Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"

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oldhermit

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#41
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

View attachment 111865

I cut out the page, scanned it and taped it back good as new (almost)
The only thing Bauer Arndt and Gingrichdoes here is offer some passages that are used as a proof text for what he admits is a controversial argument. This does not mean they hold this view.
Here are the examples offered by Bauer Arndt and Gingrich
Matthew 12:41,
and Luke 11:32
Here is one argument I have been given on these two testa in the past. I am sorry, but I do not remember the source of the argument on this text: “The word εἰς communicates the 'result' of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word εἰς). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they had already believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins.”

My response is simply this. This misrepresents the use of the word εἰς altogether. The definition of the word itself defies any backward motion and cannot be translated as "because of" the preaching of Jonah, nor does any English translation I know of dare to translate it in such a fashion. No linguistic scholar is going to be this grossly irresponsible. The meaning of the word εἰς pushes the direction of the repentance forward – they repented toward the preaching of Jonah. Here the better rendering of εἰς would be "at the preaching of Jonah" which is perfectly acceptable and this is how it is translated in the more than twenty English translations I have examined, although a few of the paraphrased versions render it as "when Jonah spoke." But, what they all have in common is that NONE of them translate this as "because of the preaching of Jonah." I wonder why that is? If you want this verse to say 'because of' the preaching of Jonah the text would have to be written ὅτι τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰωνᾶ but that is not what he said. He said, εἰς τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰωνᾶ. We must construct the translation according to the definition of the words used. We cannot simply assign any definition to the language we want.

Romans 4:20
This is the same as the two previous texts. Here the better rendering of εἰς would be "he did not waver in unbelief" which perfectly agrees with the definition of εἰς and this is how it is translated in most English translations, although a few render it as "through unbelief" which I regard as highly questionable. But, what they all have in common is that NONE of them translate this as "because of unbelief." I wonder why that is?


The final text they offer for those who argue for the casual use is Matthew 3:11where John says, "I baptize you for repentance.
εἰς is used here the same way it is used in Acts 2:38 with forward movement and is rendered in most English translations as for or unto but NEVER as "because of repentance." The one translation that missed it altogether is the ISV which renders it "as evidence of repentance." This is not translating, this is interpretation.
 
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oldhermit

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#42
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

There are certain dispensationalists that would argue, AND I QUOTE (I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS MY VIEW) - Acts 2:38 is probably one of the most misunderstood verses in the Bible. Take time now to read Acts 2:22-40. In Acts 2:22, Peter was the speaker and he was addressing "ye men of Israel." No other group is mentioned. He told of Jesus' earthly ministry (vs 22) and pointed out that they crucified him (vs 23). In vs 24 he proclaimed the resurrection and then freely quoted Psalms 16:8-11 in verses 25-28. The "men and brethren" of vs 29 were Israelites, and Peter again proclaimed the resurrection, and added Jesus' exaltation, and quoted Psalm 110 as an explanation in verses 34 and 35. Now vs 36 again identifies his audience as "all the house of Israel." This was made clear. Jesus himself said: Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. In Acts 2:36-37, "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart." That "they" is JEWS not Gentiles. Then, in Acts 2:38, Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Those Pentecostal Jews were baptized in water to receive the Holy Ghost. And even though vs 39 is quoted to prove otherwise, that is not how one receives the Holy Ghost today. Verse 39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. The "you" is obviously Jews and the "your children" must be Jews, but what about "all that are afar off?" Peter quoted the Old Testament all through Acts 2 and he did again. Daniel 9:7a "O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off..." Those "afar off" are Jews too! The entire setting of Acts 2 is Jewish. If that doesn't clinch the time element, look at the last part of verse 40. "Save yourselves from this untoward generation." This untoward "generation" is Jewish. They were responsible for the crucifixion. They placed themselves under condemnation (Matthew 27:25.) A person today isn't saved "from this untoward generation." The time of "this" generation is LONG PASSED! This is NOT the day of Pentecost, everyone isn't a Jew whose specific generation crucified Christ, and the Lord is not dealing with the Israelites as a nation now (Matthew 21:43; Acts 10:34,35) as he was then. Even if a person was a full-blooded Jew today, he couldn't get back under those circumstances because they have passed! Acceptance into the Earthly Kingdom promised to Israel required faith and water baptism. However Israel rejected the Kingdom, even after the resurrection of their King - The Lord Jesus Christ. When they did, God set Israel (as a nation) aside and postponed that promised Kingdom. This is what Romans 11:11,12,15, & 25 is about. Rather than God sending the prophesied judgement of the tribulation upon them, He set that Kingdom program aside and began a NEW AGE which was never prophesied to come. It is referred to as "THE MYSTERY" and is called "THE AGE OF GRACE" - see Ephesians 3:1-11 and Colossians 1:24-27.



Have you ever heard this interpretation of Acts 2:38?
Yes I have, LOL. But could we please save this for another time. I seem to have enough on my plate just addressing the use of εἰς in verse 38. I would like to get into this however if we can do it another time.
 
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phil112

Guest
#43
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Those of you who claim water baptism is what cleanses us from sin, answer me this, please.
Why did Christ get baptized? He wasn't a sinner, and you can't say as an example, because if you are correct it cleanses our sins and seeing as He had none it wouldn't have accomplished the same thing.

Altho I appreciate good scholarly study, indeed, I refer to my small library often, the bible is not something that we must go to another man to have it explained. It is there for us, and if we study diligently, pray earnestly, and read carefully, we can understand it for the most part.
We aren't talking about Revelation here, this is not symbolic language, this is clear scripture that is being muddied unnecessarily.

There are many instances where folks were saved without baptism, so we must reconcile these scriptures. Salvation isn't one thing for me and another for you. If people got saved without being baptized, so can you and I.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#44
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Those of you who claim water baptism is what cleanses us from sin, answer me this, please.
Why did Christ get baptized?
He tells us in the text - "It behooves us to fulfill all righteousness." Baptism is an act of righteousness.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#45
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The only thing Bauer Arndt and Gingrichdoes here is offer some passages that are used as a proof text for what he admits is a controversial argument. This does not mean they hold this view.
Here are the examples offered by Bauer Arndt and Gingrich
Matthew 12:41,
and Luke 11:32
Here is one argument I have been given on these two testa in the past. I am sorry, but I do not remember the source of the argument on this text: “The word εἰς communicates the 'result' of an action. In this case it is said that the people of Nineveh “repented at the preaching of Jonah” (the word translated “at” is the same Greek word εἰς). Clearly, the meaning of this passage is that they repented “because of’” or “as the result of” Jonah’s preaching. In the same way, Acts 2:38 is indeed communicating the fact that they were to be baptized “as the result of” or “because” they had already believed and in doing so had already received forgiveness of their sins.”

My response is simply this. This misrepresents the use of the word εἰς altogether. The definition of the word itself defies any backward motion and cannot be translated as "because of" the preaching of Jonah, nor does any English translation I know of dare to translate it in such a fashion. No linguistic scholar is going to be this grossly irresponsible. The meaning of the word εἰς pushes the direction of the repentance forward – they repented toward the preaching of Jonah. Here the better rendering of εἰς would be "at the preaching of Jonah" which is perfectly acceptable and this is how it is translated in the more than twenty English translations I have examined, although a few of the paraphrased versions render it as "when Jonah spoke." But, what they all have in common is that NONE of them translate this as "because of the preaching of Jonah." I wonder why that is? If you want this verse to say 'because of' the preaching of Jonah the text would have to be written ὅτι τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰωνᾶ but that is not what he said. He said, εἰς τὸ κήρυγμα Ἰωνᾶ. We must construct the translation according to the definition of the words used. We cannot simply assign any definition to the language we want.

Romans 4:20
This is the same as the two previous texts. Here the better rendering of εἰς would be "he did not waver in unbelief" which perfectly agrees with the definition of εἰς and this is how it is translated in most English translations, although a few render it as "through unbelief" which I regard as highly questionable. But, what they all have in common is that NONE of them translate this as "because of unbelief." I wonder why that is?


The final text they offer for those who argue for the casual use is Matthew 3:11where John says, "I baptize you for repentance.
εἰς is used here the same way it is used in Acts 2:38 with forward movement and is rendered in most English translations as for or unto but NEVER as "because of repentance." The one translation that missed it altogether is the ISV which renders it "as evidence of repentance." This is not translating, this is interpretation.
Even if I concede the causal use of εἰς, (which I'm not sure I do); we agree that 'in light of' or 'in recognition of' is a legitimate use of εἰς, and I'm willing to go with that.
 
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BradC

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#46
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

I am asking a grammatical question from the selected text concerning the use of εἰς in this verse that was brought up earlier. Do you have anything to add on this?
It is the conclusion that you draw from the use of the word εἰς in relationship to the remission of sins. How you define that word and them connect it to the remission of sins makes baptism a condition to be fulfilled in order for the remission of sins to take place. Is that the meaning you believe the Greek text gives?
 
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Sep 16, 2014
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#47
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The Greek "aphesis" means cancellation of debt. The command to repent is meant to precede anything else towards cancellation of one's sins, but only if repenting of all sin, not just some of them. God showed through animal sacrifice that the blood covered all sins of the nation, and individually among partakers. The Law required Jesus to provide his own body and blood once for sin, though of no benefit to sinners who hold onto their sins, choosing sin above the righteousness of Christ.

Jesus began his public ministry Matthew 4:17 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And saying,
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Where does Jesus preach baptism in water?

John said this of Jesus: Matthew 3:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John's water baptism was to prepare people to repent. Jesus commanded repentance.


 

oldhermit

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#48
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Even if I concede the causal use of εἰς, (which I'm not sure I do); we agree that 'in light of' or 'in recognition of' is a legitimate use of εἰς, and I'm willing to go with that.
I could not agree with this as a translation of εἰς because I can fond no textual support for it. Perhaps a better way to ask this is, can this be a legitimate interpretation of εἰς but, even then you still have no textual evidence to support it. Both of these suggestion seem to give εἰς a backward motion. However this word is rendered in the English must agree with its usage as it is found elsewhere in scripture. I must always be given forward motion.
 
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oldhermit

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#49
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The use of 'for' as a translation of εἰς is I think a rather unfortunate choice of words to use because 'for' does have a casual meaning and can be used to demonstrate backward motion but εἰς cannot. A better word to translate εἰς would be "into." This respects the forward movement of εἰς.
 
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oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#50
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

The Greek "aphesis" means cancellation of debt. The command to repent is meant to precede anything else towards cancellation of one's sins, but only if repenting of all sin, not just some of them. God showed through animal sacrifice that the blood covered all sins of the nation, and individually among partakers. The Law required Jesus to provide his own body and blood once for sin, though of no benefit to sinners who hold onto their sins, choosing sin above the righteousness of Christ.

Jesus began his public ministry Matthew 4:17 (KJV) [SUP]17 [/SUP] From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]
Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And saying,
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Where does Jesus preach baptism in water?

John said this of Jesus: Matthew 3:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John's water baptism was to prepare people to repent. Jesus commanded repentance.

Yes, but John's baptism too was for the remission of sins. "And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins," Lk. 3:3. This is the same thing that Jesus said about the shedding of his blood in Matthew 26:28. "For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Surely no one could suggest this represents a backward motion.
 

oldhermit

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#51
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

It is the conclusion that you draw from the use of the word εἰς in relationship to the remission of sins. How you define that word and them connect it to the remission of sins makes baptism a condition to be fulfilled in order for the remission of sins to take place. Is that the meaning you believe the Greek text gives?
This is precisely how the sentence is constructed. Whether I agree with it or not is quite beside the point. One cannot allow himself the prerogative of reading this or any other text using one's soteriology or theology as a metric for determining meaning. The text must be allowed to supply the meaning and one must learn to subordinate ones' understanding to the grammar of the text rather than rendering the text subordinate to one's soteriology. This why there is so much confusion and disagreement among people regarding biblical truths. Let the text speak for itself.
 
C

CRC

Guest
#52
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Recognizing that Jesus provided a model so that we could follow his steps in serving God, we should endeavor to imitate his example. (1 Peter 2:21) Hebrews 10:7 tells us that Jesus’ attitude was: “Look! I am come . . . to do your will, O God.” Similarly, our love and appreciation for God should move us to dedicate our lives to him, to do his will whole-souled. Of course, we will still eat, sleep, care for and love our family, enjoy pleasant relaxation and in other ways share in the normal activities of life. But dedicating our lives to God means that his will and worship should be of primary importance, and that, no matter where we are or what we are doing, we will earnestly endeavor to apply God’s counsel and follow the example Jesus set.—Colossians 3:23, 24.
The Scriptures make clear that a person who dedicates his life to God should publicly manifest that by being baptized. Jesus told his followers:
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.”—Matthew 28:19, 20.
 
Jan 6, 2014
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#53
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

And Paul? was he a pseudo Christian?
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name. (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. (1Co 1:14-17)


If water baptism brought about forgiveness I doubt Paul would have spoken so lightly about it.
Romans 6 is how Paul saw baptism. Your quote from 1Cor has nothing to do with how important Paul considered baptism.
I never said baptism brought about forgiveness. According to Paul when we are baptized we enter into fellowship with the death of Christ (remission of sin). Or am I missing something?
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#54
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

I could not agree with this as a translation of εἰς because I can fond no textual support for it. Perhaps a better way to ask this is, can this be a legitimate interpretation of εἰς but, even then you still have no textual evidence to support it. Both of these suggestion seem to give εἰς a backward motion. However this word is rendered in the English must agree with its usage as it is found elsewhere in scripture. I must always be given forward motion.
Unless I misunderstood you, in your post #27, you seem to have acknowledged this as "correct".

Since you are usually consistent within your positions I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please clarify.

In my view acknowledgement as foundation for continuation is forward. Since 'A' is true, 'b' is now appropriste.

Since you are forgiven you should be baptized.
 
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oldhermit

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#55
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Unless I misunderstood you, in your post #27, you seem to have acknowledged this as "correct".

Since you are usually consistent within your positions I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt. Please clarify.

In my view acknowledgement as foundation for continuation is forward. Since 'A' is true, 'b' is now appropriste.

Since you are forgiven you should be baptized.
Perhaps you misunderstood what I said in post #27. Here is the post.

I seem to be unable access the Bauer Arndt and Gingrich Lexicon so perhaps you could cut and past this information from their Lexicon. I am afraid I would have to see this in some written study by Bauer Arndt and Gingrich be for I will believe this represents their views on the use of εἰς in the NT. I have known a number of men over the years who were masters of the language and a couple who where had their PhD's in NT Greek and none of them have ever been willing to go out on a limb to confirm the casual use of εἰς, not one of them. If it is possible for εἰς to have a casual meaning, that is a backward movement, why is it that it is never translated anywhere in the NT by any group of translators in this way. Of the 1774 times this word in used in the NT, I cannot fine a single instance where it is ever translated in a casual form. It is ALWAYS translated as having forward motion. Perhaps if you know of a text that translates it in this way you could share it with me.
I can see nothing in this post that would lead you to believe that I would agree with 'in light of' or 'in recognition of as a viable translation of
εἰς. The construction of the text does not present baptism as a recognition of something that has already occurred but as part of a process by which something is obtained. Forgiveness of sin is linked to two antecedents - Repentance and baptism. This text presents forgiveness then as resultant, not causal.





 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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#56
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Wallace is offering a personal soteriological position that stands contrary to the grammatical structure of the text. If εἰς points backward then baptism is in response to an already obtained forgiveness. If εἰς is directionally fixed in a forward position then the text presents forgiveness of sin as an result of baptism, no matter how one may think of this in connection with another passage. If Peter had wanted to infer backward action in immersion he could have simply chosen between three prepositions that would have satisfied that direction – ὅτι or perhaps even περὶ (about, concerning), he could have even used ὑπὲρ which in the accusative means above but in other usage it is sometimes translated 'because of', 'concerning,' or on behalf of, but Peter did not choose either of these terms. He specifically selected εἰς because of its singularly directional motion. Immersion into Jesus Christ then, is a transference of a person into the removal of sin. If you like, I can discuss the soteriological implications later. Right now all I am trying to do is establish the force of this verse from the point of the grammar. Truth lies in the grammatical structure of the text, not in one's interpretation of the text.
This sounds like a case of "he said, they said, you said." So who is to be believed? Not all Greek scholars agree with your particular interpretation of the grammatical structure of the text and in addition to the grammatical structure of the text, these other passages in Acts teach that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture or else we have a contradiction. Once again, that ultimately decides it for me. I refuse to negate these multiple clear passages in Scripture in order to accommodate one particular biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 that does not harmonize with these and many other passages in Scripture.
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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#57
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

I will get to these other passages later. Right now, we have not even come to any kind of an agreement on this verse yet. The first step in any exegetical exorcise is to establish what the grammatical structure reveals. Always begin with the grammar and then move to the textual comparisons.
How are we going to agree on what the grammatical structure reveals when not even all Greek scholars agree? Why must this one verse negate Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 and many other clear passages in Scripture that make it clear salvation is through faith, not works? (John 3:15,16,18; 6:29,40,47; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..
 

oldhermit

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#58
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

This sounds like a case of "he said, they said, you said." So who is to be believed? Not all Greek scholars agree with your particular interpretation of the grammatical structure of the text and in addition to the grammatical structure of the text, these other passages in Acts teach that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31). Scripture MUST harmonize with Scripture or else we have a contradiction. Once again, that ultimately decides it for me. I refuse to negate these multiple clear passages in Scripture in order to accommodate one particular biased interpretation of Acts 2:38 that does not harmonize with these and many other passages in Scripture.
The answer lies in how scholars have consistently translated these passages. Since there are some who argue for the casual use of εἰς and offer these passages as examples of the casual use then why is it that no scholar or group of scholars is willing to translate εἰς in this way. The only reason this debate even exists in because of Acts 2:38. This argument would have never surfaced except for the fact that some simply have not liked the construction of Acts 2:38. The simple truth is that εἰς does not have a causal use and there are no examples in scripture that will support this nor are there any scholar who have been willing to put his reputation as a scholar on the line by translating εἰς as 'because of,' not even those like Robetson who argue for the casual case.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#59
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

How are we going to agree on what the grammatical structure reveals when not even all Greek scholars agree? Why must this one verse negate Acts 3:19; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31 and many other clear passages in Scripture that make it clear salvation is through faith, not works? (John 3:15,16,18; 6:29,40,47; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:16; 3:22-30; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..
This one verse does not negate all of these other verses. It only calls into question some people's understanding of these other passages in connection with Acts 2:38.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

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#60
Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

acts 2: 38 does not order people to get baptised in order to recieve remission. The greek does not allow it. Peter told everyone to repent. he only told those who received remission of sin to be baptized. proven by the fact, the next verse states those who believed (because they repented) were baptized.