Bearing false witness

[aspen]

Is it ok to bear false witness against your neighbor in order to discredit them? It seems to me that bearing false witness is included in the 10 commandments for a reason. And despite some people's belief that the ends justifies the means and that the Lord use evil purposefully, to bring about good; I believe God still condemns this practice today.

Universalism:

In Christianity, Universalism refers to the belief that all humans can be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to harmony in God's kingdom. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels. Universalism was a widely held but controversial view among theologians in Early Christianity: In the first five or six centuries of Christianity, there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa) were universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality, and one (Carthage or Rome) taught the endless punishment of the lost. The two major theologians opposing it were Tertullian and Augustine.

In the 17th-century and 18th-century Europe and America, other Christian reformers came to believe in a universally loving God and felt that God would grant all human beings salvation. They became known as the Universalists.



For the record, although, I reject Calvinism and the idea that Christ only died for the select, I do not believe everyone will be saved; I believe that although Christ died for everyone, it is up to building a relationship with Jesus that involves faith, and corporation between Jesus and us for the sanctification process to transform us into citizens of Heaven. Is we are fully aware that Jesus is God and reject His sacrifice and His work in our hearts, we will remain in our narcissism, unable to love God, ourselves, or others and God will no longer fellowship with us - we will essentially become our own gods - this is hell.


Therefore, to proclaim that I espouse Universalism, beyond the Christian idea that Jesus died for everyone - is scandalous. Woe to you who bears false witness - the fact is, you are angry that I told the truth - that your cognitive approach to Christianity is exactly what Jesus condemned in the Pharisees - making sure that all your theological 'i's or dotted and 't's are crossed has nothing to do with the sanctification of the heart. You read Pharisee associated with your behavior and have been spending the past day bearing false witness against me in hopes of driving me from this board.


Well, I have never stopped pointing out that the Emperor is naked in my whole life and I am not going to stop now - no matter who supports your fear-based attempts to shut me up.


Now, I realize that I cannot stop you from continuing to malign my character, but I can, for the time being name your malicious behavior, imoss. So, this serves as notification that I see what you are doing and will no longer allow you to continue without pointing it out.

 

[imoss]

Hmmm... whoever referred to you by name my friend.

 

[VW]

does she malign your character? is this what she has done?

she reacted as I felt like reacting, to certain statements which seemed to say that everyone will be saved, that is, everyone who is religious, be christain, hindu, budist, mohamadian, witch, zorastian, whatever, as long as they were searching for God. I believe now that this is not what you meant.

I disagree with your view of hell, of the cost of denying Jesus Christ. Not a big deal.

I understand that we all are made up of what we have experienced, that we are the product of our lives. We do not remain unaffected by events or teachings or subjective happenings.

I do not believe in theology as a whole. I cannot try to understand God by logic, when He has made a way for me to know Him available, in and through Jesus Christ by His Spirit. Sometimes our intellegence gets in the way. Paul asked how many wise there were among us. God chose to reveal His mercy and grace to us who are fools for His sake, to confound the wise.

I pray that we can find ourselves in Christ Jesus, seeking to be one with Him and in Him, with each other.

 

[aspen]

Hmmm... whoever referred to you by name my friend.

Are you claiming that BEWARE is not a warning against my post? Then feel free to renounce it now and I will apologize. Also, if you are really concerned about the spiritual well-being of people who may read these dangerous posts, name the poster.

 

[VW]

Hmmm... whoever referred to you by name my friend.

Hi sis,

I think Aspen thought you were referring to him.

I saw that you were not. Your concern was and is well founded. What you are concerned about is not all ways lead to God, but really leaving God out of the picture. He has become an idea, and the search is the reward.

Blessings in His name,

 

[aspen]

does she malign your character? is this what she has done?

she reacted as I felt like reacting, to certain statements which seemed to say that everyone will be saved, that is, everyone who is religious, be christain, hindu, budist, mohamadian, witch, zorastian, whatever, as long as they were searching for God. I believe now that this is not what you meant.

I disagree with your view of hell, of the cost of denying Jesus Christ. Not a big deal.

I understand that we all are made up of what we have experienced, that we are the product of our lives. We do not remain unaffected by events or teachings or subjective happenings.

I do not believe in theology as a whole. I cannot try to understand God by logic, when He has made a way for me to know Him available, in and through Jesus Christ by His Spirit. Sometimes our intellegence gets in the way. Paul asked how many wise there were among us. God chose to reveal His mercy and grace to us who are fools for His sake, to confound the wise.

I pray that we can find ourselves in Christ Jesus, seeking to be one with Him and in Him, with each other.

How do you know BEWARE is about me? Imoss seems to be denying it

 

[aspen]

does she malign your character? is this what she has done?

she reacted as I felt like reacting, to certain statements which seemed to say that everyone will be saved, that is, everyone who is religious, be christain, hindu, budist, mohamadian, witch, zorastian, whatever, as long as they were searching for God. I believe now that this is not what you meant.

I disagree with your view of hell, of the cost of denying Jesus Christ. Not a big deal.

I understand that we all are made up of what we have experienced, that we are the product of our lives. We do not remain unaffected by events or teachings or subjective happenings.

I do not believe in theology as a whole. I cannot try to understand God by logic, when He has made a way for me to know Him available, in and through Jesus Christ by His Spirit. Sometimes our intellegence gets in the way. Paul asked how many wise there were among us. God chose to reveal His mercy and grace to us who are fools for His sake, to confound the wise.

I pray that we can find ourselves in Christ Jesus, seeking to be one with Him and in Him, with each other.

This is a very good post. I needed to make sure people knew that I am not in anyway advocating for Universalism - although, I am not shy about saying that I love the idea and I wish it were true; but frankly, it is not.

 

[imoss]

Oh no I must say I absolutely was referring to Aspen & I stand by my post & pray that he will reflect on what he posts & how it may impact those new to the faith or those seeking CHRIST IN A CHRISTIAN WEBSITE. We are not in the "world" right now. We are in a place of Christian fellowship and the very foundation the very core of our faith is in the price paid by Jesus Christ for us. If we do not receive Jesus we go to HELL. Bottom line. Got a problem with that, go to another website that doesnt hold Jesus as Lord and savior and take your attack away from here. I will go get the link to the thread where you post lies about our Lord if you like. I chose not to identify you but you chose to identify yourself. You need to seriously spend some time in prayer my friend and reject this new age religion that seems to be taking your very faith. I will pray for you & I will absolutely not allow you to continue in your spreading of lies about the core of the Christian faith. With that being said, I've warned people. I've rebuked you as is necessary as a sister in Christ. I question if you are in Christ though... call that judging but HOW could you say that someone who BOWS down to a shiney gold God will receive salvation? Only if they reject their Gold god and come to knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord. Then and only then as per my HOLY BIBLE which I hold as the word of God! not as per me. Now if you wish to alter your position that you held in that post that all paths lead to heaven well then you go for it & perhaps i too will come to the understanding that VW has that perhaps this is a misunderstanding on my part & if it was & you dont believe all paths lead to the Father then I will most humbly apologise.

 

[imoss]

http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=11734&page=9 Read the responses to the posting of the video, read them as if it werent you writing them. Am I still a false witness?

 

[VW]

I may have missed the post you are talking about. I thought I knew which one, but as usual, whenever I think, I am wrong.

I would not intercede for this one if I did not believe that he loves Jesus, and worships Him.

What you say is true. There is a good reason that Paul was prevented from going into far asia. Those shinny gods are demons, who delight in destroying people for eternity, for keeping them in bondage now is not enough for them.

 

[VW]

http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=11734&page=9 Read the responses to the posting of the video, read them as if it werent you writing them. Am I still a false witness?

May be I am still looking at the wrong one. I apologize that i am missing it.

Could you quote the part that is offensive? I hate to ask that, but I think it would be good in this one circumstance.

And always with His love,
vic

 

[VW]

May be I am still looking at the wrong one. I apologize that i am missing it.

Could you quote the part that is offensive? I hate to ask that, but I think it would be good in this one circumstance.

And always with His love,
vic

If posting would be wrong, then send to me private message.

 

[aspen]

Oh no I must say I absolutely was referring to Aspen & I stand by my post & pray that he will reflect on what he posts & how it may impact those new to the faith or those seeking CHRIST IN A CHRISTIAN WEBSITE.

1. I am glad you finally decided to be honest.

2. I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;
He descended into hell.

The third day He arose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.


3. For you to choose to deny the truth of my faith is arrogant and bears false witness against me. I do not agree with much of your narrow-mind views, but I would never deny that you are what you claim to be.


We are not in the "world" right now. We are in a place of Christian fellowship and the very foundation the very core of our faith is in the price paid by Jesus Christ for us.

1. This is not Christian fellowship - that belongs to the world - this board is a place to discuss doctrine - notice it is called a discussion board. If you want fellowship, go to church. Also, this is not the IMOSS board - it is a public board on the www.

If we do not receive Jesus we go to HELL. Bottom line. Got a problem with that, go to another website that doesnt hold Jesus as Lord and savior and take your attack away from here.

1. Yep. I am not attacking anyone.

I will go get the link to the thread where you post lies about our Lord if you like.

1. Awesome - I hope you read them this time.

I chose not to identify you but you chose to identify yourself.

1. Is this supposed to be a noble gesture? - you choose to bear false witness against me from the shadows.

You need to seriously spend some time in prayer my friend and reject this new age religion that seems to be taking your very faith.

1. Not that it is any of your business, but I pray throughout the day, everyday. I even posted a thread on prayer? Have you? Or you just into the whole false witness thing?


I will pray for you & I will absolutely not allow you to continue in your spreading of lies about the core of the Christian faith.


1. I welcome prayer

2. You have no say over the matter.


With that being said, I've warned people. I've rebuked you as is necessary as a sister in Christ.

1. You deny that I am a Christian, and now you are my sister in Christ??

I question if you are in Christ though... call that judging but HOW could you say that someone who BOWS down to a shiney gold God will receive salvation?

1, God chooses to save anyone for any reason - what is the difference to bowing in front of a gold statue and supporting slave labor by consuming at Walmart?

There are going to be a lot of surprises in Heaven - I am going to be thrilled - are you? Or are you going to challenge God?

Only if they reject their Gold god and come to knowledge of Jesus Christ as Lord. Then and only then as per my HOLY BIBLE which I hold as the word of God! not as per me.

If they only open their hearts to the justification and sanctification of Christ, they will be turned from prideful, narcissistic, self center people, to loving saints, regardless of how theologically educated they happen to be.

Now if you wish to alter your position that you held in that post that all paths lead to heaven well then you go for it & perhaps i too will come to the understanding that VW has that perhaps this is a misunderstanding on my part & if it was & you dont believe all paths lead to the Father then I will most humbly apologise.

I accept your apology.

Now that we have work through this, lets move on

 

[aspen]

http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=11734&page=9 Read the responses to the posting of the video, read them as if it werent you writing them. Am I still a false witness?

You mean the video that openly attack my church? Yes you are bearing false witness. The justification and sanctification of the heart - Jesus' work in our hearts is more important than doctrinal accuracy - if God was looking for theologians rather than people who are devoted to love, the Pharisees would be celebrated, not condemned

 

[imoss]

QUOTE ASPEN "I know that Robert Schuler has become a Universalist in his later years. As far as the Pope is concerned, he is not advocating or even agreeing with other religions – he is simply acknowledging that they exist and nurture some really amazing, spiritually minded people. I used to be afraid of this kind of thing, too; but now, **doctrinal correctness takes a backseat to sanctification of the heart. We are all guilty of doctrinal errors – which can and will be corrected easily enough it Heaven. I am much more concerned about the condition of my heart and the hearts of my neighbors – are we going to be able to accept correction or will we resist and possible argue with God about the way things really are? Believe me, I have met more than one Calvinist that was willing to go toe to toe over doctrine and take no prisoners! After being reduced to a theological grease spot on the ground, I wondered if they were practicing for a showdown with God, someday. As unorthodox as this may sound – **the Buddhists I know have a much better understanding and practice of managing pride then many of the Calvinists I have run into me. Sheesh, even the men who passed up the Samaritan were not guilty of knocking him on his butt in the first place!

**The most important thing is not what you know about God, it is the sanctification of your heart. Are you humble enough to receive correction – it your focus on caring for your neighbor or correcting him? End quote aspen
__________________
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain - Mark Twain

Man finds it hard to get what he wants, because he does not want the best; God finds it hard to give, because He would give the best, and man will not take it. - George MacDonald

The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reason. - Voltaire


this is aspen quoting me: So correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment of this post. You have indicated a Buddhist will go to heaven If they have the right heart?

Like the Pharisees, you are relying too heavily on your own mind – God works through people regardless of the completeness of their theological understanding. I agree that Christianity is **the most correct religion, but others are on a continuum of correctnessWRONG – CS Lewis taught this as well and there was nothing new age about him. The fact is, Buddhism is almost right; the only difference (which, I agree is a big difference) is that their focus is managing personal desire – Christianity’s focus is to love God, self and neighbor. Therefore, it is less likely that a Buddhist would be concerned with Jesus’ sanctification of his heart than a Christian, but it is possible for him to be open to it without possessing a correct doctrinal understanding of Christianity.

Your indication that we need to have a complete understanding of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross is troubling for two reasons:

1.What happens to mentally impaired people? What happens to children? What happens to folks who do not have a Western mindset? What happens to people who become ‘saved’, but retain pagan cultural practices? Are these people exceptions? If so, why is it okay to give them a pass, but attribute other people’s inability to understand Christian doctrine as stemming from pride?

What happens to Christians in our country who get saved, yet still buy into our consumer, narcissistic culture – they’ve read the word and accepted Jesus – they may even have a seminary education, yet they continue to participate fully in the consumption of products they do not need at the expense of poor nations……this issue is more complicated then you believe it to be.

I simply cannot believe that Jesus separates the sheep and the goats based on the unbiblical phrase “Jesus come into my heart”, which is often uttered once and then forgotten. God is to just for this – His will is going to be done in the hearts of people whether they are theologians or not, based on their hearts capacity to love.

2.How much knowledge is enough? Do we simply need to believe that Jesus died for us? Or do we need to understand and be able to diagram the Trinity? Do we only need to confess our sins to God or do we have to understand the way Christ’s process of justification and sanctification works in our hearts to save us? Do we only need to trust Jesus or are we supposed to be about to take a stand on the interplay between faith and works? Finally, do we need to interpret the Bible literally, as our sole authority or are we supposed to study God’s sanctification process in the lives of the saints and look to the Church as equal in authority to the Bible?

In my humble opinion, doctrine is a hobby – I love discussing it – I certainly would not be on this board if I didn’t; but it has nothing to do with the sanctification God can work in the heart that desires humility and love. end quote aspen

aspen quoted me in black: Sounds just like the all roads lead to Heaven new age garbage Oprah supports & Yes I think I will remain, not afraid of this sort of thing, but vehemently opposed!

Then you are missing the point of Christianity completely. God is interested in humility and our capacity to exercise and receive love – forgiveness being the highest expression of love. This has little to do with the mind – our mind simply needs to help us comply to the sanctification that Jesus uses to change us into humble, loving beings. There is nothing universal about this – it is rare to find a heart that is being sanctified to be humble and loving – inside Christianity or out. Jesus had no problem with the theology of the Pharisees – indeed, they had all their theological ducks in a row; Jesus was concerned with the state of their hearts. Instead of complying to sanctification of the heart, the Pharisee where all in their heads and it was acting as a stumbling block for them and the people. This is why Jesus tried to move their knowledge from their brains to their hearts – getting all work up about the Sabbath is meaningless if you are using the law to bind people – in fact, the Sabbath was made to help man – not to bind men in chains
__________________
Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain - Mark Twain

Man finds it hard to get what he wants, because he does not want the best; God finds it hard to give, because He would give the best, and man will not take it. - George MacDonald

The truths of religion are never so well understood as by those who have lost the power of reason. - Voltaire end quote aspen

Now, perhaps I have misread his post or perhaps it is mis-written I dont know. I just refuse to watch someone trash the foundation of Christianity and to me this does. Jesus is and always will be the way the truth and the life No one comes to the Father except by him. Reject this or accept this, it truly matters and we must stand firm against those who subtly speak to there being other ways to salvation. I know aspen you have a good heart that wants all to be accepted and none to be rejected. You can no way judge the salvation of a budhist than I can judge your salvation. You are however responsible for what you profess on a Christian website. I wish to apologise that it has come to this for I never intended to identify you by name but to caution people to question what they read on here for not all posters are grounded in the foundation of Christ Jesus. You chose to identify yourself and obviously it resonated in your heart that I was speaking of you just as your bearing false witness post resonated to me and I will, I promise you reflect on that as I do submit that sometimes I do get my back up in defense of the Lord when I should be speaking the truth in Love. This is something I will definitely have to work on. & I apologise for posting the words that I question if you have Christ as quite honestly I dont know but I dont question. I just know that my experience is to stand firm in the defense of my Lord who's given me so very much and firm in that those who come to the place of the Lord would find him there and not confusion about the condition of hearts.

 

[imoss]

You mean the video that openly attack my church? Yes you are bearing false witness. The justification and sanctification of the heart - Jesus' work in our hearts is more important than doctrinal accuracy - if God was looking for theologians rather than people who are devoted to love, the Pharisees would be celebrated, not condemned

That video also attacked one of my most beloved Billy Graham. My response was one of shock and dismay that these things were being said by him. the show thread was to show your written response to what I had to say about that.

 

[karuna]

I urge, nay beg, people to use the standard quote styles.

 

[aspen]

So you disagree with me! Fine, I am not the Bible - I am not even a theologian, but I am a Christian - and not in the sense that Bishop Spong says he is - I actually believe in the Triune God! I stick to my statement that the sanctification of our hearts is what matters - not our doctrinal understanding - who are we to decide who has a relationship with Christ? I stand with Paul when he said that love is the most important thing - everything else is like a clanging cymbal. Jesus tells us that we need to love God, and our neighbors - not know of our God and our neighbors.

If I see a Buddhist or a Hindu in heaven that has a sanctified heart through Jesus - and has been corrected on important theological points I will be thrilled and amazed at how great and merciful God is - yet it seems like so many Christians today would scream sour grapes!

I know you like to see everything is black and white - it is safe, but reality doesn't work that way. The world is full of people that God is working on - sanctifying their hearts and they do not have acceptable doctrine according to you - sorry to tell you.

 

[VW]

I went back and did not find the post above. But I do remember it, and the taste of hell in my heart that it brought. And then I wondered and questioned. Aspen is a catholic, obviously. What they call sanctification is seen differently from what we call sanctification. I read deeply with searching to see if it was ever said that there are other ways to salvation. I saw the concern for those who are mentally handicapped, as is my oldest son. And the usual concern for those who never hear. But I also saw the concern with the formula of salvation, which is merely a confession, with no change of heart, no new birth by the Spirit. Is this really salvation? I do not know, and it is a concern.

As to some other religions, if looked at objectively, they do seem to have followers who are acting more holy than christians. But, and this is a big but, without the work of regeneration by the Holy Spirit, there is very grave doubts about a persons salvation. It has not actually happened until this birth of the Spirit.

And additionally, we are to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.

Aspen does take a mental stance in this group. It is a discussion, not actually fellowship.

You and I see this forum differently. We see it as a place where people seeking the truth come and read what is posted here, and anything that could be misconstrued is to be avoided. I take this to the extreme of seeking the Spirit. I have failed to do this, and have been shamed by those times.

I think that I want to get out of this now, I feel like I have stepped into something I should not have.

Blessings in His name,

 

[VW]

So you disagree with me! Fine, I am not the Bible - I am not even a theologian, but I am a Christian - and not in the sense that Bishop Spong says he is - I actually believe in the Triune God! I stick to my statement that the sanctification of our hearts is what matters - not our doctrinal understanding - who are we to decide who has a relationship with Christ? I stand with Paul when he said that love is the most important thing - everything else is like a clanging cymbal. Jesus tells us that we need to love God, and our neighbors - not know of our God and our neighbors.

If I see a Buddhist or a Hindu in heaven that has a sanctified heart through Jesus - and has been corrected on important theological points I will be thrilled and amazed at how great and merciful God is - yet it seems like so many Christians today would scream sour grapes!

I know you like to see everything is black and white - it is safe, but reality doesn't work that way. The world is full of people that God is working on - sanctifying their hearts and they do not have acceptable doctrine according to you - sorry to tell you.

Well, here is the problem, you will not see a buddhist or hindu in heaven, because they do not believe in Jesus Christ. And will He sanctify the heart of one who does not believe in Him? I agree that it is not doctrinal correctness that saves us. Neither does imoss. Neither do you.