Rich and Famous Pastors

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
O

oldthennew

Guest
There is a difference between wealth obtained through deceit, and wealth because of God's blessing through ministering in His Name.

We should be careful to distinguish between the 2 before lumping all wealthy ministers into 1 category.
================================
amen, KohenMatt,

for many, many years hub and I 'free-will-donated' our hard-earned-money to, - let me put it this way,-
we could make the pile of envelopes into a 3-4"pile, and we felt so good about ourselves, in a very
naïve way,,,,,because we felt that we were giving 'according to God's Will'.

much later, we began to READ about the ones that we were 'contributing to' and how they were USING our
meager funds to 'finance' their own 'personal' lusts/desires'.

so, we HAD TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE WISDOM OF THIS WORLD - like the famous CARNY said,
'there's a sucker born every minute'.

WE NO LONGER FALL INTO THIS CATAGORY - for we tell you a Truth, God hates, God loathes, God despises
those that USE His Name for MONETARY GAIN.........
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
To those who criticize
Mark 14:3-9King James Version (KJV)[SUP]3 [/SUP]And being in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, as he sat at meat, there came a woman having an alabaster box of ointment of spikenard very precious; and she brake the box, and poured it on his head.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]She hath done what she could: she is come aforehand to anoint my body to the burying.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Does God love Jesus more than us?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
2,955
113
But we hear testimonies everywhere of people who repented and found God thru these people. How do we account for that. Are they donkeys being used by God or the devil has sipped in into their ministry?
I knew someone back in the 1980's who got saved at an Amway rally. It took him a while to realize he was in a marketing scam, and a cult. He left when he realized the OTHER gospel they were preaching.

Yes, he got saved! But he read his Bible and realized that most of what they were teaching was false.

Same with the WoF teachers. If they actually throw a few Bible verses in with their false gospel, people are going to get saved. That is all there is to it! The Word of God does not return void.

What I worry about is people without discernment, who come to Christ, and then fall hook, line and sinker for the lies, the need to give away all their money, so the televangelists can get rich, and the simply bad doctrine they preach.

Like "Jesus died and went to hell. Then he was born again in hell, making him the first born again believer."

"For the most part Joyce Meyer preaches a positive, biblical message that is of great value to many people. We applaud her desire to be biblical, to point women to godly submission and humility, to trusting God, being loving, to have value based in what Christ has done for us, etc. These are all good. However, there are some very significant errors that need to be addressed. Some of them are so bad that she is outside of biblical orthodoxy and must be considered a false teacher. Let's take a look at what Joyce Meyer has said.


  • Jesus stopped being the Son of God: "He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin."(http://storage.carm.org/joycemeyer/joyce-meyer-Jesus-became-sin-stopped-being-son-of-God.mp3)
    • Response: This is heresy. Jesus did not ever stop becoming the son of God. Essentially what she is saying is that Jesus stopped being divine, the eternal son, second person of the Trinity. This is an attack on the very nature of Christ and it is a dangerous false teaching. Joyce Meyer needs to repent and retract this statement. There is no place in Scripture that says Jesus stopped being the son of God. She's adding to the word of God and placing in the hearts and minds of listeners false doctrine.
  • Jesus was born again: "The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again," (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neKsa_74w7k&feature=related)
    • Response: This is just plain wrong. Being born again means to be saved from the wrath of God for a person's sins (Eph. 2:1-3), to have a new birth (John 3:3), and to be regenerated (2 Cor. 5:17). Mrs. Meyer is simply wrong biblically. Why does she teach this? It can only be because she has bought into many of the errors of the Positive Confession movement where it is sometimes said that Jesus lost his divine nature, went to hell, finished the atonement in hell, and was born again! This is a serious error since it implies that Jesus needed to be changed...
  • Jesus paid for our sins in hell: "He became our sacrifice and died on the cross. He did not stay dead. He was in the grave three days. During that time he entered hell, where you and I deserve to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there.” (The most important decision you'll ever make, by Joyce Meyer, second printing, may 1993, page 35)
    • Response: This is blatantly wrong. Jesus did not pay the price of our redemption in hell. He paid the price on the cross. It was finished on the cross when he said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). Also, consider the following verses:
    • Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
    • Col. 2:14, "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
    • 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
  • Jesus went to hell in our place and was tormented: "Jesus paid on the cross and went to hell in my place. Then as God had promised, on the third day Jesus rose from the dead. The scene in the spirit realm went something like this: God rose up from his throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless son of God, 'let him go.' Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus. On earth his grave where they had buried him was filled with light as the power of God filled his body. He was resurrected from the dead -- the first born again man." (The most important decision you'll ever make, by Joyce Meyer, second printing, may 1993, page 36)
    • Response: Where does she get this completely fictitious dialogue between God and the demon powers? It is made up, not founded in scripture, and mistakenly assumes that Jesus went to hell, the place of torment and suffering after he died on the cross. The Bible does not teach any such thing. However, it does say that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth (Eph. 4:9). This can mean that Jesus was physically buried, or that Jesus went to Hades to inform those who had already died about who he was and what he did on the cross, or it can be referring to his incarnation as is contrasted with his ascending into heaven (Eph. 4:10). But there is simply no reason to believe that Jesus suffered in hell and finished the atonement there. See response to Quote 1.
  • If you don't believe Jesus went to hell, you cannot be saved: "His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserve to go… There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth." (The most important decision you'll ever make, by Joyce Meyer, second printing, may 1993, page 37)
    1. Response: This is an amazingly bad statement on her part. She is saying that you cannot be saved from your sins unless you believe that Jesus went to the hell where we deserve to go. This is a modification of the gospel message that saves, as is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4 that states it is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Nowhere in scripture are we told to believe that Jesus suffered for us in hell or that he went there, where we deserve to go. This is very wrong and is heretical.
  • We are called little gods: "I was listening to a set of tapes by one man and he explained it like this..this kind of gets the point across...he said why do people have such a fit about God calling his creation, his creation, his man not his whole creation, but his man, little gods? If he's God what's he going to call them but the God kind? I mean if you as a human being have a baby you call it a human kind. If if [sic] cattle has another cattle they call it cattle kind. I mean what is God supposed to call 'em? Doesn't the Bible say we are created in his image? Now you understand I am not saying you are god with a capital G. That is not the issue here so don't go trying to stone me or yell blasphemy at me." "The Bible says right here John 10:34...'and Jesus answered is it not written in your law I say we are gods.' So men are called god's by the law..."(Joyce Meyer). (www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrP3OLCH9GI&feature=related)
    • Response: In this clip she goes on to quote John 10:34 where Jesus says to the Pharisees "you are gods," which is a quote from Psalm 82:6, which is an imprecatory Psalm of condemnation for the unrighteous judges. Psalm 82:7 says, nevertheless you will die like men. She then turned to Psalm 82and went through it. The video stopped so I do not know what she would have said about the next, all important verse.
  • Joyce Meyer said she is not a sinner: "I am not poor. I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I were and if I still was then Jesus died in vain. I'm going to tell you something folks. I didn't stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn't a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that's heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I am righteous and I can't be righteous and be a sinner at the same time." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dmHJdM63hk)
    • Response: Mrs. Meyer needs a lesson in basic Bible. 1 John 1:8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Notice that John the apostle says "we." He is including himself with sinners. Also, Paul said in Rom. 7:19-20,24, "For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Is Joyce Meyer better in Christian character than John and Paul? I think not. Mrs. Meyer fails to recognize her own sinfulness, and so mistakenly denies her own sinfulness. I can only conclude that this false teaching comes from pride because it certainly isn't biblical.
  • The host of hell were literally on Jesus and were laughing: "They were having the biggest party that had ever been had. They had my Jesus in the floor and they were standing on his back jumping up and down laughing. And he had become sin. Don't you think that God was pacing, wanting to put a stop to what was going on? All the host of hell were upon him. Upon him. Up on him. The angels were in agony. All the creation is groaning. All the host of hell was upon him. Up on him. They got on him. They got him down in the floor and got on him and they were laughing and mocking. Ha ha ha ha. You trusted God and look where you ended up. You thought he'd save you and get you off that cross. He didn't, ha ha ha." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwNfOaxIcOMhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwNfOaxIcOM)
    • Response: Where did she get this - in the sacred Book of Joycemeyeronomy? It is certainly not in the Bible, and yet she has no problem teaching it as an authoritative truth. Does she not know that the Bible says not to exceed what is written (1 Cor. 4:6)? Yet, she has done exactly this. She is in grave error and has violated God's word that says that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and finished the atonement on the cross (John 19:30) - not in hell at the hands of demons! There is no way demons were literally standing 'on' Jesus. Meyer is in gross error!
  • Joyce Meyer gets revelation knowledge: “The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not reallythat is why you have got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I am telling you. I have got to just trust God that he is putting it into your spirit like he put it into mine.” (http://storage.carm.org/audio/joycemeyer/joyce-meyer-revelation-knowledge.mp3)
    • Response: Revelation knowledge? Is she on par with the apostles who received revelation knowledge from God himself? Or how about the Old Testament prophets? Does she, like them, also receive revelation knowledge from God? If so, how would we know if it were true or not? The answer is simple: we test what she says against Scripture, and it is obvious that she is getting a lot of things from somewhere else that contradict the word of God.
-------------
On 11/29/2011, CARM called the Joyce Meyer Ministries in Mo., and spoke to a man who directed us to the website, contact info, and how to submit an email. We told him about CARM and the issues that we wanted to find out regarding her teachings. He again pointed us to the website and we were told that someone would contact us. At the website we submitted this email to them via their form at Media Relations Inquiry | Joyce Meyer Ministries on 11/29/2011.
I'm Rev. Matt Slick, the president of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, carm.org. CARM is a very large and popular apologetics site (1.3 million monthly page views). I'm doing research on Joyce Meyer and her teachings and have serious concerns about some of the things she has taught. Instead of writing articles based on information from years ago, I would very much like to submit a list of questions to her (and/or interview her) regarding Christian theology, soteriology, and christology to find out what her present views are. I can submit a list of questions so as to get the most current teachings she has in these areas. The information would then be used on the CARM.org website, radio show, and books. I want accurate information so as to not misrepresent Mrs. Meyer in anyway. Thank you for your time and I look forward to your response. Rev. Matt Slick, M.Div. President, carm.org.
We have yet to hear back from them."
https://carm.org/joyce-meyer

I'm not picking on Joyce Meyer as she is but an example of these heretical doctrines the WoF movement teaches. It is a shocking and horrible example of extending teaching far beyond what is written in the Bible, to imaginative and sincerely wrong doctrine.

If someone gets saved because of these false teachers, well, God used a donkey to talk to Balaam, didn't he? But the next step for these converts must be to get out of this anti-Christian cult and read the Bible and find out the lies these WoF teachers are pushing.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
2,955
113
Yet, you have your group that you listen to, do you not? Of course you do... none of us can honestly say otherwise. And you go right along with the things they say, do you not? How is it that only THEY preach truth, while those who understand God differently are "false" teachers?
It really is quite simple, Willie. You read the Bible, and you test it against what these false teachers are saying. Since you said in another post you don't believe in the inspiration of the Bible, I guess that test is out for you. You can believe any made up doctrine, just because some TV preacher who makes lots of money fleecing the sheep says it is true.

Read my posts up above about how false and unbiblical the doctrine the WoF teachers preach.

Who knows, maybe it will convince you that the Bible is true, and these liars and false teachers are not!
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
It really is quite simple, Willie. You read the Bible, and you test it against what these false teachers are saying. Since you said in another post you don't believe in the inspiration of the Bible, I guess that test is out for you. You can believe any made up doctrine, just because some TV preacher who makes lots of money fleecing the sheep says it is true.

Read my posts up above about how false and unbiblical the doctrine the WoF teachers preach.

Who knows, maybe it will convince you that the Bible is true, and these liars and false teachers are not!
Please show me where I said that. I won't try to converse with you if you are going to try and invent things I supposedly said. I think you will find that I said the Bible is not to be taken as authoritative. Some things in it ARE authoritative, but to try to make every word found between its covers an "authority" we have to follow as a law is a misuse of the book.
 
E

ember

Guest
Spell check does not work if you type the correct word and then after posting it uses the other.

Like I said previously I would type "are" in my sentence then for some reason some times after hitting post it says "our" instead.
well, on my phone, that is just what it does...just sayin...I don't use it here
 
P

popeye

Guest
Here a video to watch, if you don't like reading long posts.. It could be edited, I agree, but her words convict her. She is a false teacher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFG7cXOLiQQ
I remember way back 'when',Jerry Falwell came up with a notion that there was another race of humans at the creation of the world.(Genesis alluds to this)

I was not an adherant of this new "revelation",but Fucia Picket,and some others latched on to it.

It was Kent Hovind that blew the lid off of it. It had to do with Adam,Jesus,and the original sin.


I NEVER,EVER THOUGHT of Falwell ,or the others,as a heretics,but Hovind called them that.

I remember Jesus' words ".........leave them alone.If they are not against us they are for us"

I have never heard any WOF preacher say that "Jesus was the 1st born again person" nor do I agree if they did.
But it shows you the length some will go to,and the amount of time they will waste,attacking the hated charismatics.

Are you guys as concerned with Baptist heretical doctrines???
Where are these vids and witch hunters on the other side???
UH,no,we don't have time or the heart to attack the brethren.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
Angela5,

it is obvious that our Father is working mightily in your life, God Bless you Sweetheart,
and may others glean what you have shared and learned the hard-way.
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
I remember way back 'when',Jerry Falwell came up with a notion that there was another race of humans at the creation of the world.(Genesis alluds to this)

I was not an adherant of this new "revelation",but Fucia Picket,and some others latched on to it.

It was Kent Hovind that blew the lid off of it. It had to do with Adam,Jesus,and the original sin.


I NEVER,EVER THOUGHT of Falwell ,or the others,as a heretics,but Hovind called them that.

I remember Jesus' words ".........leave them alone.If they are not against us they are for us"

I have never heard any WOF preacher say that "Jesus was the 1st born again person" nor do I agree if they did.
But it shows you the length some will go to,and the amount of time they will waste,attacking the hated charismatics.

Are you guys as concerned with Baptist heretical doctrines???
Where are these vids and witch hunters on the other side???
UH,no,we don't have time or the heart to attack the brethren.
-----------------------------------------------

as we walk, so we learn...everyone at their own pace, as our Father would have it...''

may we all Love our brothers and sisters, as they walk their own walk of obedience and submission
to the Only Lord and Master of us all, Jesus Christ, Saviour........of mankind...................
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
I remember way back 'when',Jerry Falwell came up with a notion that there was another race of humans at the creation of the world.(Genesis alluds to this)

I was not an adherant of this new "revelation",but Fucia Picket,and some others latched on to it.

It was Kent Hovind that blew the lid off of it. It had to do with Adam,Jesus,and the original sin.


I NEVER,EVER THOUGHT of Falwell ,or the others,as a heretics,but Hovind called them that.

I remember Jesus' words ".........leave them alone.If they are not against us they are for us"

I have never heard any WOF preacher say that "Jesus was the 1st born again person" nor do I agree if they did.
But it shows you the length some will go to,and the amount of time they will waste,attacking the hated charismatics.

Are you guys as concerned with Baptist heretical doctrines???
Where are these vids and witch hunters on the other side???
UH,no,we don't have time or the heart to attack the brethren.
I appreciate the entire sentiment. I do want to ask what you take this scripture to mean in conjunction to the statement I made bold.

Colossians 1:18King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
 

Yet

Banned
Jan 4, 2014
3,756
69
0
If you listen to all of Osteens comments, you come away with a distorted gospel. He said he was in India and said those people love God.
About homosexuals, he can't say they won't make heaven.

All religions he fails to condemn. He claims that he just doesn't know! Oh really? I'm now doubting his salvation!!

He told King that he stays away from words such as sin and condemnation.

So What he is doing is making all sinners very comfortable in their sin. Another gospel indeed!

Not to mention the prosperity gospel he propagates.
 
K

KennethC

Guest
Yet, you have your group that you listen to, do you not? Of course you do... none of us can honestly say otherwise. And you go right along with the things they say, do you not? How is it that only THEY preach truth, while those who understand God differently are "false" teachers?

Actually no I don't have a group that I listen to, and even Perry Stone who I said I like listening to I test his words by the bible as well. I do not take any man's words as full truth as I test all by the word of God like we should all do.

Perry Stone for one likes to preach on the end times a lot and he gets more in depth then most preachers I have heard by using OT and NT scriptures together to show how they align with one another. However he is a pre-tribe rapture believer and I am not.

So you see I don't say only they preach truth as I test everybody who I either watch on TV, in the churches, or even books I read to see what aligns and what doesn't.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,400
113
But are they even preaching the Gospel of Christ?
AMEN and I would have to add....the times I have witnessed their charades there have been no biblical message of salvation come from them...I have seen one even go as far as saying that he would not say Muslims are lost and or worship a different God than the one that the bible teaches.....that is not the gospel..nor something that a man who understands the gospel would say.....!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
2,955
113
I appreciate the entire sentiment. I do want to ask what you take this scripture to mean in conjunction to the statement I made bold.

Colossians 1:18King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
There is a vast difference between Jesus being firstborn from the dead - meaning that he was the first one resurrected after his finished work on the cross, and being born again as his followers are to be.

Different words. Jesus was God. He did not need to be born again. His purpose was to die on the cross for our sins. Not in some made up scenario in hell, as the WoF teachers describe.

Words have meaning. And saying Jesus was born again is not in Scripture, and it twists the meaning of Col 1:18 and pulls it out of context.

"[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, [SUP]22 [/SUP]he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, " Col. 1:15-22
Looking more closely at Col 1:15

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" Col. 1:15 ESV

"ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως," Col. 1:15 Greek

πρωτότοκος or prototokos means "first born" The word emphasizes the pre-existance and uniqueness of Christ as well as His superiority over creation. This term does not indicate that Christ was a creation or a created being.

On "Born Again":

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:6-7 ESV

"τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς σάρξ ἐστιν, καὶ τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος πνεῦμά ἐστιν.μὴ θαυμάσῃς ὅτι εἶπόν σοι Δεῖ ὑμᾶς γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν." John 3:6-7 Greek

γεγεννημένον or gegennaenon, the first two instances mean "born," and is in the perfect passive tense. The above two verses mean:

"beget, give birth to, produce." Both are in the perfect tense, which conveys that which has been born and presently comes before us in a new light. This shows the necessity of a new birth in order to become children of God.

γεννηθῆναι or gevvathenai is the perfect passive participle and has the same root above and also means born. When paired with ἄνωθεν (anothen) it means "From above, a new beginning, again, anew). So born again!

So completely different words, in Col 1:15, and John 3:6-7. Completely different meanings.

This is why a teacher of the Word needs to know Greek. One WoF teacher started this lie, (Hagin? Copeland?) and the others swallowed it whole, just like the TV audience that watches these false teachers. Teachers are held to a higher standard than other Christians.

"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." James 3:1 ESV

This is why I am so careful to exegete the text, read the meaning in both historical context and Biblical context, as well as really looking carefully at the words, the grammar and how they fit together.

This is why God instructs us to be discerning about how the Word of God is used. Twisting of Scriptures, saying one word means something totally different, because they don't understand the Greek or Hebrew is how false doctrines and heresies start.

Jesus was NOT born again, and no where in the Bible does it say that!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
2,955
113
Please show me where I said that. I won't try to converse with you if you are going to try and invent things I supposedly said. I think you will find that I said the Bible is not to be taken as authoritative. Some things in it ARE authoritative, but to try to make every word found between its covers an "authority" we have to follow as a law is a misuse of the book.
Nope! Not going back through all your posts to find it. This one will do just fine!

"SOME THINGS are authoritative."

This is how you come to have so many false doctrines, like universalism and no hell. Because you admit the Bible only counts in SOME things. The Bible does count in everything. Yes, you have to take it contextually, but that does not mean throwing out the parts you don't like, when they are universal principals.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
There is a vast difference between Jesus being firstborn from the dead - meaning that he was the first one resurrected after his finished work on the cross, and being born again as his followers are to be.

Different words. Jesus was God. He did not need to be born again. His purpose was to die on the cross for our sins. Not in some made up scenario in hell, as the WoF teachers describe.

Words have meaning. And saying Jesus was born again is not in Scripture, and it twists the meaning of Col 1:18 and pulls it out of context.

"[SUP]15 [/SUP]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, [SUP]22 [/SUP]he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, " Col. 1:15-22
Looking more closely at Col 1:15

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation" Col. 1:15 ESV

"ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως," Col. 1:15 Greek

πρωτότοκος or prototokos means "first born" The word emphasizes the pre-existance and uniqueness of Christ as well as His superiority over creation. This term does not indicate that Christ was a creation or a created being.

On "Born Again":

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:6-7 ESV

"τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τῆς σαρκὸς σάρξ ἐστιν, καὶ τὸ γεγεννημένον ἐκ τοῦ πνεύματος πνεῦμά ἐστιν.μὴ θαυμάσῃς ὅτι εἶπόν σοι Δεῖ ὑμᾶς γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν." John 3:6-7 Greek

γεγεννημένον or gegennaenon, the first two instances mean "born," and is in the perfect passive tense. The above two verses mean:

"beget, give birth to, produce." Both are in the perfect tense, which conveys that which has been born and presently comes before us in a new light. This shows the necessity of a new birth in order to become children of God.

γεννηθῆναι or gevvathenai is the perfect passive participle and has the same root above and also means born. When paired with ἄνωθεν (anothen) it means "From above, a new beginning, again, anew). So born again!

So completely different words, in Col 1:15, and John 3:6-7. Completely different meanings.

This is why a teacher of the Word needs to know Greek. One WoF teacher started this lie, (Hagin? Copeland?) and the others swallowed it whole, just like the TV audience that watches these false teachers. Teachers are held to a higher standard than other Christians.

"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." James 3:1 ESV

This is why I am so careful to exegete the text, read the meaning in both historical context and Biblical context, as well as really looking carefully at the words, the grammar and how they fit together.

This is why God instructs us to be discerning about how the Word of God is used. Twisting of Scriptures, saying one word means something totally different, because they don't understand the Greek or Hebrew is how false doctrines and heresies start.

Jesus was NOT born again, and no where in the Bible does it say that!
OK, but I didn't quote Colossians 1:15. I quoted Colossians 1:18 speaking of his being the first born from the dead.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
Nope! Not going back through all your posts to find it. This one will do just fine!

"SOME THINGS are authoritative."

This is how you come to have so many false doctrines, like universalism and no hell. Because you admit the Bible only counts in SOME things. The Bible does count in everything. Yes, you have to take it contextually, but that does not mean throwing out the parts you don't like, when they are universal principals.
And you might want to learn not to try to "quote" things people never said. I have noticed that you tend to go nuts after seeing one word, without actually reading full posts.

Universalism? I said Jesus died for everyone. And the Bible says the same thing. But not all people will accept Him and that Salvation. Again, something the Bible states.

No Hell? Hardly. I said I do not believe "hell" to be the eternal burning in a literal lake of fire you believe in. Again, if you want to use the only story of hell in the Bible, (Which I believe was Jesus speaking factiously because of the adopted belief in a Hell the exiles brought back with them.), you have a fairly casual conversation being carried on between a man in this "Hell" and Abraham. Not exactly anywhere near the scene "Hell brokers" like to depict. Yes, I believe there will be punishment, but I can't accept this never-ending stuff. "Punishment" has the purpose of correction and restoration to right thinking or acting......... IF the one being punished ever comes to their senses. If they don't.... then, yeah, it certainly COULD last forever.

And you can't seriously think I cannot show you hundreds of things written in the Bible that are NOT laws we are to follow.
 
Last edited:

Jenizona

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2015
629
28
0
I can't accept this never-ending stuff. "Punishment" has the purpose of correction and restoration to right thinking or acting......... IF the one being punished ever comes to their senses. If they don't.... then, yeah, it certainly COULD last forever.
Isn't that what Catholics believe, more or less?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,784
2,955
113
OK, but I didn't quote Colossians 1:15. I quoted Colossians 1:18 speaking of his being the first born from the dead.
You are absolutely right! I did look at the wrong but supporting verses. But let us look at Col. 1:18, and you will find it says exactly the same thing as Col. 1:15

"And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent." Col. 1:18

"καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν ἡ κεφαλὴ τοῦ σώματος τῆς ἐκκλησίας· ὅς ἐστιν ἀρχή, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν, ἵνα γένηται ἐν πᾶσιν αὐτὸς πρωτεύων," Col. 1:18

πρωτότοκος or prototokos is a present active participle which means first place, to be first. You can easily see it is the same word used in Col 1:15 πρωτότοκος although that one was in the perfect tense.

But totally unrelated to "born again" as found in John 3:7 γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν, which is the word for "born again."

Sorry for getting the wrong verse, but it all comes out the same.

"First born" does NOT means the same thing as "born again."