Just another OSAS thread

84Niner · Mar 27, 2015

Where does God draw the line. The line is drawn emphatically in one place. No more, and no less. And that line is drawn in the person of Christ. Christ is the line. We have either crossed that line, or we haven't. He is the standard. Thus, if Christ is the standard, then that demands perfection. This is where people get really confused and begin to attach all sorts of *** to our salvation. They will say, "yes Christ is our salvation, but….."

You see, once a person comes to grip with the notion that once having crossed that line of entering into Christ, and that salvation is "secure", it isn't too long that one begins to realize that they are living a far from perfect life. Maybe better than before, but far from "perfect". Then we have to confront the many passages in the bible that seem to suggest that if one strays far enough away from the faith, and regresses back to their former way of living, that one may become eternally lost.

Personally I do not feel there is any allowance given for losing our salvation, having once obtained it. For sake of discussion, lets lay aside the ones who are christian in name only yet who are not genuinely saved. I'm talking about genuinely saved ones who have strayed so far that they even now openly deny their faith. Yes, I do feel that this can happen to genuinely saved people. And I also feel that even these ones are not becoming "unsaved".

There are many many aspects to this kind of falling away. There may be some who are genuinely saved, yet their lives reflect a still very sinful lifestyle. What about these ones?? Then there are those who come to a place where they deny the faith. What about these ones?

Our initial salvation is simply a beginning of a new Life. The culmination of that life is one of glorification. There is a vast gulf between becoming born again, and becoming glorified. At every turn, at every challenge, at every crisis, the answer is always the same…Christ. It took me 20 years to finally begin to get this. I still am learning this lesson, but at least now I don't spin my wheels as much as before.

This is a huge topic, and there is an answer. The answer for me, may not be the one that you or others are looking for. That answer isn't so simple and is one that I could spend days writing on in this forum. Thus I will leave it at this for now.

One point of study that I will leave you with, is this age we are now living in (the church age) will come to a conclusion. At the conclusion of this age not all genuine Christians will be matured in Christ. There will be millions alive that will be in all manners of stages of growth in Life in Christ. Also of course, there will be all those who have passed away who at the time of their passing will have been in any different stage of their growth in Christ. Some, will have been completely faithful to their salvation and may even be deemed "overcomers", and some will have been the opposite having fallen back into sin, or whatever. And then you will have all those somewhere in-between. God knows. But this age will end, whether we are ready or not. Then the next age will come in, and that age will be called the Millennial Kingdom age. 1,000 years. What will that 1,000 years be for? I can't wait to hear all the answers from those who read this thread. Anyway, some will say that during that age we will be reigning for 1,000 years with Christ. Well yea, okay. Does that mean those who got saved last week and still live in sin will be reigning with Christ for 1,000 years? And who, what, will we be reigning over?

It's funny, the next age is I believe nearly upon us, yet not too many christians talk about it. Or if they do, it is in a very vague manner. I for one believe that one aspect of the next age will have very much to do with all the millions of born again believers who for whatever reason did not experience much maturation and transformation in Christ in this age of "grace".

Like I said, a huge topic. If you are seriously interested I can maybe recommend some literature that would probably be better than this forum that often just turns into endless debate by those trying to prove their points. Carry on…Bro

RickyZ · Mar 27, 2015

I respect your position and I don't for the most part think you are wrong. But you still tie or confuse works/maturity with salvation. Works and maturity are irrelevant to salvation (but not to reward/punishment). Salvation is based upon belief, and belief only. Whether you are mature in or walking according to your beliefs is irrelevant. Whether you believe (there are no shades of gray in yes or no) is what applies to the debate.

Which is why I am trying to steer the debate off of works and maturity to what matters, which is pure and simple belief.

So the OSAS debate is not one about whether you can bad-work your way out of salvation (which you can't), but whether a believer can stop believing. Which is different from maturity and/or doubt.

I'll reserve comment on the 1,000 years to another thread. But you are absolutely right about it being just around the corner.

Thank you for participating and bringing many valid points to the conversation.

MarcR · Mar 27, 2015

notuptome said:

One might indeed hope that; but it doesn't appear to be so. Those in the world, who are unsaved; all believe they are alive; but God's Word says that they are Spiritually dead. Even believers take pride in the results of their own efforts; while Scripture describes these as dead works.

kennethcadwell · Mar 27, 2015

Matthew 7:19

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John 15:2

"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

notuptome · Mar 27, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Proper context refutes your attempt to proof text.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Viligant_Warrior · Mar 27, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Even the NASB errs in it's translation of airo (airo), which means "elevates, lifts up," not "takes away" as most major modern versions render it.

The difference is the key to the whole passage. airo has a secondary meaning that applies here. It means to take upon one's self and carry what has been lifted, bearing it on behalf of the one from whom it has been lifted. When we who belong to Christ fail to bear fruit, He lifts us up, as the vinedresser in a vineyard lifts up the grape vine branchess left lying in the mud after a storm passes through.

The vinedresser today carries a bucket of soapy water and a brush with him on the morning after such a storm, looking for branches that have fallen from the trellises. I've seen this in the vineyards in Hermann and St. James, Missouri, and the first time I did, it was a revelation. Using the brush, wet with soapy water, the vinedresser cleans the fallen branches off, lifts them up and ties them back into the trellis where they may again flourish and bear fruit.

The vinedresser did the same thing in Jesus' day. His disciples would instantly understand the analogy, even if they had never owned a vineyard. Chances are, they had worked the grapes their mother grew in the family garden, wine being absolutely necessary to be mixed with the otherwise deadly water that still, to this day, contains microbiotics that can kill anyone drinking it without purifying it. That's what the alcohol in the wine did, so all families had a small collection of grapevines by which they could make their water potable.

The Vinedresser does the same for those of us who fall, and cannot produce fruit. He lifts us up, He brings us back into the Vine, and there we flourish.

84Niner · Mar 27, 2015

RickyZ said:

Yea, what I think you are maintaining as your main point is the issue of whether one can actually lose their salvation (become unsaved) by means of throwing the towel in on "belief". As if one just comes to a point where they flat out don't believe in the salvation we have in Christ, and thus are in effect denying Christ, and thus become unregenerate (unsaved).

It's a valid question in that we aren't talking now about our "walk" (works etc) but rather simple "belief", or acquired unbelief in this case. Well, here is a little of my take on that. I maintain that if we truly understand just what "salvation " really is, we will see that it is indeed secure, in spite of any thoughts to the contrary.

Sometimes I think that because of the ease in which we can become "saved", we then are open to the idea that maybe we can also lose that salvation because of some grievous reason. One thing that we should never do is cheapen the steadfastness of our salvation on account of how simple it is to become saved. The simplicity of our salvation is a testament to the incredible awesome thoroughness of the finished work of Christ.

Simply by "believing into Christ" we are granted all the fruit of the culmination of the work of Christ. That being, not only are our sins blotted out, but we are granted sonship in Christ. We become born of God and a member of the family of God. It is too incredible. By our simple act of belief, we are granted entrance. I don't think we have even scratched the surface on how awesome is the love of God, and His grace and mercy and wisdom in working out so great a salvation. Anyway, it is by our believing. Belief is simply the "means". Following belief, something glorious happens. Something is born of God. This new birth is not of man nor does it have anything to do with man. Yes, our belief is our part, but what follows has nothing to do with natural man. It is entirely of God and in God. Born of God.

If for some reason we were to come to a place where we decided that we were no longer believing and thus we come into a denial of Christ and His salvation, God might say something like "Well, you can unbelieve all you want, but it's too late. I have a say in this too. You have been born of God and you are now a son of God. I didn't go through all this trouble just so you could decide one day you don't believe any longer."

Now I know that sounds very simplistic, but I think it drives home the point. Suppose my son decided that he didn't want to be my son any longer. He could go around shouting out to the world that he is not my son any longer. Well, because he is born of me, and shares my very life blood, there is absolutely nothing he can do to alter his sonship. He is my son not by anything at all that he does, believes, wishes, etc.. He is my son base on another life. My life. He was born of me. Now if my own flesh son can do nothing to forfeit his sonship in me, we should never entertain the thought that we can somehow forfeit our sonship in Christ for any reason. It is as secure as Christ Himself. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if there were some issue on our part that would cause the termination of our sonship, I would maintain that we have a God who is not all righteous. Of course I do believe that God is all righteous.

There is of course much much more to say on this topic. I enjoy the fellowship.

konroh · Mar 28, 2015

He who believes has eternal life. Eternal life by very definition is eternal. It cannot be lost. If it could be lost it would not be eternal, it would be temporal.

Jesus doesn't say, "He who believes has eternal life that can be temporary."

michael56 · Mar 28, 2015

The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature Luke 8:14

I have found it interesting, that in the third example of the parable of the sower, Jesus does not say they lose their salvation, but rather they do not mature, or it is written as, ''the word is unfruitful'' in other Gospels.

I wonder if that may not apply to many, who accept Christ as their saviour, but allow themselves to often be distracted from the work God has called them to. Christ does not abandon them, for as Paul states, when we are unfaithful, he remains faithful for he cannot disown his own. I wonder rather, if when we do not continually follow the path set out for us, this brings us to much unhappiness until we better bow the knee. That is the price we often pay for our folly.

I understand this view may not be acceptable to some who wish to quote the literal letter and speak of condemnation if we do not almost perfectly follow the blueprint of the way, but I take the view, God does not abandon us so quickly-for which I am truly grateful

84Niner · Mar 28, 2015

michael56 said:

The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature Luke 8:14

I have found it interesting, that in the third example of the parable of the sower, Jesus does not say they lose their salvation, but rather they do not mature, or it is written as, ''the word is unfruitful'' in other Gospels.

I wonder if that may not apply to many, who accept Christ as their saviour, but allow themselves to often be distracted from the work God has called them to. Christ does not abandon them, for as Paul states, when we are unfaithful, he remains faithful for he cannot disown his own. I wonder rather, if when we do not continually follow the path set out for us, this brings us to much unhappiness until we better bow the knee. That is the price we often pay for our folly.

I understand this view may not be acceptable to some who wish to quote the literal letter and speak of condemnation if we do not almost perfectly follow the blueprint of the way, but I take the view, God does not abandon us so quickly-for which I am truly grateful

I agree. In fact I would say that those who go on in the Lord and reach some real maturity in Christ are in a small minority.

RickyZ · Mar 28, 2015

I hope you guys are right, seeing as my brother and his son were both absolute Jesus freaks at one time and now openly state that there is no God. But 2 Timothy 2:12b tells me differently about those who deny God.

Death in the family will take me away from you again for a while (hold your applause

). But feel free to continue the discussion!

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