit of God & of Christ] is saying "I AM".

The Holy Spirit is a separate Person...hence, your confusion.

Again, if Jesus quoted the Shema, saying that it is the first commandment, then that's what HE wants us to Know.

The Shema IS Triune to begin with!