You can love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, strength and mind!

[NoahsDad]

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at5 work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said "Do not Covet" But sin, seizing the oppurtunity afforded by the commandment produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law sin is dead.
Once I was aloive apart from law, but when the commandment came sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life brought death imnstead.
For sin, seizing the oppurtunity afforded by the commandment deceived me and through the Commandment put me to death. Rom7:5-11
How can you say Paul was not talking of the Ten Commandments when he discussed the law, coveting is one of them.

Also Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to discuss with the leaders of the church which Jewish laws the Gentile converts should be asked to keep. The decision was to abstain from foodpolluted by idols, sexual immorality, from meat5 of strangled animals and blood. Three of which were to appease Jewish legalists, that left sexual immorality. Can you tell me how these Church leaders which included Jesus disciples and heard alkl of his teachings could have been so wrong?

But you miss the whole point here, it is by dying to the law Paul said that he could live for Christ. Many times he said we are not under law, and because of that sin is not our master.

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law. Rom3:31

I

As I said B4 .You need to learn to follow the subject of the WHOLE chapter and Not take a piece of it out and justify what you are saying,the very verses that you quoted totally contradict what you are trying to say further on down the chapter,
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
notice how Paul said that Sin decieved him,Not the 10 comandments,then he died......
And further more Jesus Nor any of his disciples Never once said that any one of the 10 comandments of God were disanulled by the cross,but rather the old Blood ordinances and circumcision laws were fulfilled by the Cross and resurection of Jesus the messiah,the 10 still stand but made more perfect by Jesus sacrifice,as a matter of fact Jesus made them even more important to keep,and John a Disciple of Jesus,ellaborated on this same section .....
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Now how can You say that these arent concerning the 10 comandments?
So If i listened to your theology I'd be decieved into thinking that I dont need to love my brother nor God inorder to get to heaven ,all i have to do is believe in Jesus,when in fact that the very act of believing in Jesus and His teaching is to abide in the Love of God that is Loving God with all your soul,mind,and body,and Loving your brother as yourself,these very verses say that same thing.
And call your theology out to be a lie in this verse right here...........
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So if I was you I'd research what I was teaching,And make sure I wasnt teaching to break the least of the 10.
How can you say that Paul was teaching against these very comandments when Jesus sais to the contrary.
I'm not saying to keep the blood ordinances,nor am i saying even to keep the food laws,just the 10 origional ,just as Jesus sais to do and teach.Jesus was made our sabbath,so to remember the sabath and keep it holy is to remember the sacrifice the He made for us ,and Keep His love in our hearts we have kept the sabbath,so B4 you go into the whole sabbath laws you need to read what sabath is, and it is rest, and Jesus is our rest.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Now try to stay up with me as I know you have a problem sticking with the subject and article of a chapter or chapters,Here were talking about rest or sabbath,this will tie it together....Heb.3:1-5:13
All these are pretaining to Jesus being our sabbath or rest and the High priest of our salvation entering into the temple on our behalves for remission of sins,ON THE SABBATH!!!!!!!!!

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath
So in summery,To keep the 10 comandments is to Love the Lord they God with all your heart,mind and body,And Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
1-5 love God
6-10 Love your neighbor........
Whats so hard about that?
The Flesh,Thats what makes it hard,And thats what Paul is addressing in those verses you posted.Not disanulling the 10 comandments,
Pauls Own words About the 10 comandments
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Law of sin is Not the 10 comandments but the blood ordinances,food laws ,etc,the law of God are the 10 comandments.
You need to learn the difference.

 

[livingbygrace]

As I said B4 .You need to learn to follow the subject of the WHOLE chapter and Not take a piece of it out and justify what you are saying,the very verses that you quoted totally contradict what you are trying to say further on down the chapter,
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
notice how Paul said that Sin decieved him,Not the 10 comandments,then he died......
And further more Jesus Nor any of his disciples Never once said that any one of the 10 comandments of God were disanulled by the cross,but rather the old Blood ordinances and circumcision laws were fulfilled by the Cross and resurection of Jesus the messiah,the 10 still stand but made more perfect by Jesus sacrifice,as a matter of fact Jesus made them even more important to keep,and John a Disciple of Jesus,ellaborated on this same section .....
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Now how can You say that these arent concerning the 10 comandments?
So If i listened to your theology I'd be decieved into thinking that I dont need to love my brother nor God inorder to get to heaven ,all i have to do is believe in Jesus,when in fact that the very act of believing in Jesus and His teaching is to abide in the Love of God that is Loving God with all your soul,mind,and body,and Loving your brother as yourself,these very verses say that same thing.
And call your theology out to be a lie in this verse right here...........
Mat 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So if I was you I'd research what I was teaching,And make sure I wasnt teaching to break the least of the 10.
How can you say that Paul was teaching against these very comandments when Jesus sais to the contrary.
I'm not saying to keep the blood ordinances,nor am i saying even to keep the food laws,just the 10 origional ,just as Jesus sais to do and teach.Jesus was made our sabbath,so to remember the sabath and keep it holy is to remember the sacrifice the He made for us ,and Keep His love in our hearts we have kept the sabbath,so B4 you go into the whole sabbath laws you need to read what sabath is, and it is rest, and Jesus is our rest.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Now try to stay up with me as I know you have a problem sticking with the subject and article of a chapter or chapters,Here were talking about rest or sabbath,this will tie it together....Heb.3:1-5:13
All these are pretaining to Jesus being our sabbath or rest and the High priest of our salvation entering into the temple on our behalves for remission of sins,ON THE SABBATH!!!!!!!!!

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also ofthesabbath.
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also ofthe sabbath
So in summery,To keep the 10 comandments is to Love the Lord they God with all your heart,mind and body,And Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
1-5 love God
6-10 Love your neighbor........
Whats so hard about that?
The Flesh,Thats what makes it hard,And thats what Paul is addressing in those verses you posted.Not disanulling the 10 comandments,
Pauls Own words About the 10 comandments
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Law of sin is Not the 10 comandments but the blood ordinances,food laws ,etc,the law of God are the 10 comandments.
You need to learn the difference.

I think you still fail to see. I did not say the Ten Commandments are bad, but that sin used them to condemn the Apostle Paul. He was explicit. We are not under law and he died to the law. Because he did the good laws of God(that we are required to keep) were upheld in his life. Nowhere does Paul say all the other Mosaic law is passed, but the Ten commandments themselves we are still under law for. If you can show me where Paul differentiates between the two, please do.

By abolishing in his flesh the law, with its commandments and regulations Eph2:15

Christ is the end of the law Rom10:4

Biblically it is only by not being under law that we truly can uphold the law.

Paul could not obey the Ten Commandments when he was under law, that is plain.

I am certainly not saying that we should seek to ignore nine of the Ten Commandments, they should be aspired to certainly, though an honest person would admit as we are human we often fail. But the only hope we have is because we are not under the law, so sin has lost its power in our lives.

The power of sin is the law. 1Cor15:56

I am only repeating what is written. Could you tell me why the leaders of the church in Jerusalem did not ask the Gentile converts to keep more laws than they did? Were they not an authority?

You see Gods laws are now written on our hearts and minds. This means that in our hearts we want to live as God would have us live, in such circumstances we no longer need the written law.

If I have a wrong thought, I don't have to relate it to a Commandment, I immediately feel grieved in my Spirit, because I want to live as God would have me live. If you tell people that the Ten Commandments are still in operation as a condition of getting to Heaven, please also tell people that sin used that law to condemn the Apostle Paul.

Biblically by not living under law I will better uphold the law than someone who does live under it. But you seem to find it hard to accept this. Paul said we are enslaved by sin when we are under law.

But sin shall not ber your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

 

[QuestionTime]

As I said B4 .You need to learn to follow the subject of the WHOLE chapter and Not take a piece of it out and justify what you are saying,the very verses that you quoted totally contradict what you are trying to say further on down the chapter,
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
notice how Paul said that Sin decieved him,Not the 10 comandments,then he died......
And further more Jesus Nor any of his disciples Never once said that any one of the 10 comandments of God were disanulled by the cross,but rather the old Blood ordinances and circumcision laws were fulfilled by the Cross and resurection of Jesus the messiah,the 10 still stand but made more perfect by Jesus sacrifice,as a matter of fact Jesus made them even more important to keep,and John a Disciple of Jesus,ellaborated on this same section .....
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Now how can You say that these arent concerning the 10 comandments?
So If i listened to your theology I'd be decieved into thinking that I dont need to love my brother nor God inorder to get to heaven ,all i have to do is believe in Jesus,when in fact that the very act of believing in Jesus and His teaching is to abide in the Love of God that is Loving God with all your soul,mind,and body,and Loving your brother as yourself,these very verses say that same thing.
And call your theology out to be a lie in this verse right here...........

Please consider the words of John Wesley:
Salvation by Faith: http://www.godonthe.net/wesley/jws_001.html

III. The first usual objection to this is,
1. That to preach salvation or justification, by faith only, is to preach against holiness and good works. To which a short answer might be given: "It would be so, if we spake, as some do, of a faith which was separate from these; but we speak of a faith which is not so, but productive of all good works, and all holiness."
2. But it may be of use to consider it more at large; especially since it is no new objection, but as old as St. Paul's time. For even then it was asked, "Do we not make void the law through faith?" We answer, First, all who preach not faith do manifestly make void the law; either directly and grossly, by limitations and comments that eat out all the spirit of the text; or indirectly, by not pointing out the only means whereby it is possible to perform it. Whereas, Secondly, "we establish the law," both by showing its full extent and spiritual meaning; and by calling all to that living way, whereby "the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in them." These, while they trust in the blood of Christ alone, use all the ordinances which he hath appointed, do all the "good works which he had before prepared that they should walk therein," and enjoy and manifest all holy and heavenly tempers, even the same mind that was in Christ Jesus.

Mat 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
So if I was you I'd research what I was teaching,And make sure I wasnt teaching to break the least of the 10.
How can you say that Paul was teaching against these very comandments when Jesus sais to the contrary.
I'm not saying to keep the blood ordinances,nor am i saying even to keep the food laws,just the 10 origional ,just as Jesus sais to do and teach.Jesus was made our sabbath,so to remember the sabath and keep it holy is to remember the sacrifice the He made for us ,and Keep His love in our hearts we have kept the sabbath,so B4 you go into the whole sabbath laws you need to read what sabath is, and it is rest, and Jesus is our rest.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

No one is teaching anyone that we are supposed to break the 10 commandments. I do not recall seeing anyone make such a comment in this thread. What we are doing is trying to figure how we might keep them. We've tried to discipline ourselves into obeying the 1050 commands found in the New Testament. We've failed miserably in doing so. We've stopped convincing ourselves that we will somehow eventually succeed in our efforts, and so we come to Christ looking for a solution. That is what this thread is all about.

Now try to stay up with me as I know you have a problem sticking with the subject and article of a chapter or chapters,Here were talking about rest or sabbath,this will tie it together....Heb.3:1-5:13
All these are pretaining to Jesus being our sabbath or rest and the High priest of our salvation entering into the temple on our behalves for remission of sins,ON THE SABBATH!!!!!!!!!

Mat 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also ofthesabbath.
Luk 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also ofthe sabbath
So in summery,To keep the 10 comandments is to Love the Lord they God with all your heart,mind and body,And Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
1-5 love God
6-10 Love your neighbor........
Whats so hard about that?
The Flesh,Thats what makes it hard,And thats what Paul is addressing in those verses you posted.Not disanulling the 10 comandments,
Pauls Own words About the 10 comandments
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The Law of sin is Not the 10 comandments but the blood ordinances,food laws ,etc,the law of God are the 10 comandments.
You need to learn the difference.

The Almost Christian: http://www.godonthe.net/wesley/jws_002.html

Quest

 

[livingbygrace]

Please consider the words of John Wesley:
Salvation by Faith: http://www.godonthe.net/wesley/jws_001.html

III. The first usual objection to this is,
1. That to preach salvation or justification, by faith only, is to preach against holiness and good works. To which a short answer might be given: "It would be so, if we spake, as some do, of a faith which was separate from these; but we speak of a faith which is not so, but productive of all good works, and all holiness."
2. But it may be of use to consider it more at large; especially since it is no new objection, but as old as St. Paul's time. For even then it was asked, "Do we not make void the law through faith?" We answer, First, all who preach not faith do manifestly make void the law; either directly and grossly, by limitations and comments that eat out all the spirit of the text; or indirectly, by not pointing out the only means whereby it is possible to perform it.

Great post and points.

The only way to uphold the law is to live by faith in Christ. Unless we live by faith in Christ we will never truly uphold God's good laws.

Bind up the testimony, seal up the law, among my disciples Isiaih8:16

Your covenant with death will be annulled
Your agreement with the grave will not stand
Isiaih 28:18

We know what Paul considered to bring death to him.

If anyone in their heart truly and sincerely loves God and desperately wants to please him and live for him, he does not need to live under the law. Gods laws are written on the Christians heart, therefore making them want in their hearts to obey them, there is no need for a written code.

Anyone who will live by faith in Jesus and not by law will see far more victory in their lives than they ever could under law.

And they will obey far far better the laws God would have them keep. The good laws of God were used by sin to condemn the Apostle Paul. But what victory he had when he did not live under them. He became the greatest preacher of Grace this world has ever seen and he was adamant as to how a Christian should live their life.

 

[livingbygrace]

I would like to try and explain this slightly better so there is no misunderstanding

I have a grandson, he is just over two. In my computer room there are six things he musn't touch. As soon as he comes in the room he tries to touch the things he is not supposed to, he is drawn to them. One is a telephone. He will stand there if I am on my computer with his hand hovering over the phone, staring at me. Why is he like this? There is an excitement and allure in doing wrong.
If he did not know these things were wrong he would undoubtedly sometimes go for them, but the allure would not be so great

Have any of you found in your Christian lives that there is an allure to do something you know as a Christian is wrong? I know I have, every Christian does. I can only speak for myself. The greater the wrong, the more the allure(I'm not talking about murder by the way) When I have considered that an action or thought may even rob me of my Christianity, or set me back a long time with God, the allure becomes worse. I hope people understand this.

Every time I tried to come closer to God an allurement, enticement temptation would come to me. Now the only way I can know what is wrong in God's eyes is by the law, there is no other way.
And so these enticements, wrongs kept me from ever coming close to God. As a teenager I used to sit at home wondering what was wrong with me, why could I not live as God wanted me to.
I had become a Christian at ten, and I immediately tried my hardest to live a good life. But the harder I tried the worse I failed. In the end I was consumed by lust. I had tried my hardest to live a good life, which meant obeying God's good laws. And so as Paul found the good laws of God that were supposed to give him eternal life had condemned him, sin had used them to arouse all kinds of lustful desires in Paul.

If any of you are following me here, and love God and desperately want to serve him, I would ask you a question. Imagine the law could not condemn you, imagine you do not have to fear it, fear not being good enough for God. You do not have to spend your lives struggling to be good enough and obey God's good laws. Do you not think those enticements, allurements might become less in you.
Spurgeon said that when we become Christians satan puts in us impure thoughts and much else, to dispirit us and turn us away from faith in Christ.

But if we live our lives by faith in Christ, if that is our law, then the law of sin and death can no longer condemn us. We truly are free. Would Satan try so hard to attack you and fill you with sinful thoughts if he knew that they could not rob you of God. If he knew that you would simply trust yourself to Jesus what could he gain by planting those thoughts in you?

Paul died to the law. Because he did he was able to live for Christ. His condemnation had gone, satan/sin could no longer use the good laws of Gods and his weak human nature to condemn him. He was free.

Quest you said in a post a few days ago some people are just with God out of fear of punishment. If they believed there was no hell and punishment they would immediately leave God. Anyone who feels like that should ignore what I have written. But anyone in their heart who wants Christ as their saviour and loves God, but is despairing because they do not feel they live as they should I pray will consider this. I found exactly what Paul did. So I know what he meant. I became a Christian and sin used God's good laws to condemn me.

What I did not know was that I was ignoring the cross of Christ

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing. Gal2:21

I will even give a personasl example. When I became a Christian at twenty, as I said I had become consumed by lust and masturbation. When I became a Christian and read a book on grace the masturbation did not immediatelty stop, but whereas before I had aleways felt terrible guilt and shame for the act, now I looked to Jesus, I told him I did not want to masturbate, I left it in his hands and trusted him to deal with it. Now for a few days it was really hard. Voices kept telling me in my head I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing, but I kept looking to Jesus and praised God I was saved.
In under a week I was free of it.
Now to those who say we are under the Ten Commandments I say this. If I had of lived under them then I would not have been free of masturbation, because as Paul said, I would be breaking the commadnment 'thou shalt not covet.' But as Paul said. Do we nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law.

Paul showed us how to truly uphold God's good laws. Not by our own effort and failings but by faith in Christ.

Don't give satan/sin power in your lives, live in the freedom and victory Christ died for

 

[VW]

what is often missed about the law is that it was a covenant, which described how the people would be and remain god's people.

we live under a better covenant, a new covenant, in which god does everything for the believer who receives him as lord.

in the day of that the first covenant was given, the people hardened their hearts and refused to hear god.

i pray that we learn to hear him.

 

[livingbygrace]

we live under a better covenant, a new covenant, in which god does everything for the believer who receives him as lord.

Amen

 

[NoahsDad]

If you can show me where Paul differentiates between the two, please do.

Ok then,here goes.

By abolishing in his flesh the law, with its commandments and regulations Eph2:15

you posted this one to prove that theres no difference between Ordinances and comandments, but look up above the verse you posted,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What good works that were fore ordainde?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (The covenant was sealed by circumcision)
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Ties the above verse to the gentiles and jews together thereby giving the gentiles the same promise by covenant as the circumcised by hands ) Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Theres were Paul makes the diference between Law of Ordinances and Law of the 10 comandments.....Circomcision is a Flesh ordinance,The 10 comandments are good works For ordained by God that we should walk in them.
so in recaping to show where you lost the subject,Paul is talking to the Gentiles About circomcision,Not the comandments Eph2:1-9
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Christ is the end of the law Rom10:4

Your subject starts Here in the 3rd chapter of Romans,if you ignore the begining of the subject you cant know whau the verse is talking about.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

following on down you'll see that the subject contenues and intencifies,
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Now we go on to Ch4...........
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
See? He brings in the begining of the covenant.The begining of the circumcision.
now lets go see where the subject changes from circumcision to the 10 comandments.
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Nope not yet............
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
welp seems to carry on through........you reckon he's still talkin about the Ordinances?
I'm gunna stop here cuz this post is getin long,But I"m seeing a misunderstanding between the 10 origional comandments and the Blood ordinances and statutes ....and there is a biiiiiig diference.

 

[livingbygrace]

Ok then,here goes.
you posted this one to prove that theres no difference between Ordinances and comandments, but look up above the verse you posted,
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What good works that were fore ordainde?
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (The covenant was sealed by circumcision)
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (Ties the above verse to the gentiles and jews together thereby giving the gentiles the same promise by covenant as the circumcised by hands ) Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Theres were Paul makes the diference between Law of Ordinances and Law of the 10 comandments.....Circomcision is a Flesh ordinance,The 10 comandments are good works For ordained by God that we should walk in them.
so in recaping to show where you lost the subject,Paul is talking to the Gentiles About circomcision,Not the comandments Eph2:1-9
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Your subject starts Here in the 3rd chapter of Romans,if you ignore the begining of the subject you cant know whau the verse is talking about.
Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

following on down you'll see that the subject contenues and intencifies,
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Now we go on to Ch4...........
Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
See? He brings in the begining of the covenant.The begining of the circumcision.
now lets go see where the subject changes from circumcision to the 10 comandments.
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Nope not yet............
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
welp seems to carry on through........you reckon he's still talkin about the Ordinances?
I'm gunna stop here cuz this post is getin long,But I"m seeing a misunderstanding between the 10 origional comandments and the Blood ordinances and statutes ....and there is a biiiiiig diference.

Well I am not surprised by your reply.

You certailnly have not shown Paul differentiating between the Mosaic law and the Ten Commandments in saying that the Ten Commandments are still for the Christian to be under.

You have also failed to explain why the church leaders in Jerusalem which included Christ's disciples did not ask Gentile converts to keep more than four Jewish laws, three of which were to appease Jewish legalists. The Ten Commandments were not mentioned. Obviously these disciples of Jesus made a grave error in your eyes, how could they have been so wrong?

On top of this Paul clearly explains that sin used one of the Ten Commandments to condemn him, amazing!

But if you wish to live under law that of course is your right

For those who live by the law will be judged by the law. Rom2:12

For whoever keeps the whole law of God and makes just one slip is guilty of breaking all of it James2:10

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written. Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Gal3:10&11

Rather you than me, that is all I can say

Jesus was houinded by religious people for ignoring the law, and they were responsible for having him crucified
Steven the first Christian martyr was dragged before the sanhedrin and stoned to death, by religious people. One of the rerasons? he was ignoring the law
Paul said there is an offence of the cross, circumcision(ie law) He was hounded by religious people and arrested because of them
Human nature will never change, it is the same now as it was 2000 years ago.

The Pharisees were a proud people they could not accept the grace that was on offer.
Why not? They had to believe they could take credit for attaining Heaven, by good works(albeit done publically) and their own righteousnesws

Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is from faith in Christ, the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. Phil3:9

 

[VW]

what reliance on keeping the law amounts to is a lack of trust in the finished work of jesus when he redeemed us from the law of sin and death. the question is asked, "how will christians know what to do without the law as a guide."

without the spirit in the life of the believer, without a trusting relationship in christ's leading and even growing us through the spirit into the nature of god, we are left with some choices, which to my mind are all against god. we can see that we are free of the law, and live in sin, (because without the holy spirit's continuing work in us, we will live in sin,) or we can try to live under the law, using the law to judge ourselves and others, while still living in sin.

for the scripture has proclaimed that if it is not of faith, then it is sin.

the scriptures proclaim that for those who are spiritual, who are in christ, all things are lawful.

as jesus walked this earth, he was following a law which was greater than that law through moses. he walked in the law of god's love, because god so loved the world, that he gave his son. the religious who knew god's commandments were always seeking to condemn jesus, because the only way that they could understand the law was literally. but the law is spiritual, which means it is for the spiritual, actually describes the spiritual, and is death to the fleshly.

those who are spiritual do not follow the law, because how can one follow the description of themselves? in the case of us who are born of god, the law of moses is just the barest shadow of a description of the standard we uphold by who and what we are.the reality of the righteousness we have by being born of god surpasses anything that has ever been written, or that could be written. words cannot accurately describe the righteousness which is ours by having the love of god in us, as ours, by the holy spirit.

 

[livingbygrace]

what reliance on keeping the law amounts to is a lack of trust in the finished work of jesus when he redeemed us from the law of sin and death. the question is asked, "how will christians know what to do without the law as a guide."

without the spirit in the life of the believer, without a trusting relationship in christ's leading and even growing us through the spirit into the nature of god, we are left with some choices, which to my mind are all against god. we can see that we are free of the law, and live in sin, (because without the holy spirit's continuing work in us, we will live in sin,) or we can try to live under the law, using the law to judge ourselves and others, while still living in sin.

for the scripture has proclaimed that if it is not of faith, then it is sin.

the scriptures proclaim that for those who are spiritual, who are in christ, all things are lawful.

as jesus walked this earth, he was following a law which was greater than that law through moses. he walked in the law of god's love, because god so loved the world, that he gave his son. the religious who knew god's commandments were always seeking to condemn jesus, because the only way that they could understand the law was literally. but the law is spiritual, which means it is for the spiritual, actually describes the spiritual, and is death to the fleshly.

those who are spiritual do not follow the law, because how can one follow the description of themselves? in the case of us who are born of god, the law of moses is just the barest shadow of a description of the standard we uphold by who and what we are.the reality of the righteousness we have by being born of god surpasses anything that has ever been written, or that could be written. words cannot accurately describe the righteousness which is ours by having the love of god in us, as ours, by the holy spirit.

Good points

If people attempt to follow the law Biblically and it is mentioned a lot sin will enslave them
The tragedy is anyone can be baptised in the Spirit if they believe
Did you receive the spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After begining with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort. Gal3:3

But how many will accept such a grace as this?
I truly believe it is tragic.

 

[VW]

Good points

If people attempt to follow the law Biblically and it is mentioned a lot sin will enslave them
The tragedy is anyone can be baptised in the Spirit if they believe
Did you receive the spirit by observing the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After begining with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort. Gal3:3

But how many will accept such a grace as this?
I truly believe it is tragic.

i do to, believe that it is tragic. and the spirit himself is saddened by the way god's people are deceived into accepting a lessor grace.

truly, if we would know god, we must seek him in the way he has provided in christ jesus, by his spirit.

and truly. knowing god is grace.

the holy spirit is god in us and with us.

 

[QuestionTime]

I will even give a personasl example. When I became a Christian at twenty, as I said I had become consumed by lust and masturbation. When I became a Christian and read a book on grace the masturbation did not immediatelty stop, but whereas before I had aleways felt terrible guilt and shame for the act, now I looked to Jesus, I told him I did not want to masturbate, I left it in his hands and trusted him to deal with it. Now for a few days it was really hard. Voices kept telling me in my head I could not be a Christian and do what I was doing, but I kept looking to Jesus and praised God I was saved.
In under a week I was free of it.
Now to those who say we are under the Ten Commandments I say this. If I had of lived under them then I would not have been free of masturbation, because as Paul said, I would be breaking the commadnment 'thou shalt not covet.' But as Paul said. Do we nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law.

Paul showed us how to truly uphold God's good laws. Not by our own effort and failings but by faith in Christ.

Don't give satan/sin power in your lives, live in the freedom and victory Christ died for

Now this is an amazing testimony LivingByGrace! Wow!

Let me ask you, did you have an experience similar to what people call the Second Blessing? An experience where you felt God saved you all over again, just like He did at Justification?

I know at Justification most people have a special experience that causes them to know God did a work in them. I also know that proponents of Entire Sanctification also experience a second special experience. Heck, even a friend of mine had a second experience, and he doesn't really believe in Entire Sanctification. Funny thing is the guy is so Holy, Godly and humble, yet he doesn't believe exactly what I tell him has happened to him.

I know the Calvinist church I attended for a short time, they always mocked Wesley's second blessing. However, they spoke of the results of revival in the hearts of Christians, and what they claimed were the results of revival were exactly the same experiences of people from the Wesleyan tradition. Basically, they just bicker over terms and names, while talking about the same thing.

Quest

 

[QuestionTime]

Ok then,here goes.

John Wesley (Primarily responsible for what was possibly the largest revival in history) (We shall know them by their fruits)

http://www.godonthe.net/wesley/jws_034.html

2. But a careful observer of the Apostle's discourse will not be content with these light explications of it. And the more he weighs the words, the more convinced he will be, that St. Paul, by the law mentioned in this chapter, does not mean either the ancient law of Rome, or the ceremonial law of Moses. This will clearly appear to all who attentively consider the tenor of his discourse. He begins the chapter, "Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law,)" to them who have been instructed therein from their youth, "that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (What! the law of Rome only, or the ceremonial law? No, surely; but the moral law.) "For," to give a plain instance, "the woman which hath an husband is bound by the "moral" law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law: so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." From this particular instance the Apostle proceeds to draw that general conclusion: "Wherefore, my brethren," by a plain parity of reason, "ye also are become dead to the law," the whole Mosaic institution, "by the body of Christ," offered for you, and bringing you under a new dispensation: "That ye should" without any blame "be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead;" and hath thereby given proof of his authority to make the change; "that we should bring forth fruit unto God." And this we can do now, whereas before we could not: "for when we were in the flesh" -- under the power of the flesh, that is, of corrupt nature, which was necessarily the case till we knew the power of Christ's resurrection, "the motions of sins, which were by the law," -- which were shown and inflamed by the Mosaic law, not conquered, "did work in our members," -- broke out various ways, "to bring forth fruit unto death." But now we are delivered from the law;" from that whole moral, as well as ceremonial economy; "that being dead whereby we were held;" -- that entire institution being now as it were dead, and having no more authority over us than the husband, when dead, hath over his wife: "That we should serve him," -- who died for us and rose again, "in newness of spirit;" -- in a new spiritual dispensation; "and not in the oldness of the letter;" -- with a bare outward service, according to the letter of the Mosaic institution (Rom. 7:1-6.)

I recommend again that you read Wesley's sermon: "The Almost Christian" in order to see which level of faith you are currently living in.

Quest

 

[livingbygrace]

Now this is an amazing testimony LivingByGrace! Wow!

Let me ask you, did you have an experience similar to what people call the Second Blessing? An experience where you felt God saved you all over again, just like He did at Justification?

I know at Justification most people have a special experience that causes them to know God did a work in them. I also know that proponents of Entire Sanctification also experience a second special experience. Heck, even a friend of mine had a second experience, and he doesn't really believe in Entire Sanctification. Funny thing is the guy is so Holy, Godly and humble, yet he doesn't believe exactly what I tell him has happened to him.

I know the Calvinist church I attended for a short time, they always mocked Wesley's second blessing. However, they spoke of the results of revival in the hearts of Christians, and what they claimed were the results of revival were exactly the same experiences of people from the Wesleyan tradition. Basically, they just bicker over terms and names, while talking about the same thing.

Quest

Hi

When I became a Christian at 20, the thing that really hit me was that God loved me and accepted me as I was. Always before I had believed I must become worthy enough for him, it is hard to describe what it is like to know after so many years you are loved and secure as you are, even with all your faults and shortcomings.
I believe that it is only when we know God loves us with an unconditional love which does not depend on us reaching near sainthood in a certain space of time that we can truly in our hearts love God back. If we think that unless we can live a good enough life God won't love or reward us, and we are in dangers of the fires of hell I do not believe we can have a truly loving relationship with God. A relationship built on fear of hell is not a secure, loving one
I'm not sure what you mean by entire sanctificastion, if you mean becoming perfect and without sin, I do not believe that is achieveable on earth, we are still humans.
To me there are 2 maybe three parts to our Christian lives. Firstly we need to cling to Jesus and learn simple faith and let go and let him change us in the Spirits power and deliver us from the deep rooted sin in our lives. The temptation of course is to try and do that job ourselves.
When we have been delivered from deep rooted, vice like sin we are ready to move on to the next5 stage, eating solid food as Paul said, and growing in maturity. We find ourselves loving others more, being sensitive to the spirit etc. And we have started to learn the value of a life of faith in Jesus. We can also hopefully be of use to him in whatever service he would have for us.
We are now totally changed, but to say we would never sin at all I do not believe. But it shouldn't be sin that is leading us away from God.
If I read the beatitudes I am always painfully aware of how far short I still am of everything Christ taught us to be. But as Paul said, forgetting what is behind us, and going onward towards the goal. When I do see how far short I still am of perfection I think of all Christ has done for me and rest assured.
But the vital part to me is the initial stage of Christianity, we must learn to live in faith. If when we became Christians all our deep rooted problems immediately vanished, we would not learn faith. It is in our trials and sin that we learn it, I believe.

I don't know if this would interest you. But in the 1970s I read two books Prison to Praise and Power in Praise by Merlin Carothers. You may still be able to get them from a Christian book shop. He is an American. When I became a Christian a man prayed with me and suggested I read these books, they helped me no end. I don't really want to explain the message of the books, it may put you off rteading them, but why not ask God if it would be a good idea for you to look at them

God Bless. I have been praying for you. A lot will not accept grace, they are offended by the true message of the cross, I know you are not. And God knows that too, He will get you where He wants you to be, just let him. I notice you have said you try 5to be more humble, and other things too, that is wonderful, but in my owen life I ask Jesus to change me in these areas I know I would fail, and we can get stressed out and put much pressure on ourselves while Jesuis is holding out his asrms, pleading with us to ask him to change us in these areas. We have to quit our own reliance on ourselves and let him do his job in us

Take care

 

[livingbygrace]

John Wesley (Primarily responsible for what was possibly the largest revival in history) (We shall know them by their fruits)

http://www.godonthe.net/wesley/jws_034.html

2. But a careful observer of the Apostle's discourse will not be content with these light explications of it. And the more he weighs the words, the more convinced he will be, that St. Paul, by the law mentioned in this chapter, does not mean either the ancient law of Rome, or the ceremonial law of Moses. This will clearly appear to all who attentively consider the tenor of his discourse. He begins the chapter, "Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law,)" to them who have been instructed therein from their youth, "that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (What! the law of Rome only, or the ceremonial law? No, surely; but the moral law.) "For," to give a plain instance, "the woman which hath an husband is bound by the "moral" law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law: so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." From this particular instance the Apostle proceeds to draw that general conclusion: "Wherefore, my brethren," by a plain parity of reason, "ye also are become dead to the law," the whole Mosaic institution, "by the body of Christ," offered for you, and bringing you under a new dispensation: "That ye should" without any blame "be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead;" and hath thereby given proof of his authority to make the change; "that we should bring forth fruit unto God." And this we can do now, whereas before we could not: "for when we were in the flesh" -- under the power of the flesh, that is, of corrupt nature, which was necessarily the case till we knew the power of Christ's resurrection, "the motions of sins, which were by the law," -- which were shown and inflamed by the Mosaic law, not conquered, "did work in our members," -- broke out various ways, "to bring forth fruit unto death." But now we are delivered from the law;" from that whole moral, as well as ceremonial economy; "that being dead whereby we were held;" -- that entire institution being now as it were dead, and having no more authority over us than the husband, when dead, hath over his wife: "That we should serve him," -- who died for us and rose again, "in newness of spirit;" -- in a new spiritual dispensation; "and not in the oldness of the letter;" -- with a bare outward service, according to the letter of the Mosaic institution (Rom. 7:1-6.)

I have just read this, thanks for posting it, I am copying it to my computer. I have been told by those more versed in OT scriture than me that the mosaic law was 'one whole law' You obey everything in it if you live under the smallest part of it

 

[VW]

the law was all one law. at the first attempt by the lord to communicate with the people, he (the lord) spoke what we call the ten commandments to the people, and they hardened their hearts and did not wish to hear his voice. so god added to the law, making the requirements steeper and more restricting, adding a priesthood and ordinances for worship. all of this composed the covenant that god enacted with the people of israel. all of the body of law was required for them to be and remain the people of god.

in one of the prophets it is actually stated by god that he gave them some commandments that were not good, because he knew that they would not keep them.

 

[livingbygrace]

the law was all one law. at the first attempt by the lord to communicate with the people, he (the lord) spoke what we call the ten commandments to the people, and they hardened their hearts and did not wish to hear his voice. so god added to the law, making the requirements steeper and more restricting, adding a priesthood and ordinances for worship. all of this composed the covenant that god enacted with the people of israel. all of the body of law was required for them to be and remain the people of god.

in one of the prophets it is actually stated by god that he gave them some commandments that were not good, because he knew that they would not keep them.

thats really interesting, thanks for telling me vw

 

[VW]

thats really interesting, thanks for telling me vw

realizing the above, hebrews 10:1-3 says;

for the law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. (grace) otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sin? but in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
and again, hebrews 3:7-12;

therefore, just as the holy spirit says,

"today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your heart as when they provoked me,
as in the day of trail in the wilderness,
where your fathers tried me by testing me,
and saw my works for forty years.
therefore i was angry with this generation,
and said, 'they always go astray in their heart;
and they did not know my ways'
as i swore in my wrath,
'they shall not enter into my rest.'"

take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil heart, in falling away from the living god.

and even again, exodus 20:18-19

and all the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. then they said to moses, "speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not god speak to us, lest we die."

the unbelieving heart.

 

[livingbygrace]

realizing the above, hebrews 10:1-3 says;

for the law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near. (grace) otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sin? but in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
and again, hebrews 3:7-12;

therefore, just as the holy spirit says,

"today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your heart as when they provoked me,
as in the day of trail in the wilderness,
where your fathers tried me by testing me,
and saw my works for forty years.
therefore i was angry with this generation,
and said, 'they always go astray in their heart;
and they did not know my ways'
as i swore in my wrath,
'they shall not enter into my rest.'"

take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, in falling away from the living god.

and even again, exodus 20:18-19

and all the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. then they said to moses, "speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not god speak to us, lest we die."

the unbelieving heart.

Good verses

I have been reading Galatians tonight (Living Bible Translation)

Did you receive the Holy Spirit by trying to keep the Jewish laws? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you heard about Christ and trusted him to save you. Gal 3:2

And all of us Christians can have the promised Holy Spirit through this faith Gal3:14

The amount of People I have seen continually praying for the Baptiusm of the Holy Spirt, believing they don't receive it because they are not 'good enough' to receive it. Baloney, it is by faith we receive it, not by working ourself into some saintly state.

I ask you again, does God give you the power of the Holy Spirit and work miracles among you as a result of you trying to obey the Jewish laws?. No of course not. It is when you believe in Christ and fully trust in him. Gal3:5

People are too ingrained in concentrating on living a good enough life, they cannot let go and simply trust Jesus. They base their Christian life on how good people they are, and most spend their time trying to be good enough, which has to be law keeping even if they don't realise it. We can only make God happy one way, by trusting in Christ

If we could be saved by His laws then God would not have to give us a different way to get out of the grip of sin, for the scriptures insist we are all its prisoners the only way out is through faith in Jesus Christ, the way of escape is open to all who believe him. Gal3:21&22

This is getting monotonous. We receive the Spirit by faith and not trying to live a good life, we receive freedom from sin, by faith and not striving to live a good life, and miracles are worked among us if we believe the message of faith in the Son of God, not by trying to be good. Because weather people see it or not, trying to be good is trying to obey laws. The Bible is so plain, but people are stuck in a rut ingrainerd in their minds is that we must strive to be good. No, we must trust Jesus, He is the only way out of our sin.