Rich and Famous Pastors

[popeye]

You are still missing the question. I understand that you are saying that "firstborn" is not the same as "born again".

I understand that here you say firstborn is to be first.
πρωτότοκος or prototokos is a present active participle which means first place, to be first. You can easily see it is the same word used in Col 1:15 πρωτότοκος although that one was in the perfect tense.

What I'm asking about is "from the dead", as in first from the dead. It doesn't matter that firstborn doesn't mean born again. It seems to be saying that Jesus is the first from the dead which would be essentially the same thing.


I'm not saying Jesus went to Hell. I don't have scripture to support that right now. There is however scriptures that can't be overlooked when looking into this subject.

1. Jesus cried out on the cross " My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

2. Moses lifted up the brass serpent in the wilderness which was a figure of Jesus on the cross. Jesus even said so when he said he must be lifted up just like Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness. Serpent representing sin.

3. Then there's II Cor. 5:21, that says that Jesus is made sin for us so that we might be made righteousness in him.

Yes,all good points. Out of angela's box. Those ministers being lampooned are not novices. They know the word.

.....and they do have a point.

I am wondering how old those clips are in angela's vid. The vids look old to me.

 

[Patnubay]

I gotta be honest ,I don't know any of them personally, so I really can't comment on their lifestyle. This thread has a lot of very vague assumptions about people's personal wealth, but as far as I know, no one has seen their tax statements, or a statement of how much they themselves (the preachers) give charitably.

And if, for example, I did have their personal earning's statements in front of me, could see their charitable giving (or lack thereof), and the entire financial statement of their ministry, as well as images of all these "mansions" they are supposedly living in, do you know what my response would be? Probably, "Praise God, that's awesome!" It's between Him and them, and I really don't begrudge anyone their success! I guess that's the big difference between me and a few of you that are posting. I have no problem whatsoever with these folks being wealthy, if they truly are. We need more people like them (My ideal vocation would be to be a wealthy missionary!)!

Furthermore, the assertion (which I've read more than once in this thread) is that these people should somehow be feeding the hungry or solving the problems of poverty, single-handed. I know Joyce Meyer's ministries do a great deal of good with the impoverished around the world, but this doesn't seem to satisfy you. I'm not sure that anything WOULD satisfy folks who think this way, since the thought process seems to be something like, "As long as there is one hungry person in the world, no preacher should make a profit!" This is ludicrous, and a fallacy of logic. Not to mention, logistically impossible.

I really didn't think it was worth mentioning, but since it keeps coming up, I'm going to point it out. To me, it seems to show a lack of understanding about how the world works, and how ministry works. So there you have it!

I hear you. Thanks.

 

[Patnubay]

I'm not picking on Joyce Meyer as she is but an example of these heretical doctrines the WoF movement teaches. It is a shocking and horrible example of extending teaching far beyond what is written in the Bible, to imaginative and sincerely wrong doctrine.

If someone gets saved because of these false teachers, well, God used a donkey to talk to Balaam, didn't he? But the next step for these converts must be to get out of this anti-Christian cult and read the Bible and find out the lies these WoF teachers are pushing.

This is a must read comment. Thanks, Angela53510

 

[Angela53510]

Yes,all good points. Out of angela's box. Those ministers being lampooned are not novices. They know the word.

.....and they do have a point.

I am wondering how old those clips are in angela's vid. The vids look old to me.

I agree, the videos look old. But if you had read the article I posted from CARM, they actually sent Joyce Meyer an email, saying they would like to clarify if things had changed, for the article. They received no reply.

So if they are not willing to reply, saying Joyce Meyer's doctrine had changed, then probably it hasn't.

These preachers do not know the Word. They just know some stock phrases pulled out of context. If they spent time in the original languages, they would see how deceived they are. And hopefully they would repent of the evil they have done to the Body of Christ, and make amends. I haven't heard of that happening to any WoF teachers, because they presume to know the Word, and not knowiing it, they make huge doctrinal errors, that lead the sheep astray.

 

[Eva1218]

As Christians we must be so very Thankful and Grateful for what GOD has done for us. To be given such a great Gift called discernment. It must be used at its full potential. We know that there are many who chose to use their Gifts, talents and Calling for GOD and or for selfish gain. Considering no one is perfect and the flesh is weak we must always keep our mind and heart on GOD! Knowing we are but a vapor, how shall we present ourselves in our daily walk with the LORD. We must always have a heart of True Repentance!

I have heard many a one be truly upset that the people of GOD have and have in abundance. Which I find strange. I feel that it is not the riches, wealth nor the fame. What I examine is the Fruit of the Spirit. GOD gives Good Gifts to HIS children. It rains on the just as well as the unjust. The Bible speaks on satan offering things that are not even his, but one must worship him. But the true character of a person will expose who they truly serve. Be it GOD or satan.

Many times these television evangelist may start off with good intentions but they have allowed the flesh to taste the ohhs and ahhs of those who follow their teachings. This is a very dangerous place for GOD shares HIS GLORY with no one. So even though we may come across someone who teaches GOD's Word with great authority we are to give all Praises to GOD and not man! We must spread the Gospel with humility. For it is GOD speaking through the person.

GOD is so Very Awesome and knows that satan tries to mimic HIM. GOD tells us to try the spirit. Observe the fruit whether it be of HIM or not. Yes, satan portrays himself as an angel of light, but understand his true self will always come forth.

Yes many will serve GOD with a heart for him. Some will for the things of this world and be puffed up with pride and others will find themselves straddling the fence lukewarm. One can either focus on what others are doing are fight the Good fight of Faith and Press toward the Mark. Time is so very crucial as a Body of CHRIST I Plead that we put our attention on those who truly have a heart for GOD. Share who you enjoy hearing preach the True Word of GOD.

I really enjoy Charles Stanley for I like a great Teaching rather than a great preaching though I do enjoy a preaching as well just prefer teaching.

Blessings!!!!!!!

 

[LanceA]

I understand some of you HATE WoF people. What I would like to see is actually naming ministers you disagree with because there are some being lumped in with the WoF crowd who aren't WoF. People aren't even listening to the sermons these ministers preach, they are just saying "He is WoF, he's a fraud." It is really easy to just put someone in a name and discredit them with not even listening to them. I'm not WoF but there are some ministers, whom are called WoF, that I listen to and I have yet found anything they have said or written that contradicts the bible. Believe me I question everything a minister says and confirm it with scripture.

 

[Willie-T]

I don't see how you can say that. If physical death was the only penalty for sinning then we wouldn't need salvation. The penalty for sin was separation from God, spiritual death. If it were only physical death then we would all be spiritually alive and wouldn't need salvation, we would simply go to Heaven as soon as we died physically.

We tend to view things in terms of the "afterlife". Much of what Jesus died to give us is, right now, in effect as we live our Earthly lives. The verse in Romans, "There is NOW no condemnation..." is super important to grasp while we are still alive. Why?

Because condemnation (shame, guilt, a low view of ourselves, etc.) is one of the primary tools (weapons formed against us) Ha Satan uses against us. Another, "Why?". To do one thing, and one thing only. To make us feel unworthy to be around God. We have even gone so far as to incorporate the idea of "being separated from God" or "out of fellowship", directly into the heart of our "religion". Many of us have been taught (a Satanic teaching, actually) to believe that we move in and out of fellowship with God... despite the fact that we accurately "say" that we are "in" Jesus. But the unlimited "belief" really isn't there. Many of the things Paul said reflect this attitude of how we "think" or "assume" or to use a kjv Biblical word, "esteem" a certain position in our relationship with God. Often a position that is not true, but we let ourselves be convinced it is. (You'll find this internal thinking in those verses where Paul uses the phrase, "in our minds.")

If the evil one can keep us from approaching God, then he has defeated what God wants... us to be WITH Him. Even the last few lines of the Bible end with God's invitation to "COME."

To lose this is true "Spiritual" death.

 

[shotgunner]

We tend to view things in terms of the "afterlife". Much of what Jesus died to give us is, right now, in effect as we live our Earthly lives. The verse in Romans, "There is NOW no condemnation..." is super important to grasp while we are still alive. Why?

Because condemnation (shame, guilt, a low view of ourselves, etc.) is one of the primary tools (weapons formed against us) Ha Satan uses against us. Another, "Why?". To do one thing, and one thing only. To make us feel unworthy to be around God. We have even gone so far as to incorporate the idea of "being separated from God" or "out of fellowship", directly into the heart of our "religion". Many of us have been taught (a Satanic teaching, actually) to believe that we move in and out of fellowship with God... despite the fact that we accurately "say" that we are "in" Jesus. But the unlimited "belief" really isn't there. Many of the things Paul said reflect this attitude of how we "think" or "assume" or to use a kjv Biblical word, "esteem" a certain position in our relationship with God. Often a position that is not true, but we let ourselves be convinced it is. (You'll find this internal thinking in those verses where Paul uses the phrase, "in our minds.")

If the evil one can keep us from approaching God, then he has defeated what God wants... us to be WITH Him. Even the last few lines of the Bible end with God's invitation to "COME."

To lose this is true "Spiritual" death.

Willie, I believe I could agree with all that, at least in the way I took it. That still however doesn't change the fact that sin destroyed that relationship with God. Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. The way I see it, there was more penalty for sin than just physical death. To have that relationship restored, we must be born again, by which we become one with Jesus. In Him we are sinless because we are one with him. In Him we are perfect before God because He is perfect before God.

Look at it like this. The penalty for sin was both physical and spiritual death. If Jesus didn't pay that price for us on the cross, than we still owe the debt. I don't think it gets any simpler than that. Where the discussion should be, if there's any to be had, is how he paid it. Even that however isn't a salvation issue, and really shouldn't draw the vitriol that every thread here seems to bring out in people of opposing views.

 

[WoundedWarrior]

I'm gonna unfollow this thread people -- no problems, just want to focus elsewhere.
PM me if you need anything.

And remember to smile!

 

[KennethC]

Willie, I believe I could agree with all that, at least in the way I took it. That still however doesn't change the fact that sin destroyed that relationship with God. Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. The way I see it, there was more penalty for sin than just physical death. To have that relationship restored, we must be born again, by which we become one with Jesus. In Him we are sinless because we are one with him. In Him we are perfect before God because He is perfect before God.

Look at it like this. The penalty for sin was both physical and spiritual death. If Jesus didn't pay that price for us on the cross, than we still owe the debt. I don't think it gets any simpler than that. Where the discussion should be, if there's any to be had, is how he paid it. Even that however isn't a salvation issue, and really shouldn't draw the vitriol that every thread here seems to bring out in people of opposing views.

You are right in these three underlined sentences that Jesus paid the price for the dept owed for our sins and reconcile us to God. However the issue that I see now days in some teaching is they just leave it at that, or they say believe only, believe only, but they do not say what that belief consists of and if you try to mention what it consists of the "scream" works based salvation.

But Lord Jesus said we must repent of our sins, be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others, and walk in love.
All of these are also confirmed by the Apostles in the bible, even though some teachings will say they aren't to do away with part of them or change them to not be needed for salvation and they are only speaking on rewards when there is no such mention of that.

 

[shotgunner]

You are right in these three underlined sentences that Jesus paid the price for the dept owed for our sins and reconcile us to God. However the issue that I see now days in some teaching is they just leave it at that, or they say believe only, believe only, but they do not say what that belief consists of and if you try to mention what it consists of the "scream" works based salvation.

But Lord Jesus said we must repent of our sins, be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others, and walk in love.
All of these are also confirmed by the Apostles in the bible, even though some teachings will say they aren't to do away with part of them or change them to not be needed for salvation and they are only speaking on rewards when there is no such mention of that.

Kenneth, we agree on a lot of things and disagree on some things. I really appreciate that you can separate the two and treat me like a brother in Christ.

Our difference here is that I see our works, which must be there if salvation has truly taken place, as a result of our salvation rather than a part of it. In a way it is a part because works can't be separated from a true believer. However, grace dictates that works is not a part, as in a contributing factor to my salvation, but only a result, that is always present in true faith.

 

[Willie-T]

Willie, I believe I could agree with all that, at least in the way I took it. That still however doesn't change the fact that sin destroyed that relationship with God. Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. The way I see it, there was more penalty for sin than just physical death. To have that relationship restored, we must be born again, by which we become one with Jesus. In Him we are sinless because we are one with him. In Him we are perfect before God because He is perfect before God.

Look at it like this. The penalty for sin was both physical and spiritual death. If Jesus didn't pay that price for us on the cross, than we still owe the debt. I don't think it gets any simpler than that. Where the discussion should be, if there's any to be had, is how he paid it. Even that however isn't a salvation issue, and really shouldn't draw the vitriol that every thread here seems to bring out in people of opposing views.

We have to remember that we needn't be concerned with "Spiritual" death. It doesn't exist for us if we continue to choose to remain "in" Christ. (and some say, even if we DON'T choose to... I don't know about that) And Adam did not make a choice to abandon his understanding of, nor belief in, God. He simply failed to totally trust God, and do only what He said. We tend to want to make what Adam did to be something dirty and evil and horrendous. It wasn't. He simply ate a different fruit than He was given permission to eat. He listened to another voice, thus doubting God. Yet, he and Eve hid themselves from God (separated themselves from God).... Why? Because of an internal "feeling" of guilt and shame. (This comes with sinning) Notice that God did not separate Himself from them. (So, they really were NOT separated from God.... just afraid to approach Him) He actually stayed exactly the same, and even came looking for them, calling for them.............. just like He is still calling in those last few lines in the Bible. But we hide. We cling to whatever it is that we refuse to surrender, and SEPARATE OURSELVES from God's presence.... still, He keeps on calling through it all.

Adam and Even never experienced any "spiritual" death. They still knew God. They even continued to speak with Him. They even continued this outside the garden. Even Cain talked with God AFTER he had sinned by killing his brother. This "spiritual death" thing is a myth we have made up. Are we APART from God as unbelievers? Yes. We are "hiding". I mean, we couldn't even come to God (become believers) if He wasn't still with us, calling. The "separation" is in our minds. We are choosing at that time to believe, within our minds, in something other than God. And that keeps us from approaching the very God who is continuing to call to us.

WE stay away from God due to an accepted feeling of condemnation. He does not separate Himself from us.

 

[shotgunner]

We have to remember that we needn't be concerned with "Spiritual" death. It doesn't exist for us if we continue to choose to remain "in" Christ. (and some say, even if we DON'T choose to... I don't know about that) And Adam did not make a choice to abandon his understanding of, nor belief in, God. He simply failed to totally trust God, and do only what He said. We tend to want to make what Adam did to be something dirty and evil and horrendous. It wasn't. He simply ate a different fruit than He was given permission to eat. He listened to another voice, thus doubting God. Yet, he and Eve hid themselves from God (separated themselves from God).... Why? Because of an internal "feeling" of guilt and shame. (This comes with sinning) Notice that God did not separate Himself from them. (So, they really were NOT separated from God.... just afraid to approach Him) He actually stayed exactly the same, and even came looking for them, calling for them.............. just like He is still calling in those last few lines in the Bible. But we hide. We cling to whatever it is that we refuse to surrender, and SEPARATE OURSELVES from God's presence.... still, He keeps on calling through it all.

Adam and Even never experienced any "spiritual" death. They still knew God. They even continued to speak with Him. They even continued this outside the garden. Even Cain talked with God AFTER he had sinned by killing his brother. This "spiritual death" thing is a myth we have made up. Are we APART from God as unbelievers? Yes. We are "hiding". I mean, we couldn't even come to God (become believers) if He wasn't still with us, calling. The "separation" is in our minds. We are choosing at that time to believe, within our minds, in something other than God. And that keeps us from approaching the very God who is continuing to call to us.

WE stay away from God due to an accepted feeling of condemnation. He does not separate Himself from us.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one Willie. If were as simple as God calling us to come back to him, and all we need is to answer his call, then Jesus paid an awesome price for nothing.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this though, and I really appreciate the tone of your posts.

 

[Willie-T]

I'll have to disagree with you on this one Willie. If were as simple as God calling us to come back to him, and all we need is to answer his call, then Jesus paid an awesome price for nothing.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this though, and I really appreciate the tone of your posts.

Good grief! I never said anything NEAR that. Of course Jesus made all this possible.... but it is US continuing the belief in "separation" being something God put into effect. He is right there, calling, waiting. All we have to do is move toward Him.... BECAUSE Jesus paved the way for us.

Note that Adam and Eve were given this opportunity long before Jesus appeared on the scene. Do you think they are separated from God in a Hell because they did not profess belief in Jesus? GRACE is a part of God, and was extended to millions before Christ. Abraham didn't accept Christ.

Jesus is for US because of what WE chose to demand at Mt. Sinai. The Law was something WE asked to be judged by at that time and place. Jesus' sacrifice was to bring us out from under that Law..... not to end some kind of "separation" that had been imposed upon mankind.

 

[shotgunner]

Willie, it's hard to discuss these deep thoughts in this format. I certainly didn't mean to accuse you of anything.


Concerning salvation before Christ. It's the same as it always has been, by faith. During the levitical priesthood, it was faith in the sacrifice. Could have been the same for Adam and Eve since we know sacrifice was practiced.

 

[Jenizona]

"Rich" is an issue. It sets off reds flags.

A wealthy minister is never good. There is no need for them.
"A worker is worth his wages". No human is actually deserving of $175m.

So pretty much you have a problem with rich people in general?

 

[Jenizona]

I really enjoy Charles Stanley. . .

Me too!

 

[KennethC]

Kenneth, we agree on a lot of things and disagree on some things. I really appreciate that you can separate the two and treat me like a brother in Christ.

Our difference here is that I see our works, which must be there if salvation has truly taken place, as a result of our salvation rather than a part of it. In a way it is a part because works can't be separated from a true believer. However, grace dictates that works is not a part, as in a contributing factor to my salvation, but only a result, that is always present in true faith.

I see what you say but you do as so many do because of the teaching they have been in.
They say those works are the result of salvation as in other words putting salvation before the works.

However those works are the product of a true faith not salvation, as faith and salvation are two separate things.

Faith comes by hearing the word and that word being from God to trust in what He said and commanded to do, from their in that true active faith in Christ leads to salvation. Salvation being placed at minute one of faith or as an already received physical possession does not align with scripture. Especially the many scriptures from Paul and Peter both that show it is the end result of our faith, not the beginning.

Works are a product of a true faith !!!

 

[Jenizona]

I understand some of you HATE WoF people. What I would like to see is actually naming ministers you disagree with because there are some being lumped in with the WoF crowd who aren't WoF. People aren't even listening to the sermons these ministers preach, they are just saying "He is WoF, he's a fraud." It is really easy to just put someone in a name and discredit them with not even listening to them. I'm not WoF but there are some ministers, whom are called WoF, that I listen to and I have yet found anything they have said or written that contradicts the bible. Believe me I question everything a minister says and confirm it with scripture.

EXACTLY!!!! Oh my gosh, Lance! I actually had to Google "Word of Faith" yesterday when I was looking at this thread, because I had no idea what it was! I don't know if Joyce Meyer or Joel Osteen associate themselves with that particular "movement"!

The sites that have OLD video clips up which have edited together some voice clips to try to frame people in a specific light by taking things out of context are very anti-this, anti-that, and I had a hard time finding a site with a nice, neutral perspective on it. Anyway, just my two-cents!

 

[KennethC]

So pretty much you have a problem with rich people in general?

I do not think any of us has a problem with rich people if they are doing right by the money they have and helping others in need as the bible states, but I can not speak for others but I know I don't have a problem if they are using the money properly to help and edify others by the biblical standard.

However we also must take into account what the bible says by Jesus and Paul about rich people, and that is they both say how much harder if not almost impossible it is for a rich person to receive eternal life. As they get ensnared into a sinful lifestyle do to the money which leads to such things as greed, selfishness, and uncaring to others.