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The "righteousness imputed to all men" part.
How/when do all people gain a state of righteousness?
The how is by Grace through Faith.
The when is upon believing.
The imputation is not general or universal, but specific and personal.
The availability is universal, but the end result is predestined.
No one is righteous except Christ. We are not considered righteous on our own account, but only because we are made one with Christ.
This leaves no excuse for sin. He has given us power to overcome, through the Spirit,
and a new heart which loves, because He first loved us.
How/when do all people gain a state of righteousness?
The how is by Grace through Faith.
The when is upon believing.
The imputation is not general or universal, but specific and personal.
The availability is universal, but the end result is predestined.
No one is righteous except Christ. We are not considered righteous on our own account, but only because we are made one with Christ.
This leaves no excuse for sin. He has given us power to overcome, through the Spirit,
and a new heart which loves, because He first loved us.
Sophia,
The moment Christ arose from the dead. Christ's work of redemmption, atonement was completed. The world was put back into a correct relationship with God.
The atonement is all grace, nothing of man or faith. Man becomes justified to God by faith. Scripture says that a person must believe who God is and that Christ saved us from death and sin. By so believing we are reconciled to God. Or, put personally into a correct relationship with God.
Depends on whom it is being done. If Christ, by His atonement it is universal, to all men and the world.
If it is man's response, by faith it is personal and specific.
yes and no. The sacrifice can be said to be available to all, but Christ only uses it to forgive sins when believers repent or confess their sin.
On the other hand life is imposed. I read nothing in scripture that says a person can choose whether he will be resurrected in the last day.
You are correct. We as individuals become righteous respective of we doing righteousness. It is imparted to us to become our own. I John 3:7.
Agreed. But there is no guarnatees that we do this. Scripture spends a lot of space exhorting believers to be ever vigilant, on guard to make sure they remain in faith.
The moment Christ arose from the dead. Christ's work of redemmption, atonement was completed. The world was put back into a correct relationship with God.
The atonement is all grace, nothing of man or faith. Man becomes justified to God by faith. Scripture says that a person must believe who God is and that Christ saved us from death and sin. By so believing we are reconciled to God. Or, put personally into a correct relationship with God.
Depends on whom it is being done. If Christ, by His atonement it is universal, to all men and the world.
If it is man's response, by faith it is personal and specific.
yes and no. The sacrifice can be said to be available to all, but Christ only uses it to forgive sins when believers repent or confess their sin.
On the other hand life is imposed. I read nothing in scripture that says a person can choose whether he will be resurrected in the last day.
You are correct. We as individuals become righteous respective of we doing righteousness. It is imparted to us to become our own. I John 3:7.
Agreed. But there is no guarnatees that we do this. Scripture spends a lot of space exhorting believers to be ever vigilant, on guard to make sure they remain in faith.
You still have not addressed, or given the meaning--being true to their words and context--of
Jn 6:37-40 - God having chosen some to be his sheep/children, whom he has given to Christ,
none of whom Christ shall lose, and all of whom he gives eternal life and raises at the last day;
Jn 10:27-29, 11:51-52; Ro 8:28-39; Eph 1:3-14; 1Pe 1:20 - whom before the creation of the
word, God chose and predestined to be his adopted sons according to the purpose of his will and
for the praise of his glory, marking them in Christ with the seal of the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit
guaranteeing their inheritance; for whom he chose and sent Christ to save them;
Jn 10:14-18, 27-29 - for which particular groups of sinners, not all sinners,
Ro 5:8-10, 8:32 - but all the elect sinners,
Gal 2:20, 3:13-14, 4:4-5; 1Jn 4:9-10; Rev 1:4-6, 5:9-10 - Christ laid down his life to purchase men for God from every tribe, language, people and nation;
Jn 17:9, 20 - and prayed only for them, specifically excluding "the world" (the rest of mankind) in his High Priestly prayer (Jn 17:1-26) immediately before his sacrifice of atonement
(it is unconscionable that he would specifically exclude any for whom he intended to die);
Jn 6:35, 47-51, 54-57; Ro 1:16, 10:8-13 - and promising all who come to Christ in faith will find mercy.
Jn 6:37-40 - God having chosen some to be his sheep/children, whom he has given to Christ,
none of whom Christ shall lose, and all of whom he gives eternal life and raises at the last day;
Jn 10:27-29, 11:51-52; Ro 8:28-39; Eph 1:3-14; 1Pe 1:20 - whom before the creation of the
word, God chose and predestined to be his adopted sons according to the purpose of his will and
for the praise of his glory, marking them in Christ with the seal of the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit
guaranteeing their inheritance; for whom he chose and sent Christ to save them;
Jn 10:14-18, 27-29 - for which particular groups of sinners, not all sinners,
Ro 5:8-10, 8:32 - but all the elect sinners,
Gal 2:20, 3:13-14, 4:4-5; 1Jn 4:9-10; Rev 1:4-6, 5:9-10 - Christ laid down his life to purchase men for God from every tribe, language, people and nation;
Jn 17:9, 20 - and prayed only for them, specifically excluding "the world" (the rest of mankind) in his High Priestly prayer (Jn 17:1-26) immediately before his sacrifice of atonement
(it is unconscionable that he would specifically exclude any for whom he intended to die);
Jn 6:35, 47-51, 54-57; Ro 1:16, 10:8-13 - and promising all who come to Christ in faith will find mercy.
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Let us think upon that moment, at Christ's Resurrection, when the world was put back in a correct relationship with God. We remain in a fallen world. How long did the world remain in correct relationship with God? A day? An hour? A minute? It's not in a correct relationship today, so did Christ fail? Or is your version of atonement out of line?
The Restoration is the "atonement" that you speak of. It is coming, not past.
When the "Millenium" comes, it will be fulfilled. The Enemy is still prowling about, looking for those to devour. Soon he will be bound.
Until the world system is destroyed, the world is not in a "correct relationship with God".
The Restoration is the "atonement" that you speak of. It is coming, not past.
When the "Millenium" comes, it will be fulfilled. The Enemy is still prowling about, looking for those to devour. Soon he will be bound.
Until the world system is destroyed, the world is not in a "correct relationship with God".
Elin,
Vs 39 is the atonement. It is universal. All things were given to Christ. Col 1:20. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says only some things were given to Christ. All men will be raised in the last day. The pronoun "it" is actually refering to our human nature.
Why was it necessary that Christ defeat death and sin? The next verse (40) tells us. So that those that see and believe will be raised to everylasting life. Huge difference.
God did not chose who would believe. Those that love Him, He predestined that they would be made holy, blameless, and conformed to His Image. He chose the elect, which is His Church, to be the recipients of those benefits. Not a single statement that He predestined any to eternal life. That is pure false Calvinism.
You keep forgetting that Christ needed to save the world before He could have any elect. You want the result or purpose without the event that makes it possible.
simple fact, John 10:11 is addressing THE sheep. You cannot have His Sheep unless and untill death and sin are defeated. That is the work of Christ, atonement, His gift to the world. 27-29 is the typical proof text for OSAS. The trouble the rest of scripture shows that man does not have any guarantees of his faith. But the point, it has nothing to do with the atonement. It is the purpose of the atonement.
already explained this as well. It just does not fit your Calvinistic theories. Vs 6-10 is all about mankind. It aligns with Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. And again, the purpose of His atonment, so that man can live IN Christ, being saved by His life.
Which does not refute that Christ first needed to defeat death and sin, so that He could call all men to repentance. It would be quite engenuous if God states He is calling all men to repentance, but not a single person could be inherit eternal life even if they responded, since Christ, in your view, did not defeat death and sin for everyone.
Gal 2:20 is speaking about baptism. It has nothing to do with the atonement.
3:13-14 is saying the same thing. Christ by His atonement made ONE man, Eph 2:16 both Jew and Gentile,in other words all men. And the benefits, namely receiving of the Spirit through faith. As I stated before if faith is the active word, it cannot be addressing the atonement. It is addressing the purpose of the atonement.
Gal 4:4-5 is very specific in that Christ redeemed all since all were under the law. No limitation here.
Same with I John 4:9-10, it is universal, not limited.
Rev 1:4-6 is procliaming Christ's sovereignty. Christ is the first born from the dead. It is addressing the atonement. The next verse 6 is addressing believers who are joined to Christ by baptism.
Rev 5:9-10 is a doxology to the Lamb who has inaugerated as new Age, the Messianic Age. again it is not specifically describing the atonement, though does refer to it.
I have already explained this one which does not address atonement and is not a proof text for limited atonement either
His High Priestly Prayer has four parts, vs1-5 He is praying for Himself, vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples, vs20-23 He is praying for His Church, and vs24-26 is all others or the world.
Which is the whole purpose of God creating man in the first place, then Christ redeeming man and the world from death and sin, so that the Holy Spirit can call all men to repentance. Those that see, hear, and believe shall inherit eternal life. Again, not addressing the atonement but the purpose of the atonement.
Now where is there any text that says Christ did not atone for sin, but only some sin?
Where is the text that says Christ did not defeat death, that there will be no resurection? Christ is the firstborn of the dead, not the firstborn of dead believers.
Explain to me where the limitation is in Heb 2:9 and I John 2:2? Or even in the equation of I Cor 15:22?
Vs 39 is the atonement. It is universal. All things were given to Christ. Col 1:20. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says only some things were given to Christ. All men will be raised in the last day. The pronoun "it" is actually refering to our human nature.
Why was it necessary that Christ defeat death and sin? The next verse (40) tells us. So that those that see and believe will be raised to everylasting life. Huge difference.
God did not chose who would believe. Those that love Him, He predestined that they would be made holy, blameless, and conformed to His Image. He chose the elect, which is His Church, to be the recipients of those benefits. Not a single statement that He predestined any to eternal life. That is pure false Calvinism.
You keep forgetting that Christ needed to save the world before He could have any elect. You want the result or purpose without the event that makes it possible.
simple fact, John 10:11 is addressing THE sheep. You cannot have His Sheep unless and untill death and sin are defeated. That is the work of Christ, atonement, His gift to the world. 27-29 is the typical proof text for OSAS. The trouble the rest of scripture shows that man does not have any guarantees of his faith. But the point, it has nothing to do with the atonement. It is the purpose of the atonement.
already explained this as well. It just does not fit your Calvinistic theories. Vs 6-10 is all about mankind. It aligns with Col 1:20, II Cor 5:18-19. And again, the purpose of His atonment, so that man can live IN Christ, being saved by His life.
Which does not refute that Christ first needed to defeat death and sin, so that He could call all men to repentance. It would be quite engenuous if God states He is calling all men to repentance, but not a single person could be inherit eternal life even if they responded, since Christ, in your view, did not defeat death and sin for everyone.
Gal 2:20 is speaking about baptism. It has nothing to do with the atonement.
3:13-14 is saying the same thing. Christ by His atonement made ONE man, Eph 2:16 both Jew and Gentile,in other words all men. And the benefits, namely receiving of the Spirit through faith. As I stated before if faith is the active word, it cannot be addressing the atonement. It is addressing the purpose of the atonement.
Gal 4:4-5 is very specific in that Christ redeemed all since all were under the law. No limitation here.
Same with I John 4:9-10, it is universal, not limited.
Rev 1:4-6 is procliaming Christ's sovereignty. Christ is the first born from the dead. It is addressing the atonement. The next verse 6 is addressing believers who are joined to Christ by baptism.
Rev 5:9-10 is a doxology to the Lamb who has inaugerated as new Age, the Messianic Age. again it is not specifically describing the atonement, though does refer to it.
I have already explained this one which does not address atonement and is not a proof text for limited atonement either
His High Priestly Prayer has four parts, vs1-5 He is praying for Himself, vs 6-19 He is praying for His disciples, vs20-23 He is praying for His Church, and vs24-26 is all others or the world.
Which is the whole purpose of God creating man in the first place, then Christ redeeming man and the world from death and sin, so that the Holy Spirit can call all men to repentance. Those that see, hear, and believe shall inherit eternal life. Again, not addressing the atonement but the purpose of the atonement.
Now where is there any text that says Christ did not atone for sin, but only some sin?
Where is the text that says Christ did not defeat death, that there will be no resurection? Christ is the firstborn of the dead, not the firstborn of dead believers.
Explain to me where the limitation is in Heb 2:9 and I John 2:2? Or even in the equation of I Cor 15:22?
"All things" is not all people, but is creation itself which Jesus will liberate from its bondage to decay and bring into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Are you sure about that?
Only believers are saved (Jn 3:18, 36).
All the saved are given to Christ.
Christ loses none given to him.
No unbelievers were given to Christ, and so are condemned to God's wrath (Jn 3:18, 36).
Are you sure about that?
Faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27), and he chooses to whom he gives his gift.
That's not what the text states.. . ."those he chose, he predestined"
Are you sure about that?
Eternal life is knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. (Jn 17:3)
All the born again know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." (Jn 6:54)
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that
you may know that you have eternal life." (1Jn 5:11-13)
"We are in him who is true--that is in his Son Jesus Christ. He is he the true God and eternal life." (1Jn 5:20)
Are you sure about that?
You forget that the elect were chosen/determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created.
You forget Jesus came to die for them so they could then be adopted as sons of God.
Are you sure about that?
Jesus said he knows (present tense) his sheep and his sheep know (present tense) him.
You are not giving the meaning of the verses presented, being true to their words and their context.
You are simply trying to counter them with your false theology.
And you present more misunderstanding and false assertions regarding Scripture than I may be willing to deal with.
Are you sure about that?
Only believers are saved (Jn 3:18, 36).
All the saved are given to Christ.
Christ loses none given to him.
No unbelievers were given to Christ, and so are condemned to God's wrath (Jn 3:18, 36).
Are you sure about that?
Faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27), and he chooses to whom he gives his gift.
That's not what the text states.. . ."those he chose, he predestined"
Are you sure about that?
Eternal life is knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. (Jn 17:3)
All the born again know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." (Jn 6:54)
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that
you may know that you have eternal life." (1Jn 5:11-13)
"We are in him who is true--that is in his Son Jesus Christ. He is he the true God and eternal life." (1Jn 5:20)
Are you sure about that?
You forget that the elect were chosen/determined in eternity past before the worlds were ever created.
You forget Jesus came to die for them so they could then be adopted as sons of God.
Are you sure about that?
Jesus said he knows (present tense) his sheep and his sheep know (present tense) him.
You are not giving the meaning of the verses presented, being true to their words and their context.
You are simply trying to counter them with your false theology.
And you present more misunderstanding and false assertions regarding Scripture than I may be willing to deal with.
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You really do not understand. The world is still redeemed. Man cannot die, become mortal again. Christ, first of all did not change our natures in this life. That is why there will be a resurrection at the end, where we will all stand in judgment. As far as I know, God nor Christ ceased to exist, thereby nullifying the perfect, ONE-TIME sacrifice for sin. So, the world is still in a correct relationship with God. Satan has been defeated, He knows that. The consummation can happen at any time.
You have really missed it. Sad. We are in the millennium. Satan is already bound. He lost the war, it is just the battle that he is waging hoping to devour (deceive) as many Christians as he can. They are the only ones he does not have in his pocket. Have you not read that Christ defeated death and sin, the powers of Satan. Christ even entered his domain (Hades) an took those held captive by him. You have been deceived by man made theories, how many more do you hold?
Scripture says it is. Do I believe you or scripture and what the Holy Spirit gave to the saints in the beginning. It is our vocation to assist in getting individuals reconciled to God.
You have really missed it. Sad. We are in the millennium. Satan is already bound. He lost the war, it is just the battle that he is waging hoping to devour (deceive) as many Christians as he can. They are the only ones he does not have in his pocket. Have you not read that Christ defeated death and sin, the powers of Satan. Christ even entered his domain (Hades) an took those held captive by him. You have been deceived by man made theories, how many more do you hold?
Scripture says it is. Do I believe you or scripture and what the Holy Spirit gave to the saints in the beginning. It is our vocation to assist in getting individuals reconciled to God.
Wow, this thread has moved on quite a bit over the weekend. Not sure if what we were originally talking about, but in terms of Cassian's objections, might still be relevant to address what I think underpins most of the disagreement.
I guess this comes down to what comes under the rubric and effect of specifically the atonement, and what doesn't. I'm not 100% sure how much of our eternal character comes from the atonement specifically and how much comes from simply being, out of all creation, the creatures made in the image of God and given life from the very breath (ruach) of God. We could have a discussion about that, but I tend to think that part of our eternal character, at the very least, comes from the latter. Certainly, in Jewish thought, there was a pre existant belief of an eternal 'soul' and of an eternal judgement, even if it was not a universal Jewish belief. Certainly, concepts of Sheol ('death'), generally involve some kind of awareness and post-existance, rather than a complete lack of existence. This was without an understanding of awareness of a complete divine atonement conducted by God. I don't know, I feel like I'd need some pretty convincing proof to agree that the Bible explicitly teaches that the atonement effects eternal existance as opposed to non existance.
A secondary question is - in what sense is the atonement then an 'atonement' when it arguably confers on some people a more distant relationship with God than they would have without an atonement. Are sinners better of with eternal existance apart from God, or are they better of not existing at all?
In any case, apart from that caveat, What you are arguing is, again, not that different from what Calvinists and Arminians believe. Certainly, Calvin believed that the Lord was a Saviour to all, in that the life he gives to them proceeds itself from his mercy and grace, and in view of the corruption of mankind and the world is undeserved. But he distinguishes between this and eternal salvation, which you do as well. Similarly, in Arminian thought.
I feel like the real problem here is not Limited Atonement (the differences in opinion in this thread are really not about what actually happens to people and how they might be saved, but about what qualifies as part of the atonement and what doesn't), but PSA. The two are quite different, and one can believe PSA at some level and not hold to limited atonement.
I guess this comes down to what comes under the rubric and effect of specifically the atonement, and what doesn't. I'm not 100% sure how much of our eternal character comes from the atonement specifically and how much comes from simply being, out of all creation, the creatures made in the image of God and given life from the very breath (ruach) of God. We could have a discussion about that, but I tend to think that part of our eternal character, at the very least, comes from the latter. Certainly, in Jewish thought, there was a pre existant belief of an eternal 'soul' and of an eternal judgement, even if it was not a universal Jewish belief. Certainly, concepts of Sheol ('death'), generally involve some kind of awareness and post-existance, rather than a complete lack of existence. This was without an understanding of awareness of a complete divine atonement conducted by God. I don't know, I feel like I'd need some pretty convincing proof to agree that the Bible explicitly teaches that the atonement effects eternal existance as opposed to non existance.
A secondary question is - in what sense is the atonement then an 'atonement' when it arguably confers on some people a more distant relationship with God than they would have without an atonement. Are sinners better of with eternal existance apart from God, or are they better of not existing at all?
In any case, apart from that caveat, What you are arguing is, again, not that different from what Calvinists and Arminians believe. Certainly, Calvin believed that the Lord was a Saviour to all, in that the life he gives to them proceeds itself from his mercy and grace, and in view of the corruption of mankind and the world is undeserved. But he distinguishes between this and eternal salvation, which you do as well. Similarly, in Arminian thought.
I feel like the real problem here is not Limited Atonement (the differences in opinion in this thread are really not about what actually happens to people and how they might be saved, but about what qualifies as part of the atonement and what doesn't), but PSA. The two are quite different, and one can believe PSA at some level and not hold to limited atonement.
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Where does the Bible say that: unless Christ died on the Cross, there would be no eternal damnation for sinners?
Christ did not grant immortality of soul to all men. That is not Scripturally sourced.
Second, if Satan is currently bound, then how is he waging battle? Isn't that what he will do when he is loosed AFTER the Millenium?
Come on. Think about this for a minute.
One minute you say that Christ atoned for the entire world, and then say that the vocation of those in Christ is to assist others in getting reconciled with God? Are you hearing the contradiction? According to you yourself, the work of reconciliation is complete, and all men have been given a right relationship with God.
Christ did not grant immortality of soul to all men. That is not Scripturally sourced.
Second, if Satan is currently bound, then how is he waging battle? Isn't that what he will do when he is loosed AFTER the Millenium?
Come on. Think about this for a minute.
One minute you say that Christ atoned for the entire world, and then say that the vocation of those in Christ is to assist others in getting reconciled with God? Are you hearing the contradiction? According to you yourself, the work of reconciliation is complete, and all men have been given a right relationship with God.
Already completed. We are about to celebrate Easter, the Resurrection. It is a completed event, 2000 years ago. Man is an integral part of creation which is why the world was condemned to death as man was.
All men are saved from death and sin. ONLY believers will inherit eternal life. Yes, all the saved, namely all things, man and the material world was given to Christ. And you are also correct, not a human being will be lost. He will raise every single human being in the last day.
Have you not heard that heaven and hell are eternal? It would be quite impossible for God to condemn someone who is, in your view, still condemned to death through Adam. In fact, your theory eliminates the need for heaven or hell. If Christ does not defeat death for all, death is not defeated, Christ failed and even those in Christ perish. I Cor 15:18.
You hold to some man made philosophical construct that has no relationship with the actual meaning of scripture.
Believers are not given to Christ either. It takes a man's faith, repentance, baptism to be IN Christ, and man is free to leave the relationship at any time.
Your entire statement did not address predestination of anyone. The word, faith, was in every statement. That is a free choice of man, not predestination.
All things we have is a gift. Why would it surprise you that all men have faith. It is that some do not use the gift to believe. All men have the ability, the capability to respond to God. God is making sure no stone goes unturned so that no man has the excuse that he did not have the opportunity to know God. God will judge every man on the basis of measure of grace He has given to every man. Read the parable of the talents. You'll hopefully get the idea.
he chose those that love Him. They are the elect. It is those that He, the Holy Spirit actually, will work to make holy, blameless and conformed to His Image. That ONLY occurs to those that are IN Christ. A believer can remove himself from that relationship and thus not receive its benefits to be healed and inherit eternal life.
Are you sure about that?
Eternal life is knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. (Jn 17:3)
All the born again know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." (Jn 6:54)
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that
you may know that you have eternal life." (1Jn 5:11-13)
"We are in him who is true--that is in his Son Jesus Christ. He is he the true God and eternal life." (1Jn 5:20)
That is pure unadulterated Calvinism and is far from what scripture teaches. To those that believe He gave authority (power) to become children of God.
Nothing in scripture ever states that one is predestined to believe. One of Calvin's false concepts.
it is always and ONLY in the present tense. Believes is never stated either past or future. Which is why OSAS, another Calvin dogma is false.
they are true to the context of scripture and how it has been s
You are simply trying to counter them with your false theology.
Only respective of Calvinism. You can never make Calvinism align with scripture. It is purely and solely the creation of man 400 years ago. It has been nuanced by many others, but the root, predestination, remains an makes everything else false as well. If the premise is false, the conclusion will never be correct.
All men are saved from death and sin. ONLY believers will inherit eternal life. Yes, all the saved, namely all things, man and the material world was given to Christ. And you are also correct, not a human being will be lost. He will raise every single human being in the last day.
Have you not heard that heaven and hell are eternal? It would be quite impossible for God to condemn someone who is, in your view, still condemned to death through Adam. In fact, your theory eliminates the need for heaven or hell. If Christ does not defeat death for all, death is not defeated, Christ failed and even those in Christ perish. I Cor 15:18.
You hold to some man made philosophical construct that has no relationship with the actual meaning of scripture.
Believers are not given to Christ either. It takes a man's faith, repentance, baptism to be IN Christ, and man is free to leave the relationship at any time.
Your entire statement did not address predestination of anyone. The word, faith, was in every statement. That is a free choice of man, not predestination.
All things we have is a gift. Why would it surprise you that all men have faith. It is that some do not use the gift to believe. All men have the ability, the capability to respond to God. God is making sure no stone goes unturned so that no man has the excuse that he did not have the opportunity to know God. God will judge every man on the basis of measure of grace He has given to every man. Read the parable of the talents. You'll hopefully get the idea.
he chose those that love Him. They are the elect. It is those that He, the Holy Spirit actually, will work to make holy, blameless and conformed to His Image. That ONLY occurs to those that are IN Christ. A believer can remove himself from that relationship and thus not receive its benefits to be healed and inherit eternal life.
Are you sure about that?
Eternal life is knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent. (Jn 17:3)
All the born again know the Father and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." (Jn 6:54)
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that
you may know that you have eternal life." (1Jn 5:11-13)
"We are in him who is true--that is in his Son Jesus Christ. He is he the true God and eternal life." (1Jn 5:20)
That is pure unadulterated Calvinism and is far from what scripture teaches. To those that believe He gave authority (power) to become children of God.
Nothing in scripture ever states that one is predestined to believe. One of Calvin's false concepts.
it is always and ONLY in the present tense. Believes is never stated either past or future. Which is why OSAS, another Calvin dogma is false.
they are true to the context of scripture and how it has been s
You are simply trying to counter them with your false theology.
Only respective of Calvinism. You can never make Calvinism align with scripture. It is purely and solely the creation of man 400 years ago. It has been nuanced by many others, but the root, predestination, remains an makes everything else false as well. If the premise is false, the conclusion will never be correct.
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S
Where did you get the idea that the death inherited by Adam is nonexistence?
You get ahead of yourself before looking at the basics.
Also, the Word clearly says that the Father has given to the Son all those who will Believe, and that He will not lose a one except the one forordained to destruction.
You get ahead of yourself before looking at the basics.
Also, the Word clearly says that the Father has given to the Son all those who will Believe, and that He will not lose a one except the one forordained to destruction.
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Genesis 3:19 to be specific. Man was created to be eternal and in union with God. Adam was taken captive by Satan, and the condemnation of Adam's sin is death. Dust to dust from whence we came. That is non-existence. Christ assumed that fallen mortal human nature for the express purpose to defeat death, and raise our mortal natures to life, to an eternal existence again which is stated in the entire chapter of I Cor 15. Besides other places as well.
What kind of existence do you think dust has? It has never been understood differently by the Church until the RCC made some changes and adopted a form of Original Sin developed byAugustine. All Protestant Reformers adopted Original Sin in their theologies along with a few other false concepts, namely the Satisfaction theory of atonement. Calvin then adds Pen/Sub to the satisfaction theory which puts it even further from scripture.
What kind of existence do you think dust has? It has never been understood differently by the Church until the RCC made some changes and adopted a form of Original Sin developed byAugustine. All Protestant Reformers adopted Original Sin in their theologies along with a few other false concepts, namely the Satisfaction theory of atonement. Calvin then adds Pen/Sub to the satisfaction theory which puts it even further from scripture.
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^ Cite some church father's who specific that the death that Adam inherited was utter non existance post death, at least we can get the discussion rolling in that direction. But the main problem is, as I mentioned in my earlier post, that the idea of dust to dust doesn't automatically mean non-existance post death - the Jewish concepts of sheol generally posits some sort of post-death existance, not annihilation, while also obviously including texts like Genesis and Ecclesiastes.
Sophia,
never states that at all. You are incorrectly paraphrasing John 6:39. it is addressing all that was given to Christ. All things were given to Christ, Col 1:20, He redeemed all things with His Blood.
Now the reason He needed to do that is in vs 40, so that those that see and believe will be raised to everlasting life.
He did not lose Judas either, unless you think that hell does not exist and therefore he is not in hell. But if that were true none of us are saved. I Cor 15:17.
never states that at all. You are incorrectly paraphrasing John 6:39. it is addressing all that was given to Christ. All things were given to Christ, Col 1:20, He redeemed all things with His Blood.
Now the reason He needed to do that is in vs 40, so that those that see and believe will be raised to everlasting life.
He did not lose Judas either, unless you think that hell does not exist and therefore he is not in hell. But if that were true none of us are saved. I Cor 15:17.
S
eh... you are adding concepts to the Word. Death was always considered a place of rest/waiting, never non-existence.
There was always a separation given in Scripture between those who can kill the flesh, opposed to the One who judges the soul.
The curse of death was physical death... never in Scripture is that death considered non-existence.
There was always a separation given in Scripture between those who can kill the flesh, opposed to the One who judges the soul.
The curse of death was physical death... never in Scripture is that death considered non-existence.