Sovereign will & Permissive Will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Matthew4Jesus

Senior Member
May 7, 2011
258
5
18
#1
In discussion with a family member about evil, she stated that there is the permissive will of God, meaning, God has allowed it despite not necessarily approving of it.

Now to me, this seems like absolute insanity and creates an unfathomable amount of logical contradictions in the bible.

For example, God's purpose for allowing someone to commit an evil act, in my eyes is to ultimately for his praise and to display his glory as Scripture says:

--Romans 3:5 ''But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath upon us?''

-- Romans 5:8 ''but God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.''

-- Romans 9:21-23 ''Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory''

Anyway, the issue I really must take up with this notion of a ''permissible will'' is the simple fact that, we know God is Holy, Good and he Hates sin and those who indulge in sin.

-- Psalm 5:5 ''The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.''

Therefore, if we say the reason for God allowing something that he hates and absolutely abhors is simple because of his permissible will? He allows it because he values our own choices and desires over his own will? He places a greater value on our total free-will, than he places the existence of evil?

Is this our holy, good, and just God of the scripture?

I would like to hear what else scripture has to say on this matter, as of course the truth for all of us is what's important here!

God Bless
 
Last edited:

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
113
#2
The distinction is a construct of Western Theological Hoopla. What we don't understand about God, we give fancy names to and hope it slips by unnoticed. God has only One Will...His.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#3
GOd created man with freewill and God allows/permits man to use that freewill for good or bad. God does not cause/force men to do things against man's own will.

1 Cor 16:7 "For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit."
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#4
In discussion with a family member about evil, she stated that there is the permissive will of God, meaning, God has allowed it despite not necessarily approving of it.
..........
I would like to hear what else scripture has to say on this matter, as of course the truth for all of us is what's important here! ...
yahweh permits everything that happens, or it would not happen.

sinners like to think he will permit them to live the way they live and they actually think that because he

hasn't ended the world yet he won't hold them accountable for their sin (i.e. they actually have been deceived into thinking that HE'S going to forgive them even if the trample under foot the BLOOD OF THE LAMB and CRUCIFY JESUS by the sin again and again and again(like the rcc does daily) )

yahweh says HE IS PATIENT (but not forever; HE puts an end to it one way or another, granting mercy to whom HE CHOOSES TO HAVE MERCY(so they stop sinning, repent, and are forgiven)
and hardening those whom he hardens(in their sin, allowing their hearts to continue unrepenting, right to death) ......

HIS PATIENCE IS GREAT, and his mercy and justice and plan and purpose is PERFECT.

He reschedules "TODAY" (look it up in the BIBLE) so that we have one more day to turn to HIM to hear HIS VOICE
and
to NOT turn away in rebellion..... until the day when HE has determined, when HE CHOOSES, and

He no longer allows it to go on.
 
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#5
members of the body of christ on earth, SLAVES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS< rejoice with JOY ETERNAL> in

always willingly and totally willingly and absolutely every fiber of their (our) BEING being brought SUBJECT TO JESUS

exactly as GOD'S WORD SAYS ALWAYS.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#6
True love would not exist if it was not for free will.

In other words, I think the best way to understand it is God created man with a free will with them being held accountable to their own actions. God did not directly create sin and evil. Man chose sin and evil. God would temporarily allow for their wrong actions or evil to exist temporarily so that true love can exist. For true love is when two parties both choose of their own free will to love one another. For if God just forced man to love Him, then that would not be "true love." God wanted us to choose Him so as to show that we truly do love Him. God wants us to trust and rely on Him in times of trials and tribulations. God wants us to walk by faith and believe His Word and believe that God is good. God wants us to build a relationship in Him. To walk by sight unseen and develope a love and peace that can only come from walking with the Lord. God wants to share all his goodness with us. But we have to want that, though. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve. For will a person love God or will they love themselves and their sin in this life? That is the big question. So God temporarily allows for the evil to exist in this world so as to gather more and more into his kingdom (with them repenting of their sins and turning to Him and His righteousness or good ways). God is love and in Him is no darkness at all. All the evil you see in this world is the result of man's choice and not God's choice. God only temporarily allows man's evil to exist so that God can gather more into His Kingdom before He returns and puts an end to all evil.
 
Last edited:
Apr 9, 2015
995
10
0
#7
GOd created man with freewill and God allows/permits man to use that freewill for good or bad. God does not cause/force men to do things against man's own will.

1 Cor 16:7 "For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit."
So the Thief on the Cross, he having a 'desire' to Know God and Come to Him and then make a decision out of his own free will..... for God.........------> he went out and 'did ' what he did , murder , steal, etc WHATEVER it was so that he was on the Cross next to Jesus.. so he could make a decision for Christ, out of his own free will? the thief on the cross, 'willed' himself up that cross so that he could be next to Jesus and make a choice or decision for 'God'.. whilst Jesus was Hanging next to him? righhhhhhhhhhht....
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#8
Important Note so that there is no confusion:

God is light in Him is no darkness at all (1 John 1:5). God is Holy and is not capable of directly creating evil, or doing evil, or taking any kind of pleasure in evil. God is the very embodiment of all that is good and loving. God created all things in the beginning for His good pleasure. The Lord our God merely allowed for the existence of evil to come into the universe thru free willed beings so as to give Him the glory, honor, and power.​



Everything Glorifies God and He Created All Things For His Good Pleasure:


Justification:
(Jesus was manifested to destroy the devil's works):
Jesus is our Savior and the Love of our Life:
For evil (i.e. the devil's kingdom) only exists because God wanted true love or beings who would choose to love Him of their own free will.




  • (a) Jesus is the author of our faith when we respond to the drawing of His grace; So Christ (God) saves us from our iniquity or wicked ways when we repent of our sins and accept Him; Being saved not on the basis of our righteousness but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.




  • (b) Jesus destroys the works of the devil in our old life by translating us from the dark kingdom of the devil into the glorious good kingdom of God.




  • (c) We are no longer a slave to sin and we are born again spiritually and are given a new heart by God with new desires to please the Lord.




  • (d) For where we once loved ourselves and sin, we now love Jesus and His good ways because He loved us so much to die in our place for our sins upon the cross. He had risen from the grave to give us a new love focused filled life in Him.




Sanctification:
(Jesus was manifested to destroy the devil's works):
Jesus is our Helper and Friend:
For evil (i.e. the devil's kingdom) might trip up a believer on occasion with sin; However, the Lord is merciful and good and helps a believer to get back up and to walk in His good ways. He is a friend and will listen to them and their struggle with desiring to overcoming sin.




  • (a) Jesus is also the perfecter of our faith whereby we allow Him to do the good work within us. We are not saved by works in and of themselves but true faith (or a good tree) will always prove itself to be true by allowing Spirit directed works (or good fruit) to flow within our life.




  • (b) We are happy to continue to live out our faith. For we know that without faith it is impossible to please Him; And whatever is not of faith is sin.




  • (c) If we slip up into sin (on occasion), we have an advocate named Jesus Christ whereby we can confess our sins and be cleansed of all unrighteousness.



  • (d) We are being perfected in being conformed to the image of Christ. We are glorifying God's righteousness thru our lives. For man was created in God's image and we are to conform to Christ's image, who is God. We can cease from sin by suffering in the flesh (1 Peter 4:1). For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24). For Jesus says, be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.




Glorification:
(Jesus was manifested to destroy the devil's works):
Jesus is our Sovereign Lord and Conquering King:
For evil (i.e. the devil's kingdom) is put under His feet and crushed once and for all. All evil will be eradicated and destroyed. It will be conquered.




  • (a) Jesus is finally the finisher of our faith and He will deliver us from this body of death in the resurrection (And by taking us to an incorruptible Kingdom of God).




  • (b) Jesus will deliver us from this sinful world (By taking us to an incorruptible Kingdom of God).




  • (c) Jesus will destroy all forms of darkness and sin (i.e. the devil's kingdom) whereby we will no longer be tempted. Good will win over evil in the End and God will be glorified in being the Victor. For one cannot be the Victor or a Conquerer without an enemy to be conquered. Now, does this mean that God created an adversary who would be greater than Him so as to be a true threat to Him personally? No, most certainly not. For God is sovereign over all His creation. What this means is that God allowed an adversary to exist so as to test or purify His people by faith; Whereby they would trust in Him to be their Victor and Conquerer. Only in this way did God create an enemy for Himself. An enemy that would try His people (i.e. His prized possession) so that they would trust in Him for all forms of Victory within their lives.



So what are the reason(s) for the existence of evil? (or):
How does evil glorify God?




  • (a) True love exists because of it.




  • (b) God's creation (Man) can truly value the Light by contrasting it with the Dark by how the Light (God) has helped them to overcome their darkness or sin.




  • (c) God and His goodness is able to conquer over that which is evil once and for all (Being the Lord and Victor over all things). God created an adversary so as to test His people so that they would trust in Him for all forms of victory within their lives.




Genesis 50:20
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."


Romans 8:28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
 
Last edited:
Apr 9, 2015
995
10
0
#9
Isaiah would tell you differently from the Word of God
------------------------------------------------------------------
I Form the Light, and Create Darkness: I Make Peace, and Create Evil: I the LORD do all these
things. Isaiah 45:7

therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

totally Sovereign over His Creation, everything INSIDE OF IT, including the Righteous and the Un Righteous...

If He wasnt, then that would make man 'like god'.. which many today , believe that... this generated by the craftines of the serpent and the sin of Un Belief!
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#10
Isaiah would tell you differently from the Word of God
------------------------------------------------------------------
I Form the Light, and Create Darkness: I Make Peace, and Create Evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

totally Sovereign over His Creation, everything INSIDE OF IT, including the Righteous and the Un Righteous...

If He wasnt, then that would make man 'like god'.. which many today , believe that... this generated by the craftines of the serpent and the sin of Un Belief!
Is that what Isaiah really says?

Well, lets look at
Isaiah 45:7.

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, you say that the word "evil" here is meant to be "evil" as we would understand that word today.

However, lets just look at the context of this passage without knowing what the word "evil" really means by leaving it blank. This is what it would look like:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create ______: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, lets say you were taking a test and you were asked to fill in the following based on the related information you were given above.

I would see that the opposite of light is darkness. For Isaiah 45:7 sets the standard of letting me know that God forms the light and the darkness. Light is in contrast or opposite to darkness. Okay, now that we have our structure of how this sentence is built, what is the opposite or contrast to Peace? For the next word has to contrast peace because we know Light contrasts darkness. Right? So what contrasts peace?

War, or calamity, or something that is not peaceful or calm. Does war mean something is evil? No. Soldiers can fight for the good cause of their country to eliminate that which is evil or bad in view of the interests of their nation. So the word "evil" here is in context to what is the opposite of peace. This is how one reads the context of something. You look at the surrounding words and let them determine what that word is saying. One does not look at the word at face value and try and force a meaning that does not fit within the sentence. For words can look and sound the same but they can have multiple meanings. Especially during the time of the 1600's when the KJV was being written (Which influenced some later versions in their translations).

For the Luke 14:26 tell us if we do not hate ourselves or our family, then we cannot be his disciples. Does this mean God is talking about "hate" as we understand that word today? No, of course not. Jesus said we are to pray and to do good towards our enemies.

Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may the Lord's love shine upon you.
 
Last edited:
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#11
1 John 1:5 says there is no darkness in God. So God cannot directly create evil. God is love. God is good. God created free willed beings who were responsible in making their own choice in choosing God or not.
 

Matthew4Jesus

Senior Member
May 7, 2011
258
5
18
#12
GOd created man with freewill and God allows/permits man to use that freewill for good or bad. God does not cause/force men to do things against man's own will.

1 Cor 16:7 "For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit."
What scripture could you give that supports this?

Are you saying that God would rather we had free-will than prevent all the evil in the world?
Proverbs 16:4-- ''The Lord has made everything for a purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble''
Amos 3:6-- ''Is a trumpet blown in the city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city unless the lord has done it?''
Isaiah 45:9-10-- ''Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who formed it, 'what are you making'?' or 'your work has no handles''? Woe to him who says to a father 'What are you begetting' or to a woman 'with what are you in labour?''

God is not the one who commits evil acts, whoever, he has ordained it.

If what you say is true SeaBass, would that not also mean that God allows all these multitudes of sins to occur because he values our free-will more than he hates and wants to prevent sin?

What scripture states that it is the will of God that man has his own total autonomy?

But say we have total free-will God would have known what atrocities we would commit against him, therefore in creating man with free-will God still ordains evil, otherwise he is not omniscient.

When the word permit is used in the scripture you quote, that is not an evil that has been permitted.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#13
For to say that God directly creates evil is to say that He is evil; And that is wrong.

For it was the devil that had sinned from the beginning.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. (1 John 3:8).

And the Son of God (Who is God Almighty in the flesh) was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#14
What scripture could you give that supports this?

Are you saying that God would rather we had free-will than prevent all the evil in the world?
Proverbs 16:4-- ''The Lord has made everything for a purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble''
Amos 3:6-- ''Is a trumpet blown in the city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city unless the lord has done it?''
Isaiah 45:9-10-- ''Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who formed it, 'what are you making'?' or 'your work has no handles''? Woe to him who says to a father 'What are you begetting' or to a woman 'with what are you in labour?''

God is not the one who commits evil acts, whoever, he has ordained it.

If what you say is true SeaBass, would that not also mean that God allows all these multitudes of sins to occur because he values our free-will more than he hates and wants to prevent sin?

What scripture states that it is the will of God that man has his own total autonomy?

But say we have total free-will God would have known what atrocities we would commit against him, therefore in creating man with free-will God still ordains evil, otherwise he is not omniscient.

When the word permit is used in the scripture you quote, that is not an evil that has been permitted.
Have you ever read the story of Job or the story of Joseph? In their trials of bad things happening to them, a greater good was being brought forth. For example: the devil worked in men to have the Lord crucfied. This is the worst kind of evil that you can possibly ever imagine and it happened to the Lord our God who is Holy and good. Yet, a greater good came out of such evil, though. God allowed man to be redeemed of his choice to choose that which was wrong and evil and be reconciled back to God. That is why Jesus Christ came. To save you from your sins. But it took a horrible and great evil to happen to Him in order for Him to save you, though. Because there was a price for man's sin against God. For no one is going to get away with evil. God will judge and put an end to all evil. God temporarily allowing evil to exist does not mean He approves of such evil. God can take man's evil and turn it against Him like He did with the story of Joseph. God overcomes evil with His good.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#15
For true love would not exist if it was not for the existence of evil. God wants true love from His creation (i.e. man). But evil will not last forever and God is just and good and will see all evil punished it's due time. God delaying the punishment of evil from our perspective might seem unjust but God is eternal and is outside of time. To God, the Judgment has already happened. So evil has already been judged and conquered according to God. Sin and evil is not winning the day. God has won. God has the victory. It's time you start believing that, my friend.

God is pure good and God is pure love.

And the devil and man are the one's who are responsible for evil.
 
Mar 12, 2014
6,433
29
0
#16
So the Thief on the Cross, he having a 'desire' to Know God and Come to Him and then make a decision out of his own free will..... for God.........------> he went out and 'did ' what he did , murder , steal, etc WHATEVER it was so that he was on the Cross next to Jesus.. so he could make a decision for Christ, out of his own free will? the thief on the cross, 'willed' himself up that cross so that he could be next to Jesus and make a choice or decision for 'God'.. whilst Jesus was Hanging next to him? righhhhhhhhhhht....

The thief of his own freewill chose to steal and was on the cross as a punishment/consequence for making that freewill choice. No one can read God's mind, but it could have been that God, armed with His foreknowledge, allowed/permitted this man to steal foreknowing this man would meet up with Christ when hung on his cross.


God does not predetermine all that men do, as some Calvinists falsely proclaim, for that would make God morally culpable for all the sin that takes place in the world.

Some things happen by chance:

Lk 10:31 "And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side."

Nothing happens in this world apart from God's permissive will yet God does not preordain/predetermine everything for man.

BY CHANCE, means this priest of his own freewill choose, at that particular time, to take that particular route (see Eccl 9:11 "time and chance") and God permitted it and did not preordain this priest to take that particular route at that particular time. If one wants to argue God preordained this priest to take this route at this time against his will, then it can be argued God preordained the other men, against their will, to rob and injure this man and left him to die. God then becomes morally culpable for this evil. Yet God has chose not to control every small event that happens but can use His permissive will in permitting or not permitting things that men's freewill chooses to do. It was not God's will this man be robbed (or the thief on the cross to steal) but God in His infinite wisdom and foreknowledge knows how things will play out down the road and will bring His will about by permitting or not permitting certain things to happen.
 
Last edited:
Apr 9, 2015
995
10
0
#17
For true love would not exist if it was not for the existence of evil. God wants true love from His creation (i.e. man). But evil will not last forever and God is just and good and will see all evil punished it's due time. God delaying the punishment of evil from our perspective might seem unjust but God is eternal and is outside of time. To God, the Judgment has already happened. So evil has already been judged and conquered according to God. Sin and evil is not winning the day. God has won. God has the victory. It's time you start believing that, my friend.


True Love exists, In a Person, and He demonstrated that by Giving Himself at the Bloody TRee, TRue Love, AGape Love, dying in place of the wicked wretched sinner, the hard hearted, Pharisee, the good man..... HE DIDNT HAVE TO DO THIS, but it Behooved Him to step out of Glory and into Time, which He created, Propitiation complete!, and then out of Time and Back Into Glory again... there isnt a man on this earth whose ever lived , nor to come, that CAN MATCH THAT LOVE, NOR HIS PERFECT WORK ON THE TREE, NONE! for He was Perfect in His Appeasement! Christ Crucified, ALL WHO HEAR HIS VOICE, follow Him... indeed!
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
6,307
1,097
113
#18
True love would not exist if it was not for free will.

In other words, I think the best way to understand it is God created man with a free will with them being held accountable to their own actions. God did not directly create sin and evil. Man chose sin and evil. God would temporarily allow for their wrong actions or evil to exist temporarily so that true love can exist. For true love is when two parties both choose of their own free will to love one another. For if God just forced man to love Him, then that would not be "true love." God wanted us to choose Him so as to show that we truly do love Him. God wants us to trust and rely on Him in times of trials and tribulations. God wants us to walk by faith and believe His Word and believe that God is good. God wants us to build a relationship in Him. To walk by sight unseen and develope a love and peace that can only come from walking with the Lord. God wants to share all his goodness with us. But we have to want that, though. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve. For will a person love God or will they love themselves and their sin in this life? That is the big question. So God temporarily allows for the evil to exist in this world so as to gather more and more into his kingdom (with them repenting of their sins and turning to Him and His righteousness or good ways). God is love and in Him is no darkness at all. All the evil you see in this world is the result of man's choice and not God's choice. God only temporarily allows man's evil to exist so that God can gather more into His Kingdom before He returns and puts an end to all evil.

I agree...and God is bound by His choice to have Love in our relationships exist, over the completely capable decision to make us robots, in that, anytime God or Satan suggests something it is we that have to make the choice to go that direction. Both Spirits are bidding for your attention in their own way, yet it has been placed by God in this arena of His choice, for the sake of a relationship of love with His children, that He cannot over- rule our dumb choices.

And the one that knows us best and loves us and is all knowing of all things... is crushed when we do not chose what He knows is the best for us. The things that will ultimately make us the happiest: Fulfill us.

We were designed to be in this relationship from before day one, now He just stays awake 24/7, for God never sleeps, and waits early in the room for us to enter in with Him so He can give you His blessings....but He has to wait on US to chose. His righteousness and choice for Love has dictated this.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
#19
GOd created man with freewill and God allows/permits man to use that freewill for good or bad. God does not cause/force men to do things against man's own will.

1 Cor 16:7 "For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit."
Ezekiel 36:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Uh-oh...
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
63
#20
As I understand it, the concept of God's permissive will deals with issues not specifically addressed in Scripture.

If I buy my child a dog or other pet; I am acting in God's permissive will because Scripture has neither told me to do so nor told me not to. The Lord is sovereign; and in His sovereignty has the right to forbid the purchase.

It is NEVER God's will, permissive or sovereign, that anyone does evil.