Nicko1,
...which is itself a presupposition. I can't see how you're pulling a developed idea of contingent immortality from this verse, which is itself meant to be partially poetic. Notice God also says they are currently dust - yet they live, breathe, and commune with God. There's no argument to be made from that text for your position.
Yes, it is a supposition, but one based on the rest of scripture. Let's leave Christ's redemption aside for a moment.
Death is a process. Corruption, decay leads to death. We have a biological existence now in that we breathe, a gift from God also. But we are mortal beings. We live is a state of death. We need to kill everything in order to maintain that biological existence. Life as scripture uses it is immortality. It was the purpose of God that man attain immortality through love and obedience. Adam was not created a perfected human being but was created to grow, to mature to acquire immortality. Which is why the two trees are in the Garden. Mortality and immortality. Adam chose mortality on the deception of Satan who is the originator of death. Adam did not die biologically immediately, but eventually succumbed to death. An unnatural circumstance since God created man to be eternal and immortal with Him.
Read what I wrote. What I am saying is that it is inconsistent to read Genesis 3 one way, and then read other OT texts another way, for no reason. Your argument is essentially that God is explicitly saying people will die and cease to exist, but not only does this idea not sit easily with other OT conceptions of Sheol, but it has never actually happened to a single person anyway.
I don't see the inconsistancy because the rest of scripture supports it. If death is not an issue in creation, then Christ is not needed to bring life back to this creation. If death is natural and God created the world to be dissolved then you have a point.
You're making the assumption, I believe, that death is of God in the first place. You argument leaves out Satan whose intention was to destroy God's creation through death.
There is an underlying thread of this war between God and Satan all through Scripture. You already stated that in Gen 3:15. Death was brought to this world by Satan and through man's nature. Man became mortal. God in His wisdom knew this would happen and had planned on Christ to be the agent by which death and Satan would be defeated. He would be Incarnated, become man, bear our human nature to raise it to life. Christ comes into this world, according to God's timetable. The Church Fathers have stated that God deceived Satan twice, once in the fact that the Holy Spirit Incarnated Christ with Mary. Christ became man but not by the normal generation. Then when Satan realized that Christ was also God, we have the temptations of Christ, same as with Adam. When Christ was killed, Satan seemed to have victory in hand again. But alas, Christ is risen and risen with man's nature, thus defeating death permanently. The only thing Satan has left is to continue to decieve people away from Christ. He is still waging the war, but will only win battles in decieving man, but has already lost the war. When Christ comes again it is to consummate the victory over death which was His resurrection.
So, then we are agreed at least that whatever the difference in our views on the immortality or not of the human 'soul', it actually makes no difference in the outcome for mankind whatsoever. I might disagree with you that the atonement itself is what is responsible for post-death existence, but it makes no practical different in terms of what happens to any given person.
Which is correct because we are not God and even if we had no knowledge of God (no revelation) according to some it would happen anyway. But the fact is, a correct understanding of who God is, why man was created, what He is being saved from and why is of utmost importance. Differing views on any of these leads to false conceptions of who God is, who Christ is and what was actually accomplished and why.
Just to give you an example. The whole growth of Original Sin, later tied into Satisfaction theory of atonement, then pen/sub added, makes a direct denial of who Christ is, denies the Incarnation, denies the original intent of God creating man.
Or, Christ is not saving man from hell. There is no such thing as instant "salvation" by satisfaction and faith in perpetuity in this life with nothing else being valid for man, except gain some rewards.
No, it does not follow. Immortality is not the same as eternality to begin with, but ignore the fact that, at least in theory, God could make something that cannot cease to exist without lessening himself or elevating something to his level.
Adam would have been already perfected as a human being. Adam would have been incapable of sinning. Unless you think that when we are in eternity, being immortal we will still be able to sin, disobey God? So, by your statement, man does have the option to cease to exist even as an immortal being?
Well, you obviously believe in eternal judgement and eternal life, so you believe it is taught. I also believe any immortality on the part of humans solely comes about because God made it so, not just because it somehow 'happened' apart from him. The difference is I'm not convinced the atonement is the exclusive instrument of that. But again, this still makes no differnence in terms of what actually happens to people.
What I meant is that the natural immortality of the soul or man is not taught in scripture. And I have already stated that because of the fall, Christ was needed to fulfill man's vocation of attaining immortality. So, it is by Christ or by grace, however you wish to state it.
I Cor 15 is the chapter that discusses the purpose of Christ's Incarnation and resurrection. Vs 12-22 are quite emphatic that the resurrection and granting life to all men is the most essential incredient of the atonement. Faith is worthless in granting life, as vs 18 states. Then it is repeated in vs 52:54.
Yes, Paul is talking of eternal life with God, which you've already distinguished from eternal judgement. I'm interested, do you believe people in hell are also victorious in Christ and are not corrupted?
yes, I Cor 15:52-54 is all men are made immortal and incorrupible. Christ really and surely defeated death and sin. The ONLY thing that is relevant for us is our relationship which was again made possible. Man in hell is not going to die, being mortal, or be suseptible to corruption. It is eternal and immortal. Sin does not exist, they will have no commuion with God because they rejected that communion with God in this life. They rejected God's call to repentance and to be healed and walking in the Spirit, being molded into the likeness of Christ.
But we're not even at the point of talking about guilt or anything along those lines. FWIW, I don't honestly see that much difference between EO and other views of original/ancestral sin. The only difference to me is that EO emphasises individual sin, rather than simply inheriting the debt of the sin from the previous generation, but the likes of Calvin certainly don't say that people are not culpable for their own sin, and judged for their own sin. I don't honestly see an appreciable difference. Still don't see what this has to do with contingent immortality.
I have already shown just how the differences play out in how people see salvation. Respective of Calvinists, they are a confused lot respective of salvation. You say they teach man's liable for sin, primarily because scripture is so strong on that issue. But theologically it is impossible for man to have any responsibility in the Calvinist view. If God selects certain one's to be saved, has some special regeneration to be aware of God so that it is irresistable and simple faith saves one in perpetuity is one side. For the other side, God did not select to salvation, does not regenerate them, and because of the predestination concept, they cannot be responsible for a state of being that is decreed by God. Which is why the whole Calvinistic system is so convulted with inherent contradictions with scripture.
He exists because he's made in the image of God, with his breath, alone of creation. The judgement of death does not necessarily entail non existance after death - it just means that man experiences death. I believe Satan exists. I don't believe death is his domain, because he doesn't truly have a 'domain'. He's just out to wreck creation, and will come under God's final judgement.
which does not answer the question. What is death you have not answered. Why does man experience death? Was it the purpose of God that man experience death? So, you do not believe Heb 2:14 which says death is the work of Satan?
No, I think the atonement is not just a sacrifice for sin, because the atonement is twinned with the resurrection. You can't seperate the two. But it is true that those in Christ will still die, because all men are destined to die once, but will only suffer one death. So death's sting is cut out - it will not win over those who are in Christ.
Scripture says we will still die once to rid this body of sin. Our sin originates in the flesh, our mortal nature which is confirmed in I Cor 15:56. Which is why Paul has this explanation of sowing in corruptibility and being raised in incorruptibility. Death is cut out for those in hell as well. Which is why or how they can suffer the second death, the spiritual death.
As a side note, I don't think a lack of atonement would mean no new heaven or earth. There's no particular reason God could not just nuke everything and start again. He did it all once out of nothing. The difference would be no redemption from this creation.
He did just that, start again. Several early Church Fathers used the term, recapitulation regarding Christ's atonement. Christ recreated man and the world. The consumation occurs at His second coming.
I'm sure God could have used a different method, but the one revealed to us is that Christ is the means of God correcting the fall of man and creation to the wiles and works of the devil. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:24, Col 1:20. Why would God nuke everything when His creation was good. Satan enticed man to sin and took him and the world captive through death. Purge death and sin, and God's creation is back to the original state.