Originally Posted by onlinebuddy
More importantly, in Galatians 5, what law is Paul talking about?
How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?
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You are confusing the context of Romans chapter 7 with Galatians. Why? Are you trying to subvert the truth found in the context of Romans 7? Why not stay with the context? It seems you are resisting that Paul had the moral law in mind!
If you assume that only the Jews knew of the law, then you must assume that only the Jews died in Christ and that they are the only ones saved from its condemnation. Do you wish to assume this? If so, we Gentiles are lost.
In Romans 7 Paul is saying that they were no longer under the authority (v1) of the law.
He uses the words such as "released from" (v3) and "died to" (v4) the law.
Let's say he is speaking to the Jews (we are still debating whom he is speaking to).
He is telling them that they were no longer under, released from and died to the law.
He is actually talking about "the law." He is not talking about the consequences.
The moral law was the very essence of God's righteous requirements,
be it before Christ or after Christ.
The unbelieving Jews believed in the moral law. That's all he had.
The believing Jews did not dispute the moral law,
as he was always a believer of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The believing Gentile did not dispute the moral law,
as through Jesus, he came to know about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The "curse of the law" fell on both, transgressors of the moral and ceremonial law, didn't it.
And when Paul is saying that they died to the law, or were released from the law or were no longer under the authority of the law, what law did he mean?
Everybody was and will always be under the moral law as long as they are alive,
since the words of Jesus are a continuation of the moral law.
I still find us trying to discuss things at different wavelengths.
He uses the words such as "released from" (v3) and "died to" (v4) the law.
Let's say he is speaking to the Jews (we are still debating whom he is speaking to).
He is telling them that they were no longer under, released from and died to the law.
He is actually talking about "the law." He is not talking about the consequences.
The moral law was the very essence of God's righteous requirements,
be it before Christ or after Christ.
The unbelieving Jews believed in the moral law. That's all he had.
The believing Jews did not dispute the moral law,
as he was always a believer of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The believing Gentile did not dispute the moral law,
as through Jesus, he came to know about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The "curse of the law" fell on both, transgressors of the moral and ceremonial law, didn't it.
And when Paul is saying that they died to the law, or were released from the law or were no longer under the authority of the law, what law did he mean?
Everybody was and will always be under the moral law as long as they are alive,
since the words of Jesus are a continuation of the moral law.
I still find us trying to discuss things at different wavelengths.
In Romans the law that condemns is the moral law, the ten commandments.
However, in Galatians, Paul is dealing with believers (called Judaziers) who think that they can gain heaven, partially by Christ and partially by the works. What is Paul's response?
Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law (what law?) are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
Okay, this is a different context than Romans chapter 7. Here (in Gal) Paul is saying that if you think you can be saved by your works of the law that you must keep everything "in the book of the law" (i.e., the Pentateuch). "The book of the law" includes the 10 commandments.
However, in Galatians, Paul is dealing with believers (called Judaziers) who think that they can gain heaven, partially by Christ and partially by the works. What is Paul's response?
Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law (what law?) are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."
Okay, this is a different context than Romans chapter 7. Here (in Gal) Paul is saying that if you think you can be saved by your works of the law that you must keep everything "in the book of the law" (i.e., the Pentateuch). "The book of the law" includes the 10 commandments.
Originally Posted by onlinebuddy
Originally Posted by onlinebuddy
Who are the people who knew the law? Jews or Gentiles? Ans: The Jews.
I'm talking about "the" law of Moses.
... and I believe Paul was talking about "the" law of Moses.
The Jews were the ones who studied it and attempted to follow "the" law of Moses.
So, Paul was talking to the Jews, who knew "the" law.
Every requirement of God cannot be categorized as "the" Law.
God has, no doubt, impressed His righteous requirements
(which are in agreement with the moral law given through Moses)
upon every living being, through their consciences,
so that no one has an excuse before Him.
However, Paul is not talking such persons
who had the law impressed on their hearts through their consciences.
He was talking to those who knew the "Book of Law" of Moses; "the" Law.
I'm talking about "the" law of Moses.
... and I believe Paul was talking about "the" law of Moses.
The Jews were the ones who studied it and attempted to follow "the" law of Moses.
So, Paul was talking to the Jews, who knew "the" law.
Every requirement of God cannot be categorized as "the" Law.
God has, no doubt, impressed His righteous requirements
(which are in agreement with the moral law given through Moses)
upon every living being, through their consciences,
so that no one has an excuse before Him.
However, Paul is not talking such persons
who had the law impressed on their hearts through their consciences.
He was talking to those who knew the "Book of Law" of Moses; "the" Law.
Hold on...let's not make that assumption. The letter is to the Roman believers, who were made up by both Jew and Gentile.
Let me use you to answer the question.
When you sin (and you do sin) the law can't condemn you. Why you have been delivered from under its demands, i.e., "obey and live, disobey and die". It can't place you in death row. Why? Two reasons:
1] The justice of the law has been satisfied because your "old life" (which we still need to iron out) died in Christ. Thus as far as the law is concerned, you are dead.
2] The law is satisfied with your "new creation" that is "in Christ" in the heavenly places because that humanity is immortal and sinless. That's because Christ was resurrected with a glorified humanity, free from sin. That humanity (your new creation) Christ took to heaven when He was resurrected (see Eph 2:6 & Col 1:13). So in Christ the law sees you as you are "in Christ".
This is good news to sinners, but bad news to the legalist among us....
Let me use you to answer the question.
When you sin (and you do sin) the law can't condemn you. Why you have been delivered from under its demands, i.e., "obey and live, disobey and die". It can't place you in death row. Why? Two reasons:
1] The justice of the law has been satisfied because your "old life" (which we still need to iron out) died in Christ. Thus as far as the law is concerned, you are dead.
2] The law is satisfied with your "new creation" that is "in Christ" in the heavenly places because that humanity is immortal and sinless. That's because Christ was resurrected with a glorified humanity, free from sin. That humanity (your new creation) Christ took to heaven when He was resurrected (see Eph 2:6 & Col 1:13). So in Christ the law sees you as you are "in Christ".
This is good news to sinners, but bad news to the legalist among us....
Originally Posted by onlinebuddy
He was talking to those who knew the "Book of Law" of Moses; "the" Law.
In Gal 3:17-25 Paul again has the moral law in mind.
"The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant (the NC, righteousness by faith) previously established by God and thus do away with the promise."
What law came 430 years after God established the NC with Abraham? Answer: The law on Sinai.
See Ex 12:40 & Ex 19:1
We were talking about Romans 7.
for I am speaking to those who know the law[Romans 7:1]
Q. Who are the people who knew the law? Jews or Gentiles?
Ans: The Jews.
Q. Who are the ones who were attempting to keep the law?
Ans: The Jews
No one on this thread is saying that the Jews were saved by the law.
He was specifically talking about the Law given through Moses.
No doubt, Jesus died for both, the Jew and the Gentile. However,
here Paul is referring to the Jewish Christians
and telling them that they were first married to the law.
Then they believed in Christ.
They died to the sin. Not automatically, but it was a conscious decision.
Galatians 5:24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires
They died to sin, and came under Christ's saving grace.
Therefore they are no longer obligated or bound to the law.
There are neither to fear nor promote the law.
Their first husband was the law.
They have now been released from the law.
Their second husband is Jesus, who set them free by grace.
They cannot have two husbands,
meaning they cannot be under the law and under grace at the same time.
S
Roberth.
In rom7:4_6 paul speaks of dyig to the law(of righteousness). He says we are released from the law and ser e in the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code(law) he says the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law. So which law is paul referring to that we die to, we are not under?
Well in the following five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the Ten Commandments
In rom7:4_6 paul speaks of dyig to the law(of righteousness). He says we are released from the law and ser e in the new way of the spirit and not the old way of the written code(law) he says the sinful passions in us are aroused by the law. So which law is paul referring to that we die to, we are not under?
Well in the following five verses he gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to a law of righteousness. The example he gave was. Thou shalt not covet, which is one of the Ten Commandments
The Jews believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- the one and only God.
When they entered the New Covenant, they never questioned the moral law- the 10 Commandments.
It was more than obvious to a believer, that the teachings of Jesus were consistent with the 10 Commandments.
When Paul said the word "law" he was referring to the Book of Law given through Moses.
He did not segregate the moral law from the ceremonial law.
When Paul referred to the commandment, "do not covet," which appears in the 10 Commandments, he was referring to the entire Book of the Law (of which the moral law is a part), and not just the moral law.
The "letter that kills," the "law written on stone, " the law that they "died to," the law that said, "do not covet" and the law that made Paul aware of sin, are all references to "The" Law, not part of it.
So, there is no reason to believe that Paul was talking about the moral law in Rom 7 and the ceremonial law in Gal 5.
When they entered the New Covenant, they never questioned the moral law- the 10 Commandments.
It was more than obvious to a believer, that the teachings of Jesus were consistent with the 10 Commandments.
When Paul said the word "law" he was referring to the Book of Law given through Moses.
He did not segregate the moral law from the ceremonial law.
When Paul referred to the commandment, "do not covet," which appears in the 10 Commandments, he was referring to the entire Book of the Law (of which the moral law is a part), and not just the moral law.
The "letter that kills," the "law written on stone, " the law that they "died to," the law that said, "do not covet" and the law that made Paul aware of sin, are all references to "The" Law, not part of it.
So, there is no reason to believe that Paul was talking about the moral law in Rom 7 and the ceremonial law in Gal 5.
That's not an assumption. Let me clarify.
It's obvious that Paul is writing the letter of Romans to be read by believers (Jews and gentiles).
However, he is constantly addressing a problem created by the Jewish believers, that plagued the early church.
The problem was that some believing Jews, began to impose the works of the law(such as circumcision) on the gentile believers.
Note that the moral law was accepted by all, and never in question; the works part was in question.
Paul is time and again addressing that issue throughout his letters.
I never was under the Law or its works. So I am not accountable to the law. I am accountable to Jesus, who died for me.
because I was never under the law. The law is there in the Bible for me to study and learn from; not to put me under obligation.
The justice of the law has nothing to do with me or my old life. The Jew is tied to the law(the entire law).
Christ fulfilled the law perfectly, thereby establishing that the law was from God, as well as making it obsolete.
My old life died in Christ the day I believed. By faith, I have received the promises of God. Let me clarify: faith was just the means to receive, lest you accuse me of taking the credit for my salvation by works.
The law does not see. God does not see through the law, and he does not judge the believer through the law. Jesus is my High priest and judge and His words are the law (John 12:48)
The good news is that Jesus (the reality of the law) died for my sins and opened the door of heaven to me. The legalist cannot talk about Jesus without talking about the law.
It's obvious that Paul is writing the letter of Romans to be read by believers (Jews and gentiles).
However, he is constantly addressing a problem created by the Jewish believers, that plagued the early church.
The problem was that some believing Jews, began to impose the works of the law(such as circumcision) on the gentile believers.
Note that the moral law was accepted by all, and never in question; the works part was in question.
Paul is time and again addressing that issue throughout his letters.
I never was under the Law or its works. So I am not accountable to the law. I am accountable to Jesus, who died for me.
because I was never under the law. The law is there in the Bible for me to study and learn from; not to put me under obligation.
The justice of the law has nothing to do with me or my old life. The Jew is tied to the law(the entire law).
Christ fulfilled the law perfectly, thereby establishing that the law was from God, as well as making it obsolete.
My old life died in Christ the day I believed. By faith, I have received the promises of God. Let me clarify: faith was just the means to receive, lest you accuse me of taking the credit for my salvation by works.
The law does not see. God does not see through the law, and he does not judge the believer through the law. Jesus is my High priest and judge and His words are the law (John 12:48)
The good news is that Jesus (the reality of the law) died for my sins and opened the door of heaven to me. The legalist cannot talk about Jesus without talking about the law.
Let's look at Romans 2.
Yes, the book of Romans is written to both, the Jews and the gentiles, but all text is not about both.
For eg.
The first few paragraphs talk about how God shows no favoritism. This is applicable to all.
Romans 2:12 is about both, the Jews and the Gentiles.
Rom 2:14-16 is about the gentile. Paul is saying that they have the law written on their hearts, even though they do not know the Law.
Rom 2: 17-29 is about the Jews, and addressed to Jews. Here Paul is pointing out the insincerity of the Jews. The Jews had the outward and physical sign of circumcision(works), but were inwardly corrupt. Paul is telling them that inner matters (the condition of their hearts) count more.
In general, Paul seems to be challenging the Jewish believers more than the gentiles.
Yes, the book of Romans is written to both, the Jews and the gentiles, but all text is not about both.
For eg.
The first few paragraphs talk about how God shows no favoritism. This is applicable to all.
Romans 2:12 is about both, the Jews and the Gentiles.
Rom 2:14-16 is about the gentile. Paul is saying that they have the law written on their hearts, even though they do not know the Law.
Rom 2: 17-29 is about the Jews, and addressed to Jews. Here Paul is pointing out the insincerity of the Jews. The Jews had the outward and physical sign of circumcision(works), but were inwardly corrupt. Paul is telling them that inner matters (the condition of their hearts) count more.
In general, Paul seems to be challenging the Jewish believers more than the gentiles.