Wisdom Christology: A Thorough Explanation and Defense of Trinitarianism

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joint-heir

joint-heir

Banned
#21
Dec 21, 2009
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#21
livingbygrace said:
Amen. Nowhere in the NT does it say Jesus is God the Father, the Apostle Paul clearly says he is not
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JOHN 14:8-9...Philip saith unto HIM (JESUS), LORD, shew us the FATHER, and it sufficeth us.
JESUS saith unto him, HAVE I BEEN SO LONG TIME WITH YOU, AND YET HAST THOU NOT KNOWM ME, Philip? He that hath seen ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and HOW SAYEST THOU THEN, shew us the FATHER?



THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#22
Dec 19, 2009
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#22
joint-heir said:
JOHN 14:8-9...Philip saith unto HIM (JESUS), LORD, shew us the FATHER, and it sufficeth us.
JESUS saith unto him, HAVE I BEEN SO LONG TIME WITH YOU, AND YET HAST THOU NOT KNOWM ME, Philip? He that hath seen ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and HOW SAYEST THOU THEN, shew us the FATHER?



THIS IS AS GOOD AS IT GETS
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The Son is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of His being.

Heb1:3

Please show me a scripture where Jesus or any NT writer directly says. 'Jesus is God the Father. If you do I will immediately accept it

The Apostle Paul clearly and emphatically over five continuous verses said Jesus was not
 
B

BlackDove

Guest
#23
#23
livingbygrace said:
The Son is the radiance of God's glory, and the exact representation of His being.

Heb1:3

Please show me a scripture where Jesus or any NT writer directly says. 'Jesus is God the Father. If you do I will immediately accept it

The Apostle Paul clearly and emphatically over five continuous verses said Jesus was not
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Jesus did not claim to be God the Father, but He is equal to God.

If people would STOP AND ACTUALLY READ THE FIRST POST I MADE, then maybe we could get back on topic and find out that I'm willing to explain these things in a live setting in a way that you all probably have not heard before.

THAT'S WHY I MADE THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO ORGANIZE A LIVE BIBLE STUDY.

Seriously, in the most loving Christian way, are you guys just not paying attention at all? One troll spouts some closed minded opinion of his and now everyone's off on a tangent. The very title of this thread should show you that this isn't a thread for debate, but you know, MAYBE I HAVE A WORD TO SHARE THAT I FEEL IS VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR SPIRITUAL EDUCATION?

Please. For my sanity. Stay on topic. Stop arguing here.

Thank you.
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#24
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#24
BlackDove said:
Jesus did not claim to be God the Father, but He is equal to God.

If people would STOP AND ACTUALLY READ THE FIRST POST I MADE, then maybe we could get back on topic and find out that I'm willing to explain these things in a live setting in a way that you all probably have not heard before.

THAT'S WHY I MADE THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO ORGANIZE A LIVE BIBLE STUDY.

Seriously, in the most loving Christian way, are you guys just not paying attention at all? One troll spouts some closed minded opinion of his and now everyone's off on a tangent. The very title of this thread should show you that this isn't a thread for debate, but you know, MAYBE I HAVE A WORD TO SHARE THAT I FEEL IS VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR SPIRITUAL EDUCATION?

Please. For my sanity. Stay on topic. Stop arguing here.

Thank you.
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Well I appreciate you believe you can teach us on this subject, but my final authority is the Bible itself. I believe the answers are there to be found. I do not suggest any of us totally understands the working of the trinity.
Someone said to me it is an equal trinity, but with a heirarchy in that. At the least scritpurally that would have to be the case. We would have to ignore much plainly written scripture if we believed anything else.

T suggest Jesus is completely equal to God the Father would mean ignoring Jesus, his Father's and the Apostle Pauls words. I could never accept that, whatever arguments were put forward
 
B

BlackDove

Guest
#25
#25
livingbygrace said:
Well I appreciate you believe you can teach us on this subject, but my final authority is the Bible itself. I believe the answers are there to be found. I do not suggest any of us totally understands the working of the trinity.
Someone said to me it is an equal trinity, but with a heirarchy in that. At the least scritpurally that would have to be the case. We would have to ignore much plainly written scripture if we believed anything else.

T suggest Jesus is completely equal to God the Father would mean ignoring Jesus, his Father's and the Apostle Pauls words. I could never accept that, whatever arguments were put forward
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You seem to be implying that I'm not going to be teaching out of the Bible, or that somehow men and women cannot teach each other scripture or theology? If so I think that's kind of strange, since you yourself just stated that someone taught you a concept of the Trinity, as I am seeking to do. I'm merely trying to share a theological study that does, in fact, totally explain Trinitarianism, in a way that most people simply just don't know about. It's true, it's orthodox, and fits perfectly into the Nicean Creed. If you don't believe that's possible for me to explain something like that, I'll take your answer as a "no thanks" and we can move on.

Thanks for your input. : )
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#26
Dec 19, 2009
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#26
BlackDove said:
You seem to be implying that I'm not going to be teaching out of the Bible, or that somehow men and women cannot teach each other scripture or theology? If so I think that's kind of strange, since you yourself just stated that someone taught you a concept of the Trinity, as I am seeking to do. I'm merely trying to share a theological study that does, in fact, totally explain Trinitarianism, in a way that most people simply just don't know about. It's true, it's orthodox, and fits perfectly into the Nicean Creed. If you don't believe that's possible for me to explain something like that, I'll take your answer as a "no thanks" and we can move on.

Thanks for your input. : )
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No-one taught me concerning the Trinity, they put their opinion forward. My opinion is simply that according to what is written in the Bible it is not possible for Jesus to be completely equal with His Father. I have heard of the Nicean creed, but if it said that Jesus was completely equal with His Father in my opinion it is wrong. No man has the right to go against what the Bible clearly and emphatically states. And if man thinks he has a revelation of God's word, or has used his mind and reasoning to come to a contrary belief than is clearly stated in the Bible, he is wrong. I would stake my life on that
 
B

BlackDove

Guest
#28
#28
But yeah, I think I'm gonna kiss this thread goodbye. I'll throw the study out there gorilla-style, and if anyone takes it, great. If not, I guess I'll have to take it to the forums here.
 
joint-heir

joint-heir

Banned
#29
Dec 21, 2009
538
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#29
livingbygrace said:
Well I appreciate you believe you can teach us on this subject, but my final authority is the Bible itself. I believe the answers are there to be found. I do not suggest any of us totally understands the working of the trinity.
Someone said to me it is an equal trinity, but with a heirarchy in that. At the least scritpurally that would have to be the case. We would have to ignore much plainly written scripture if we believed anything else.

T suggest Jesus is completely equal to God the Father would mean ignoring Jesus, his Father's and the Apostle Pauls words. I could never accept that, whatever arguments were put forward
Click to expand...

1 JOHN 5:6-7...JOHN clearly shows us that JESUS on earth is SPIRIT-WATER-BLOOD
but in heaven JESUS is FATHER-WORD-HOLY GHOST and these 3 are ONE
SAME AS
PAUL WAS STATING IN
COLOSSIANS 2:9...in JESUS is the COMPLETE GODHEAD (FATHER-WORD-HOLY GHOST)
AND IN
COLOSSIANS 1:15-17...JESUS is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD and CREATOR of ALL THINGS for JESUS CREATED ALL THINGS FOR HIM AND BY HIM

CLEARLY BOTH JOHN AND PAUL
SHOWS US WHO JESUS REALLY IS..........

GOD IS A HOLY SPIRIT
WHICH IS THE WORD
THAT WRAPPED HIMSELF IN FLESH
FOR OUR SALVATION

THIS IS THE BEAUTY OF THE SIMPLICITY
OF WHO GOD IS
AND YET
WE SPEND EONS
BATTLING
TO COMPLICATE GOD
 
wattie

wattie

Senior Member
#30
Feb 24, 2009
3,014
1,019
113
New Zealand
#30
The trouble I have with one interpretation of 3 seperate beings... is if we see Father Son and Holy Spirit in heaven.. that polytheism pretty much.. because each on is equally God. All possess the ultimate divine qualities. So I believe in one being expressing Himself in three ways. Like our body is one yet has mind body and spirit.

This is supported in scripture by Jesus' references to the Father and the way they do things together.. like the Father giving eternal life and Jesus giving eternal life.. and the Holy Spirit sealing a saved person for eternity.. these are all the same thing.

Also when you study out Jesus' name and the way He refers to Himself.. He basically claims to be the national Jewish God.. which goes back ot the Old Testament of the Father talking about Himself. (Eg I AM the AM)

So Jesus is the very expression of the Father.. not Son as in seperate, subordinate being.. but son as in image, representation, incarnation.. like a mirror image.

If Jesus is God in human flesh.. the Father is God.. how can they be unequal?

Anyway.. on with the study for the op :)
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#31
Dec 19, 2009
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#31
BlackDove said:
Then why do we worship Him?
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For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. Phil3:3

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. 1Cor3:19

Man's intelligence and knowledge can only be a stumbling block to the things of God. God is Spirit, the Bible is a spiritual book, and God breathed. It is with the Holy Spirit we need to learn. We can have no confidence in the flesh and that includes our human reasoning.
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#32
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
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#32
livingbygrace said:
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. Phil3:3

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. 1Cor3:19

Man's intelligence and knowledge can only be a stumbling block to the things of God. God is Spirit, the Bible is a spiritual book, and God breathed. It is with the Holy Spirit we need to learn. We can have no confidence in the flesh and that includes our human reasoning.
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Why do we worship Jesus? He is the only begotten Son of the only true God, he died for all our sins. He died to make us free. That is rnough reason for me to worship him
 
B

BlackDove

Guest
#33
#33
livingbygrace said:
Why do we worship Jesus? He is the only begotten Son of the only true God, he died for all our sins. He died to make us free. That is rnough reason for me to worship him
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But if He's not equal to God, then He's below God, and therefore we shouldn't worship Him! The only way we could justify worshiping Him is if He was ontologically equal to God.

I agree that the wisdom of the world is foolishness, but what about the wisdom God gives us? I don't think that is bad at all, ; )
Jam 1:5
2Ch 9:23
Ezr 7:25
Dan 2:23

And look, now I'm caught up in the debate.

/Stops
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#34
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#34
joint-heir said:
1 JOHN 5:6-7...JOHN clearly shows us that JESUS on earth is SPIRIT-WATER-BLOOD
but in heaven JESUS is FATHER-WORD-HOLY GHOST and these 3 are ONE
SAME AS
PAUL WAS STATING IN
COLOSSIANS 2:9...in JESUS is the COMPLETE GODHEAD (FATHER-WORD-HOLY GHOST)
AND IN
COLOSSIANS 1:15-17...JESUS is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD and CREATOR of ALL THINGS for JESUS CREATED ALL THINGS FOR HIM AND BY HIM

CLEARLY BOTH JOHN AND PAUL
SHOWS US WHO JESUS REALLY IS..........

GOD IS A HOLY SPIRIT
WHICH IS THE WORD
THAT WRAPPED HIMSELF IN FLESH
FOR OUR SALVATION

THIS IS THE BEAUTY OF THE SIMPLICITY
OF WHO GOD IS
AND YET
WE SPEND EONS
BATTLING
TO COMPLICATE GOD
Click to expand...
Yes Jesus said. 'He and the Father are one.

But

That all of them may be one Fatherjust as you are in me and I am in you may they also be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.
I have given them the glory you gave me, that they may be one as we are one. John17:21&22

So how can I be in you and you be in me? Only in the Spirit. It is not possible any other way. That is how Jesus and His Father are one.

That they may be one AS we are one. How can you and I be as one? We cannot physically be one person, again, we can only be one in the Spirit. T

That they may be one, AS we are one.

So Jesus is not saying he is God the Father.

Paul said Jesus would be subject to the Father.

Jesus plain words.
My Father who has given them to me is greater than all. John10:29

If you loved me you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John14:28

I will stand on the plain words of the Bible.
 
S

sunshine_debbie

Guest
#35
#35
I would be willing to attend. If it will be when you indicated. 8pm PST correct?

Debbie
 
L

livingbygrace

Banned
#36
Dec 19, 2009
2,723
7
0
#36
BlackDove said:
But if He's not equal to God, then He's below God, and therefore we shouldn't worship Him! The only way we could justify worshiping Him is if He was ontologically equal to God.

I agree that the wisdom of the world is foolishness, but what about the wisdom God gives us? I don't think that is bad at all, ; )
Jam 1:5
2Ch 9:23
Ezr 7:25
Dan 2:23

And look, now I'm caught up in the debate.

/Stops
Click to expand...
God's wisdom is not man's wisdom, it comes from the Spirit in my opinion, and the Holy Spirit would never contradict what is plainly written in the Bible, that would be impossible
 
B

BlackDove

Guest
#37
#37
livingbygrace said:
God's wisdom is not man's wisdom, it comes from the Spirit in my opinion, and the Holy Spirit would never contradict what is plainly written in the Bible, that would be impossible
Click to expand...
Case and point. : )

sunshine_debbie said:
I would be willing to attend. If it will be when you indicated. 8pm PST correct?

Debbie
Click to expand...
That is correct Debbie, thank you! If I have to change the time or something, I'll PM those attending and let them know.
 
G

Graybeard

Guest
#38
#38
BlackDove said:
Jesus did not claim to be God the Father, but He is equal to God.

If people would STOP AND ACTUALLY READ THE FIRST POST I MADE, then maybe we could get back on topic and find out that I'm willing to explain these things in a live setting in a way that you all probably have not heard before.

THAT'S WHY I MADE THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE, TO ORGANIZE A LIVE BIBLE STUDY.

Seriously, in the most loving Christian way, are you guys just not paying attention at all? One troll spouts some closed minded opinion of his and now everyone's off on a tangent. The very title of this thread should show you that this isn't a thread for debate, but you know, MAYBE I HAVE A WORD TO SHARE THAT I FEEL IS VERY IMPORTANT TO YOUR SPIRITUAL EDUCATION?

Please. For my sanity. Stay on topic. Stop arguing here.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
:D...don't waste your time trying to tell people to stay on topic...IT WILL NOT HAPPEN...believe me, I had a thread in another forum where I posted a question to get some advise and it spiraled out of control so much so that I unsubscribed because it was futile pleading with people to have some respect toward the topic of the thread. FOLKS JUST HAVE TO GET THEIR OPINIONS ACROSS NO MATTER WHAT!
 
J

jesus_be4_religion

Guest
#39
#39
I would definitely come later and check out the posts.
 
L

Lad

Guest
#40
#40
black dove i truly feel sorry for you lol, i know how it feels to post a topic and next minute youve got a debate on your hands... anyway, i wouldnt be able to make the 'live study' if you ever get round to doing it, but i would LOVE to hear what you have to say so email me [email protected]
 
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