"The unborn has no constitutional rights...Ms Clinton
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Didn't know God was a 'cellular law'...
Isa_44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa_49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Jer_1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Isa_44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa_44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa_49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Jer_1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
K
Quote "We are both meaningless ....
The Bible says the hairs on our head are numbered. God sent His only Son to die for us. I''d say we're pretty meaningful.
Quote "I don't want my family, friends, or pets to die or more importantly to feel pain.Which is why I support euthanasia and abortion.
Pain is part of life since the fall. As long as we are alive we feel pain. They are now proving a baby feels pain in the womb. Still support abortion?
Quote " most reasonable people would in fact support abortion..."
Can you explain why abortion is reasonable? And "most people" is merely your opinion.
Quote ". There is no scientific evidence for anything "deserving" to live.
God created life,scientists did not. We deserve death but Jesus gave life.
Quote "I think that anyone's mother had a right to abort them"Clearly it was not in "God's Will" or "fate" that Jeremiah or Jesus was aborted
So fate made sure Jesus and Jeremiah weren't aborted but every other aborted child didn't have such luck huh? They deserved to have scissors in the back of their head. Sounds like an awesome god you serve there. Only certain important people deserve life.
Quote "when someone poor girl gets an abortion. But I'll stand by my words that it is the more moral thing to do at times and so we must keep it open as an option."
Keep the option open for abortion in the case of a mother dying in child birth and rape.Ok thats 3% of abortions. How do you justify all the rest?
Quote "You know this kid is not going to be right and it will die and suffer...why would you do that to yourself and to the kid? "
Would like to know the stats,I know Ive met these people in person,who were suppose to die and are alive still today. Many parents have been told their child would die and the child not only lived but in good health. Doctors cant be 100% sure on anything.
Quote "but there is no good reason to allow it to if you don't want kids.."
Here's a novel idea, if you dont want kids,dont have sex!! If you have sex you have a 100% chance of getting pregnant. Funny how that is. Dont have sex till you're married and ready to grow up and be mature. The majority of abortions are had by single women. Why murder a baby? Dont have irresponsible sex.Problem solved.
Quote "this earth is already grossly over populated anyway"
Easy for you to say,someone let you live.
Quote "Why bring more people in this earth?"
Ever wonder if we aborted someone with the cure to cancer or some other disease? Maybe we aborted a scientist,or great artist or an evangelist that would see thousands come to Christ. But we'll never know will we? God is the creator of life and we have no right to take it or say who is worthy of living except in the case of capital punishment. God has a purpose for each soul and its not up to us to question it.
K
This is an ugly display of quote mining, taking me out of context, reading what you want into it, ignoring clear statements I made, and twisting my response to what someone asked me and framing it into my own idea or something I necessarily support. You can flip it around and frame it how you want. I'm not going to sit and reply to all of these. You clearly don't understand. And you make ridiculous comments like "easy for you to say, someone let you live". Really? Well, obviously! And if I was not let to live, I wouldn't be here talking to you, now would I? My mom and I talk about it all the time and she said she absolutely would have aborted me if I had severe defects and I support my mothers words 100% You're reading what you want into the Bible. You're taking metaphorical statements as literal... I don't even know where to begin. Private message me if you'd like to continue discussing this, but I'm done with this thread. It just turned into another ganging up on me because you have different beliefs. It is an awesome God that I serve. I serve Jesus Christ and maybe you should ask him to help you think a little more critically about these issues. I've tried to explain again and again with different examples and it's as if you only read what you want to read into my words. That's fine. I'll pray for you.
Okay, not struggling anymore. just going to point out the many contradictions.
We can't be both meaningless and meaningful. Instead of hiding behind a paradox, you should have just admitted it was wrong.
If there is no objective meaning or value to human life, then there is nothing wrong with killing anyone at any time.
the right to live is considered to be one of the basic human rights. it's not a strange new idea.
Unconscious people also do not have empathy, emotion, or sentience. If someone gets knocked unconscious, are you allowed to kill them?
there's actually no way to prove that it's all in the brain, and even an attempt to disprove it would require human experimentation.
sigh. if you believe in determinism, randomness is an illusion. this A is not B but B is A nonsense is getting old.
yes, it should be fairly obvious why I asked -- you said we were all meaningless.
You are talking about subjectively valuing other people, but if subjective value is the only value people have, then objectively, people are meaningless and their life and death doesn't matter.
If we live on spiritually, as you say, then consciousness is not just about the brain.
How can you be baffled when you yourself said we are all meaningless? How is it that hard to get the implications of your own statement? Do you just say these things to avoid thinking?
no no no, it either matters, or it doesn't matter. You have to choose one to believe in, or else your whole argument is a lie.
you don't love zygotes apparently. do you just pretend things aren't alive when it suits you?
No, I didn't -- I said, if you say you are more valuable than a zygote because of 'sentience' which no one can define or pinpoint, then, pro-lifers can say a zygote is a human being because of 'human spirit' which also can't be defined or pinpointed.
However, it is true that consciousness is characteristic of all life.
any belief in a human right to life requires something transcendent. the trouble is getting people to look at the implications of what they say they believe.
1. No they can't, scientists can't answer philosophical questions scientifically, it makes science a religion.
2. No descartes didn't define it. He said that thinking proves he exists, yes, but it doesn't define the limits of existence or of consciousness, because he wasn't aware of all thoughts, only his own.
I hope you're starting to see how little sense you're making.
how do we prove this? how do you prove that a person -never- experiences more consciousness after their ability to communicate via their brain and body is ended?
(btw you are apparently switching beliefs in this post because you already said you believed in transcendence and life after death)
because you cited neuroscience when arguing that a zygote does not have sentience and therefore does not 'deserve' to live. where is your scientific proof that you have sentience? where is your scientific proof of this criteria that says you deserve to live and the zygote doesn't?
You don't love someone if you think they are a meaningless meat robot or a machine of chemical processes. Please stop switching back and forth between materialist worldview and christian worldview.
It's a metaphor? Was the consecration a metaphor? Was the speaking to the nations a metaphor? Didn't those things literally happen? It seems like you're just saying it's a metaphor because it isn't convenient for you. How do you know God isn't forming people in wombs in a way that looks natural to us because we can only see the natural part of it?
In the context, God is always answering a symbolic image with a literal explanation. Forming someone in the womb is not followed up with a literal explanation. Therefore, in context, it does not seem to be a symbolic image, but a literal one.
Even though it might be problematic for your political views, there it sits, and btw if we have spirits and souls then you can't say we are just meat robots. Which is it Kisses? have some courage and pick one position and don't abandon it to switch back and forth.
so you believe that mary should have been allowed to abort God's son? do you think Jesus' consciousness didn't exist until he was born, and ended after his brain ceased to function on the cross?
What you said after this, and all the other things you've said about decisions and free will and determinism, are false. And also, they don't have anything to do with this debate, but since you keep using it as a distraction, I'll go into it.
Determinism does not require that people have no influence in how things are determined. You may experience your choices and your influence on things as mysterious and seemingly random, so you may think that choice is only choice if it comes from a mysterious unknown place. That is not true. God can know us so thoroughly and so well as to predict every possible choice we make and contain it within his choices. This is how determinism works. Free will never meant indeterminate or random will, it just meant individual will.
Determinism is like an incredibly complex algorithm. When we are within time we are within the algorithm, we can only see the factors in front of us and behind us. When we are outside we can look at the whole thing.
Right now we only have experience making decisions within the algorithm. So we associate decision making with incomplete knowledge. However, decision making comes from our identity, and if we knew ourselves completely, and stood outside of time, we could know the factor that we play in the algorithm, and all the rest of the algorithm, and we would see all our decisions as inevitable manifestations of our own 'variable' in the algorithm.
Your belief that determinism means we have no individual part to play, is an 'optical illusion' of the mind's eye, because you are looking at Time from within time, and applying the rules within time to a perspective outside of it. It's like a fish in a fishbowl assuming the whole world is underwater because he has never experienced anything beyond the fishbowl.
So please stop misapplying the concept of determinism. What you're talking about is -Materialist- determinism which assumes that all factors are physically observable. it's directly opposed to the existence of God. and also it's deceptive, because it's a philosophical belief pretending to be scientific.
no, it's indicative of how the -brain- works, and it's not that impressive because it only explores one -factor- that influences us, it does not prove that the brain is the only factor, and neuroscience can't prove that because only Omniscience can prove there are no other factors. So instead of being so impressed with science, maybe you should spend some time talking to the one that created everything, if you want to learn something.
your entire position on (materialist) determination is one big excuse, but I wouldn't call it rational. man's greatest thoughts and theories are just a place to hide from the least of God's truths.
now. NOW we are getting somewhere. thank you for saying that Kisses.
He is totally wrong, and apparently as a professor, he has made a profession of it. please don't waste time swallowing ignorant notions constructed by feeble mortal minds. the Bible is an introduction to the greatest intelligence we will ever encounter.
No, I was trying to get you to define the value of human life as you see it, so I could point out how your exception of zygotes from human life, could also be used to kill other people, because the exceptions are generally selfish and irrational. But you essentially backed out of defining anything and said it's all subjective, implying there is no truth and therefore no reason to try to be right about anything. Which is the mental implosion of most liberal positions these days.
sigh... here we are again... if someone is unconscious, are they no longer human? I asked this earlier in the post, no need to answer it twice.
and, if there are 100 abortions and 5 of them are due to unavoidable medical hardship, does that mean the other 95 for selfish reasons are morally sound? Exceptions don't justify the norm. A rare hardship doesn't justify frivolous freedom to abort at will.
Most of this discussion has been me pulling the loose screws out of your badly-constructed arguments. But it seems as I do it you frantically heap up more arguments that are even more self-defeating and contradictory. I'm not likely to continue wading through these. If you thought about what you're saying you wouldn't say it, and I shouldn't have to make you think about it. You shouldn't be baffled. Also, you shouldn't swallow the delusions of confused college professors no matter how famous they are. It's nasty stuff and it'll make your mind sick. They're just selling people a place to hide from the big questions.
We can't be both meaningless and meaningful. Instead of hiding behind a paradox, you should have just admitted it was wrong.
If there is no objective meaning or value to human life, then there is nothing wrong with killing anyone at any time.
the right to live is considered to be one of the basic human rights. it's not a strange new idea.
Unconscious people also do not have empathy, emotion, or sentience. If someone gets knocked unconscious, are you allowed to kill them?
there's actually no way to prove that it's all in the brain, and even an attempt to disprove it would require human experimentation.
sigh. if you believe in determinism, randomness is an illusion. this A is not B but B is A nonsense is getting old.
yes, it should be fairly obvious why I asked -- you said we were all meaningless.
You are talking about subjectively valuing other people, but if subjective value is the only value people have, then objectively, people are meaningless and their life and death doesn't matter.
If we live on spiritually, as you say, then consciousness is not just about the brain.
How can you be baffled when you yourself said we are all meaningless? How is it that hard to get the implications of your own statement? Do you just say these things to avoid thinking?
no no no, it either matters, or it doesn't matter. You have to choose one to believe in, or else your whole argument is a lie.
you don't love zygotes apparently. do you just pretend things aren't alive when it suits you?
No, I didn't -- I said, if you say you are more valuable than a zygote because of 'sentience' which no one can define or pinpoint, then, pro-lifers can say a zygote is a human being because of 'human spirit' which also can't be defined or pinpointed.
However, it is true that consciousness is characteristic of all life.
any belief in a human right to life requires something transcendent. the trouble is getting people to look at the implications of what they say they believe.
1. No they can't, scientists can't answer philosophical questions scientifically, it makes science a religion.
2. No descartes didn't define it. He said that thinking proves he exists, yes, but it doesn't define the limits of existence or of consciousness, because he wasn't aware of all thoughts, only his own.
I hope you're starting to see how little sense you're making.
how do we prove this? how do you prove that a person -never- experiences more consciousness after their ability to communicate via their brain and body is ended?
(btw you are apparently switching beliefs in this post because you already said you believed in transcendence and life after death)
because you cited neuroscience when arguing that a zygote does not have sentience and therefore does not 'deserve' to live. where is your scientific proof that you have sentience? where is your scientific proof of this criteria that says you deserve to live and the zygote doesn't?
You don't love someone if you think they are a meaningless meat robot or a machine of chemical processes. Please stop switching back and forth between materialist worldview and christian worldview.
It's a metaphor? Was the consecration a metaphor? Was the speaking to the nations a metaphor? Didn't those things literally happen? It seems like you're just saying it's a metaphor because it isn't convenient for you. How do you know God isn't forming people in wombs in a way that looks natural to us because we can only see the natural part of it?
In the context, God is always answering a symbolic image with a literal explanation. Forming someone in the womb is not followed up with a literal explanation. Therefore, in context, it does not seem to be a symbolic image, but a literal one.
Even though it might be problematic for your political views, there it sits, and btw if we have spirits and souls then you can't say we are just meat robots. Which is it Kisses? have some courage and pick one position and don't abandon it to switch back and forth.
so you believe that mary should have been allowed to abort God's son? do you think Jesus' consciousness didn't exist until he was born, and ended after his brain ceased to function on the cross?
What you said after this, and all the other things you've said about decisions and free will and determinism, are false. And also, they don't have anything to do with this debate, but since you keep using it as a distraction, I'll go into it.
Determinism does not require that people have no influence in how things are determined. You may experience your choices and your influence on things as mysterious and seemingly random, so you may think that choice is only choice if it comes from a mysterious unknown place. That is not true. God can know us so thoroughly and so well as to predict every possible choice we make and contain it within his choices. This is how determinism works. Free will never meant indeterminate or random will, it just meant individual will.
Determinism is like an incredibly complex algorithm. When we are within time we are within the algorithm, we can only see the factors in front of us and behind us. When we are outside we can look at the whole thing.
Right now we only have experience making decisions within the algorithm. So we associate decision making with incomplete knowledge. However, decision making comes from our identity, and if we knew ourselves completely, and stood outside of time, we could know the factor that we play in the algorithm, and all the rest of the algorithm, and we would see all our decisions as inevitable manifestations of our own 'variable' in the algorithm.
Your belief that determinism means we have no individual part to play, is an 'optical illusion' of the mind's eye, because you are looking at Time from within time, and applying the rules within time to a perspective outside of it. It's like a fish in a fishbowl assuming the whole world is underwater because he has never experienced anything beyond the fishbowl.
So please stop misapplying the concept of determinism. What you're talking about is -Materialist- determinism which assumes that all factors are physically observable. it's directly opposed to the existence of God. and also it's deceptive, because it's a philosophical belief pretending to be scientific.
no, it's indicative of how the -brain- works, and it's not that impressive because it only explores one -factor- that influences us, it does not prove that the brain is the only factor, and neuroscience can't prove that because only Omniscience can prove there are no other factors. So instead of being so impressed with science, maybe you should spend some time talking to the one that created everything, if you want to learn something.
your entire position on (materialist) determination is one big excuse, but I wouldn't call it rational. man's greatest thoughts and theories are just a place to hide from the least of God's truths.
now. NOW we are getting somewhere. thank you for saying that Kisses.
He is totally wrong, and apparently as a professor, he has made a profession of it. please don't waste time swallowing ignorant notions constructed by feeble mortal minds. the Bible is an introduction to the greatest intelligence we will ever encounter.
No, I was trying to get you to define the value of human life as you see it, so I could point out how your exception of zygotes from human life, could also be used to kill other people, because the exceptions are generally selfish and irrational. But you essentially backed out of defining anything and said it's all subjective, implying there is no truth and therefore no reason to try to be right about anything. Which is the mental implosion of most liberal positions these days.
sigh... here we are again... if someone is unconscious, are they no longer human? I asked this earlier in the post, no need to answer it twice.
and, if there are 100 abortions and 5 of them are due to unavoidable medical hardship, does that mean the other 95 for selfish reasons are morally sound? Exceptions don't justify the norm. A rare hardship doesn't justify frivolous freedom to abort at will.
Most of this discussion has been me pulling the loose screws out of your badly-constructed arguments. But it seems as I do it you frantically heap up more arguments that are even more self-defeating and contradictory. I'm not likely to continue wading through these. If you thought about what you're saying you wouldn't say it, and I shouldn't have to make you think about it. You shouldn't be baffled. Also, you shouldn't swallow the delusions of confused college professors no matter how famous they are. It's nasty stuff and it'll make your mind sick. They're just selling people a place to hide from the big questions.
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K
Quote "This is an ugly display of quote mining"
Thats nonsense,I used quotes of your own words,right there in black and white. If you don't believe it why did you write it? Correct me where I'm wrong.
Quote "You clearly don't understand."
Lets keep it simple,what don't I understand?
Quote "And you make ridiculous comments like "easy for you to say, someone let you live". Really? Well, obviously! And if I was not let to live, I wouldn't be here talking to you, now would I?
How is this not a sensible statement. Someone allowed you to live your life yet you don't think others deserve the same? How is that fair?
Quote "My mom and I talk about it all the time and she said she absolutely would have aborted me if I had severe defects and I support my mothers words 100%
Fine, thats your mom. But plenty of parents have been told their child would die,my cousin and his wife were told to abort,and their child is healthy and growing today with no problems. They could have destroyed that child.
Quote "You're reading what you want into the Bible."
No, you are.The Bible is clear that God has a purpose for us before we are born. The Bible states this several times with various people. The baby who became John the Baptist leap with joy in the womb when Mary came near carrying the Savior. So dont try to tell me its a blob or merely a fetus. Only God has a right to take life.
Quote "It is an awesome God that I serve. I serve Jesus Christ ..."
Yes and that awesome God created you,he knit you together and gave you life and a purpose to fulfill. No one has a right to take life and purpose away from anyone.
Quote "maybe you should ask him to help you think a little more critically about these issues"
Maybe you should ask Him if he minds His creation being murdered for selfish reasons. You should ask Him if He has a problem with a baby being torn to pieces from a womb that was meant for its protection and safety. The main reason for abortion is selfishness and irresponsibility. If you were mature at all you would think more critically.
Quote "That's fine. I'll pray for you."
I think you need to pray for yourself Kisses. You seem to have a very humanistic point of view. If you can explain to me why hundreds of thousands of babies murdered down through the years is not immoral then feel free. So far no one has yet accomplished that. That a Christian would have the view of life that you do really boggles my mind. You need to pray that God helps you to mature and opens your eyes to the truth that all life is important,not just yours.
