Revelation

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K

kennethcadwell

Guest
2 points.....

1. Does not say MUSLIM merchants
2. At time written EVERYONE knew what it meant to throw dust on their heads as a sign of mourning

edit...The key is following the bible and being honest with what it teaches...not following the Islamic symbolism

The bible speaks of the star and crescent moon symbols that follow the beast system, and also how it will continue to do worship in the same way as the original Babylonian system.
The U.S. does not follow that system, as we are closer to the Roman empire system then the Babylonian system. The Muslims however do follow most of those same practices still, and John saw them in his vision doing that. He was not using symbolism at that point of them throwing dust on their foreheads.

That is a Muslim tradition not a Jewish tradition, as Jew's cut off their beards and mustaches for morning not throw dust on their foreheads.............
 
Dec 12, 2013
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It doesn't say that verbatim...only that the dragon gave him his seat and authority I.E. delegated power and authority....not that the dragon gave up his seat of power to the beast...SATAN wanted to dethrone Jesus...no way he is going to give UP his position to any man.....!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thanks, this will help me study from this point of reference then
as you do, study daniel 2, 7, 9, rev 13 and rev 20. to figure out who this "beast" is.

you will see he is mentioned in all of those books. and each successive books we are given more info of who he is.


I have a quick outline if you are interested.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The bible speaks of the star and crescent moon symbols that follow the beast system, and also how it will continue to do worship in the same way as the original Babylonian system.
The U.S. does not follow that system, as we are closer to the Roman empire system then the Babylonian system. The Muslims however do follow most of those same practices still, and John saw them in his vision doing that. He was not using symbolism at that point of them throwing dust on their foreheads.

That is a Muslim tradition not a Jewish tradition, as Jew's cut off their beards and mustaches for morning not throw dust on their foreheads.............

Book, chapter and verse.........
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
And I think it would be a shameful day when you thought you had to. It sure wasn't "her husband" the Samaritan woman at the well was privately and quietly having that theological discussion with.
You know I was busting, but you certainly cannot hear Jesus Christ always if your seated at other teachers feet (listening to them). I can sometimes lack patience (not waiting on the Lord long enough) for my questions.

I think the difference is that Jesus should be heard (so I should learn in quieteness at his feet) not anothers, once I hear him (then hearing those who speak in accord with him would be far easier).

Its just that I dont study this, so everyone sounds like they speak chinese
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Book, chapter and verse.........
lol. He is blinded by his catholic master. He holds most of her beliefs (works based gospel) which came out from her. so he will not down her. So he has to make it something else. it can not be his mother church,
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
You know I was busting, but you certainly cannot hear Jesus Christ always if your seated at other teachers feet (listening to them). I can sometimes lack patience (not waiting on the Lord long enough) for my questions.

I think the difference is that Jesus should be heard (so I should learn in quieteness at his feet) not anothers, once I hear him (then hearing those who speak in accord with him would be far easier).

Its just that I dont study this, so everyone sounds like they speak chinese

You must be so confused.. listening to us then :(
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest

[h=1]Revelation 2:12-13[/h]12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos (also known as Pergamum) write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



Revelation 13 also shows this is where the man of sin seat will be, and this place is located in Turkey;


This article is about the ancient Greek city. For the nearby modern city of Turkey, see Bergama. For some mythological and Bible uses, see Pergamus. For other uses, see Pergamon (disambiguation).
[TABLE="class: infobox vcard, width: 22"]
[TR]
[TH="class: fn org, colspan: 2, align: center"]Pergamon[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]τὸ Πέργαμον (Ancient Greek)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]
The reconstructed Temple of Trajan at Pergamon.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]




Shown within Turkey​



[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Alternate name[/TH]
[TD="class: nickname"]Pergamum[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Location[/TH]
[TD="class: label"]Bergama, Izmir Province, Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Region[/TH]
[TD="class: label"]Aeolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Coordinates[/TH]
[TD]
39°07′57″N 27°11′03″E[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Type[/TH]
[TD="class: category"]Settlement[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Area[/TH]
[TD]90 ha (220 acres)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #9999AA, colspan: 2, align: center"]History[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Cultures[/TH]
[TD]Greek, Roman[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Associated with[/TH]
[TD]Epigonus, Sosus of Pergamon,Aelius Nicon, Galen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #9999AA, colspan: 2, align: center"]Site notes[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Condition[/TH]
[TD]Ruined[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Ownership[/TH]
[TD]Public[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Public access[/TH]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="colspan: 2, align: center"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]Official name: Pergamon and its Multi-Layered Cultural Landscape[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Type[/TH]
[TD]Cultural[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Criteria[/TH]
[TD]i, ii, iii, iv, vi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Designated[/TH]
[TD]2014 (38th session)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Reference No.[/TH]
[TD]1457[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Region[/TH]
[TD]Europe and North America[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: vertical-navbox nowraplinks vcard, width: 22"]
[TR]
[TH]Part of a series on the
[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: navbox-title"]History of Turkey[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prehistory[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bronze Age[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Classical Age[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Medieval Age[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ottoman Era[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Republic of Turkey[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]By topic[show]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timeline[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
Turkey portal[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Pergamon /ˈpɜrɡəmən/ or /ˈpɜrɡəmɒn/ or Pergamum /ˈpɜrɡəməm/ (Ancient Greek: τὸ Πέργαμον, to Pergamon, or ἡ Πέργαμος, hē Pergamos) was an ancient Greekcity in Aeolis, currently located 26 kilometres (16 mi) from the Aegean Sea on a promontory on the north side of the river Caicus (modern-day Bakırçay). Today, the main sites of ancient Pergamon are to the north and west of the modern city of Bergama in Turkey.
Some[SUP][who?][/SUP] ancient authors regarded it as a colony of the Arcadians, but the various origin stories all belong to legend. The Greek historians reconstructed a complete history for it due to confusion with the distant Teuthrania.[SUP][1][/SUP] It became the capital of the Kingdom of Pergamon during the Hellenistic period, under theAttalid dynasty, 281–133 BC. Pergamon is cited in the Book of Revelation as one of the seven churches of Asia.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Revelation 2:12-13

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos (also known as Pergamum) write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.



Revelation 13 also shows this is where the man of sin seat will be, and this place is located in Turkey;


This article is about the ancient Greek city. For the nearby modern city of Turkey, see Bergama. For some mythological and Bible uses, see Pergamus. For other uses, see Pergamon (disambiguation).
[TABLE="class: infobox vcard, width: 22"]
[TR]
[TH="class: fn org, colspan: 2, align: center"]Pergamon[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]τὸ Πέργαμον (Ancient Greek)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]
The reconstructed Temple of Trajan at Pergamon.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]




Shown within Turkey​


[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Alternate name[/TH]
[TD="class: nickname"]Pergamum[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Location[/TH]
[TD="class: label"]Bergama, Izmir Province, Turkey[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Region[/TH]
[TD="class: label"]Aeolis[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Coordinates[/TH]
[TD]
39°07′57″N 27°11′03″E[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Type[/TH]
[TD="class: category"]Settlement[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Area[/TH]
[TD]90 ha (220 acres)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #9999AA, colspan: 2, align: center"]History[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Cultures[/TH]
[TD]Greek, Roman[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Associated with[/TH]
[TD]Epigonus, Sosus of Pergamon,Aelius Nicon, Galen[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #9999AA, colspan: 2, align: center"]Site notes[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Condition[/TH]
[TD]Ruined[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Ownership[/TH]
[TD]Public[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Public access[/TH]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="colspan: 2, align: center"][/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]Official name: Pergamon and its Multi-Layered Cultural Landscape[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Type[/TH]
[TD]Cultural[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Criteria[/TH]
[TD]i, ii, iii, iv, vi[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Designated[/TH]
[TD]2014 (38th session)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Reference No.[/TH]
[TD]1457[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Region[/TH]
[TD]Europe and North America[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: vertical-navbox nowraplinks vcard, width: 22"]
[TR]
[TH]Part of a series on the[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="class: navbox-title"]History of Turkey[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Prehistory[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Bronze Age[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Classical Age[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Medieval Age[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ottoman Era[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Republic of Turkey[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]By topic[show]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Timeline[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
Turkey portal[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: right"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Pergamon /ˈpɜrɡəmən/ or /ˈpɜrɡəmɒn/ or Pergamum /ˈpɜrɡəməm/ (Ancient Greek: τὸ Πέργαμον, to Pergamon, or ἡ Πέργαμος, hē Pergamos) was an ancient Greekcity in Aeolis, currently located 26 kilometres (16 mi) from the Aegean Sea on a promontory on the north side of the river Caicus (modern-day Bakırçay). Today, the main sites of ancient Pergamon are to the north and west of the modern city of Bergama in Turkey.
Some[SUP][who?][/SUP] ancient authors regarded it as a colony of the Arcadians, but the various origin stories all belong to legend. The Greek historians reconstructed a complete history for it due to confusion with the distant Teuthrania.[SUP][1][/SUP] It became the capital of the Kingdom of Pergamon during the Hellenistic period, under theAttalid dynasty, 281–133 BC. Pergamon is cited in the Book of Revelation as one of the seven churches of Asia.
thats a weak argument. Satan dwells everywhere. He dwelled in babylon. He dwelled in greece, He dwelled in Tyre. He dwelled in rome. He dwells all over.

Nothing in that passage states that is the final beast. It just says he dwells there.

By the way, have you even studied islam. Do you actually know where it comes from? or are you just doing like you actually do. Listening to men. and believe what they say?

 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
as you do, study daniel 2, 7, 9, rev 13 and rev 20. to figure out who this "beast" is.

you will see he is mentioned in all of those books. and each successive books we are given more info of who he is.


I have a quick outline if you are interested.
Hey thanks, I have it written out and highlighted appropriately I just stink at math geography and I find it utterly confusing, I think it might be best to just listen as you guys use the scriptures to prove your points.

I cant tell anything without scripture so I will disregard every post (from every side) without it

and then deem ya an incompetant teacher,

or not apt to teach

so ya better use them

(and rightly)

or else...

Proverbs 14:7... (I got my orders)


(lol)
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
113
The bible speaks of the star and crescent moon symbols that follow the beast system, and also how it will continue to do worship in the same way as the original Babylonian system.
The U.S. does not follow that system, as we are closer to the Roman empire system then the Babylonian system. The Muslims however do follow most of those same practices still, and John saw them in his vision doing that. He was not using symbolism at that point of them throwing dust on their foreheads.

That is a Muslim tradition not a Jewish tradition, as Jew's cut off their beards and mustaches for morning not throw dust on their foreheads.............
You should read more...The Jews mourned in sackcloth and ASHES....go see what JOB did when in mourning........
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Hey thanks, I have it written out and highlighted appropriately I just stink at math geography and I find it utterly confusing, I think it might be best to just listen as you guys use the scriptures to prove your points.

I cant tell anything without scripture so I will disregard every post (from every side) without it

and then deem ya an incompetant teacher,

or not apt to teach

so ya better use them

(and rightly)

or else...

Proverbs 14:7... (I got my orders)


(lol)
amen to this.
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest

You must be so confused.. listening to us then :(
Thats always how it is, thats why I said I have a hard time learning in silence being impatient (although hoping to hear more according to the things I can grasp) and letting go of the rest.

Been stuck here for many years, people ask, what do YOU believe in whats it called? Eschatology?

I say I have no clue really, its all not tied in at all for me to say for sure.

I would be afraid of spreading error to take a stand on uncertainity in these things.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
113
thats a weak argument. Satan dwells everywhere. He dwelled in babylon. He dwelled in greece, He dwelled in Tyre. He dwelled in rome. He dwells all over.

Nothing in that passage states that is the final beast. It just says he dwells there.

By the way, have you even studied islam. Do you actually know where it comes from? or are you just doing like you actually do. Listening to men. and believe what they say?

I was going to say the same thing...nor does it prove what he is trying to prove..........The fact that Satan's seat was located in Asia Minor during the 1st century does not mean it is located in Turkey today...
 
D

DesiredHaven

Guest
But if we just went with what Jesus indicated in respects to the seat he pointed out (and later) the dragon/Satan gives this beast his seat where would you put it outside of where Jesus said it was?

If looking at it geographically (that is).
 
Feb 7, 2015
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Thats always how it is, thats why I said I have a hard time learning in silence being impatient (although hoping to hear more according to the things I can grasp) and letting go of the rest.

Been stuck here for many years, people ask, what do YOU believe in whats it called? Eschatology?

I say I have no clue really, its all not tied in at all for me to say for sure.

I would be afraid of spreading error to take a stand on uncertainity in these things.
Sister, don't feel alone. I spend a fair amount of time elsewhere with guys and gals who really DO understand Theology, and half the time they don't agree, either.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Book, chapter and verse.........
I will give you another one of them as I gave you Acts 19 previously about how they will worship a falling idol from Zeus, but here is another;

Acts 7:43
Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.


The star and crescent moon symbolism has been around since the Tower of Babel, and was the two main symbols used for Baal-Hamon and Astheroth. All Muslim nations still carry this symbolism, and all of them including Egypt have used this symbolism with their idol worshiping. The golden calf had the crescent and star symbolism on its head. These symbols point the way through out history for our studies, so follow the symbolism and who uses it still. Not to mention Turkey which is where the seat of satan sits also uses this on their flag............
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
thats a weak argument. Satan dwells everywhere. He dwelled in babylon. He dwelled in greece, He dwelled in Tyre. He dwelled in rome. He dwells all over.

Nothing in that passage states that is the final beast. It just says he dwells there.

By the way, have you even studied islam. Do you actually know where it comes from? or are you just doing like you actually do. Listening to men. and believe what they say?

I was going to say the same thing...nor does it prove what he is trying to prove..........The fact that Satan's seat was located in Asia Minor during the 1st century does not mean it is located in Turkey today...


That is not a weak argument because it comes straight from the bible where the seat of satan is, and where the man of sin will be. So if you call it weak then you are saying the bible is weak, because it comes from the bible.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
Mourning rituals in Judaism are extensive. Ritualized mourning has several purposes: it shows respect for the dead, comforts those left behind, helps prevent excessive mourning, and eventually helps the bereaved to return to normal life. Mourning is observed for 30 days after burial, very intensely so in the first seven days. Regular remembrances are performed in the years following the death.
Upon first hearing of the death of a close relative (parent, child, sibling or spouse), grief is traditionally expressed by tearing (keriyah) one's clothing. The bereaved will wear the torn clothing through the first seven days of mourning. The relative then recites a blessing describing God as the true Judge, according to Jewish beliefs.
During the period between death and burial (aninut), the primary responsibility of mourners is to care for the dead and prepare the body for burial. This duty takes precedence over all other commandments. The family is left alone to grieve during aninut; calls or visits should not be made during this time.

After the burial, a relative or friend prepares the "meal of condolence," which traditionally consists of eggs (symbolizing life) and bread. This meal is for family only, but visitors may come to offer condolences afterwards.
The family then enters a seven-day period of intense mourning (shiva, "seven"). Mourners sit on low stools or the floor instead of chairs, do not wear leather shoes, shave or cut their hair, wear cosmetics, work, bathe, have sex, put on fresh clothing, or studyTorah (except Torah related to mourning and grief). They wear the clothes they tore when they learned of the death or at the funeral. Mirrors in the house are covered. Prayer services are held where the shiva is held, with friends, neighbors and relatives making up the minyan.
Shiva is followed by schloshim ("thirty"), which lasts until the 30th day after burial. During this period, the bereaved do not attend parties or celebrations, do not shave or cut their hair, and do not listen to music.