What was the language spoken before Babel

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Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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I'm actually not 100% about the earlier chart, anyway, at least in terms of classification. Certainly the 'Middle' Semitic column on that chart is not actually Hebrew, but Phoenician, and is from where the later Semitic languages descend (as well as Greek, some proto Indo European languages as well, at least in terms of script). You could just as easily talk about it as ‘ middle Punic’ or ‘Middle Akkadian’ or ‘ middle Amorite’.


The proto-sinaitic script actually more probably descends from Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratics (the name is because the only samples we have of the first column in the original table come from the Sinai), and was probably the first attempt to transition from ideograms (picture of cat=cat) to a proper phoentic scripting system (The word phonetics comes from the Phenician, I think). I assume the third column under Ancient Semitic/Hebrew is probably actually the Canannite script, or perhaps Aramaic script. I haven’t checked.


Anyway, the main point is that the scripts after hieroglyphs were intended to move towards phonics rather than logograms, precisely because there is only so much you can say about life if most of your symbols are actually denoting objects and specific things like doors or water. Most of what survives, even into a relatively early language like Classical Hebrew or Punic, are the general shapes (though not all) and the basic phonics (though not all). You can even see this in the provided chart - some symbols change completely, some phonics change completely. In any case, it's also worth noting that quite a lot of the phonics and general shape of characters actually pass on into the Greek, for instance (and even in large chunks into our alphabet) but no one’s suggesting God spoke Greek at the beginning of time.


The logogrammatic meanings are more likely to be evident if you look at hieroglpyhs, or even something like the Ugaritic or early Akkadian cuniform.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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^ I also just want to stress with the above that hieroglyphic influence on Phoenician is only 'probable'. While there is a general consensus that Egypitian languages and Phoenician had some interaction, no one really knows how, why, and where, because basically our knowledge of any kind of language before the Proto-Sinaitic is zip, and even our knowledge of that is incomplete, and mostly based on backwards projection from Phoenician anyway.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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To put the word meanings next to the late Hebrew is an intellectually dishonest as putting them next to Latin, Greek or English. It only applies to early Hebrew, not the late, for sure.

The Bible was written in late Hebrew. The texts which have survived are all late Hebrew, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. While there is nothing wrong with the chart, if you put the letter meanings next to early Hebrew, it is merely something you grabbed off of Google.

Once again, I urge you, with your interest in Hebrew to actually learn the language, instead of dabbling with these rabbit trails. Hebrew is a wonderful language when used properly to read the Old Testament. Using meanings of letters simply does not apply to the Bible. If you became some kind of linguist, and read Ugarit and Sanskrit and Phoenician, etc, then learning the meanings of the pro-Hebrew might also have some value. There are scholars who learn the ancient languages and study them for language development.

This link takes you to a far more instructive chart of Biblical Hebrew, which is what you want to be studying. Not something that has no relevance to your study of the Old Testament.

http://hebrew4christians.com/alphabetchart.pdf

Or this one: (Of course, the vowel points are a whole different story, which you seem to have left out!)

View attachment 106373
Angela,

Most Seminaries do not teach the inherent pictoglyphic meanings of the letters in modern orthography; but if you learn Hebrew in a synagogue; they are still taught. There is NOTHING DISHONEST in using or understanding them. What is of questionable value is assigning them to individual phonemes within words.

The difference between a pictographic language and a phonetic language is that in a pictographic language each symbol represents one or more words; while in a phonetic language each symbol represents one or more sounds. If someone genuinely believes that a language can be simultaneously both phonetic and pictographic; that is not dishonest; it is just wrong.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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What I have not seen considered on the thread is the fact that Shem was contemporary with Abraham and Isaac; and was also contemporary with most of the ante-deluvian (pre-flood) patriarchs.

He could easily have passed the original language to Abraham and his lineage; since Shem was not among the scattered..
 
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Jan 25, 2015
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(This comment is a generalisation and if the shoe fits...)

I will tell you what, I would rather keep on believing that my God was able to leave a bit of mystery for us humans to uncover. I would also investigate His word with a humble hart searching for these treasures. I am happy for people that is so arrogant as to think they have it figured out. Good for you as you are enlightened but please leave room for us bottom dwellers to grow in God's Word.
 
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Tintin

Guest
Here is a link I found:

The Bible and Interpretation

Of course, you could get a Hebrew Lexicon and look up the names. I downloaded a PDF copy of Brown-Driver-Briggs which I can't seem to find on-line. But it is there if you search. And comprehensive! All 1185 pages of it!
Thank you, Angela! Is this the one?

Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon (BDB) - Biblical Dictionaries - Bible-Discovery Software

Also, are you familiar with this book? If so, is it worth reading? Thanks. :)

https://www.eisenbrauns.com/ECOM/_4BS1FFMPN.HTM
 
T

Tintin

Guest
What I have not seen considered on the thread is the fact that Shem was contemporary with Abraham and Isaac; and was also contemporary with most of the ante-deluvian (pre-flood) patriarchs.

He could easily have passed the original language to Abraham and his lineage; since Shem was not among the scattered..
Shem was contemporary with most of the pre-Flood patriarchs? Are you sure about that? Yes, he was contemporary with some, but certainly not most. Obviously he lived within the time-period of his two brothers, Ham and Japheth and his father, Noah and Noah's father, Lamech and Lamech's father, Methuselah.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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(This comment is a generalisation and if the shoe fits...)

I will tell you what, I would rather keep on believing that my God was able to leave a bit of mystery for us humans to uncover. I would also investigate His word with a humble hart searching for these treasures. I am happy for people that is so arrogant as to think they have it figured out. Good for you as you are enlightened but please leave room for us bottom dwellers to grow in God's Word.
Gandalf,

to which comment do you refer?
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Tintin

Guest
Hi Tintin

If you use e-sword you can also download the Hebrew bible and it is for free while Bible Discovery is free for a limited time.
I struggle to get my head around E-Sword. But thank you, my brother! I'll give it another go. :)
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Shem was contemporary with most of the pre-Flood patriarchs? Are you sure about that? Yes, he was contemporary with some, but certainly not most. Obviously he lived within the time-period of his two brothers, Ham and Japheth and his father, Noah and Noah's father, Lamech and Lamech's father, Methuselah.

I stand corrected!


Shem was contemporary with several antedeluvian patriarchs; at least one of whom was contemporary with Seth.

and could still have passed the original language to Abraham and his line. Thank you for pointing that out:)
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Gandalf,

to which comment do you refer?
Marc

When I read threads like this one I can see a split between people believing in the Hebrew text and people fearing the Hebrew text. We will always fear what we don't understand.

I really don't want to continue on this thread as I am not at the right space this morning to keep a calm head.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
Yes, it also took me some time but you get use to it :)
Cheers, that's good advice. I'm not researching this stuff as a matter of pride, I just find it incredibly fascinating. Genesis Chapter 1-11 are some of my most favourite parts of the Bible. :)
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Cheers, that's good advice. I'm not researching this stuff as a matter of pride, I just find it incredibly fascinating. Chapter 1-11 of Genesis are some of my most favourite parts of the Bible. :)
I am busy listening to a guy doing a Hebrew Bible study on Genesis and it is absolutely out of this world... but in Afrikaans :p
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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Gandalf,

Hebrew happens to be the language the OT was written in. God Himself caused it to be that way.

A hammer or a power saw can be dangerous if improperly used but need not be frightening.

Hebrew is a tool to enhance understanding. It is not necessary to get a sound understanding of the Bible; but if you have been given an inquisitive mind; and desire to look at the grammar and meaning before translation; it is very useful.

Like any other tool if you don't mishandle it it is not likely to hurt you.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Gandalf,

Hebrew happens to be the language the OT was written in. God Himself caused it to be that way.

A hammer or a power saw can be dangerous if improperly used but need not be frightening.

Hebrew is a tool to enhance understanding. It is not necessary to get a sound understanding of the Bible; but if you have been given an inquisitive mind; and desire to look at the grammar and meaning before translation; it is very useful.

Like any other tool if you don't mishandle it it is not likely to hurt you.
Agreed, thank you sir.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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Marc

When I read threads like this one I can see a split between people believing in the Hebrew text and people fearing the Hebrew text. We will always fear what we don't understand.

I really don't want to continue on this thread as I am not at the right space this morning to keep a calm head.
To be fair, it's not about fearing or not fearing the Hebrew text. :)

I note people have posted a couple of links and diagrams from hebrew4christians on this thread and the previous ones. I just want to point out that site also has a helpful page about avoiding problems with esoteric readings (which is what has been proposed in this and the other thread), with the main takeaway being this: make sure any secondary reading you take from the text is subservient to and in agreement with the main study the plain grammatical sense of the text. There is no meaning that does not find its mirror in the text itself.

I don't necessarily agree with everything on that site (kabbala has always seemed, if nothing else, extremely subjective), but I can't see how you can go wrong with the approach that the foundation of all study has to be the simple historical-grammatical approach, focused on author intent. When Jesus interprets the Scriptures, especially when arguing with the Pharisees, he always does it on the basis of what the text plainly says. This seems to be of primary importance to him, if not the only importance, when it comes to discussion of Scripture.

You are fair in saying that we should allow some level of mystery in the Scriptures, and not think that we have it all down and packed neatly into a box. I think that can be a helpful corrective. :) But by the same token, let's be careful to not devalue what precious silver God has plainly given us in the original languages and in our own tongues, in favour of shifting patterns and esoteric forms that may or may not be entirely of our own perspective.

Peace.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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