Does being left behind during the rapture mean you're eternally condemned

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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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The AC kills all humans W/O the mark.

No such thing as "surviving /going through" the GT,for Christians unless they take the mark. Half the church is already into self worship anyway. The transition will go quite smoothly for the false sheep.

Believers left behind are martyred or take the mark.
See mat 25
Where does it say the AC will kill all those who don't take the mark?

It's those who won't worship the "image of the beast" who are killed. The "mark" is one of three things you need in order to buy or sell. Please try to get your facts straight good buddy.

...that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. [SUP]16 [/SUP]He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or[SUP][/SUP] the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
 
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Flip

Guest
I'm not sure why your trying to nit-pic this? But if you look at it from the entire perspective, it works hand in hand. Ask yourself, how will a person show this worship of the image or the beast? The same principle holds as those with faith in GOD must have works during the Tribulation to prove to GOD that they trust HIM. That work may be giving their life for HIM.

Those that desire to show this worship to the beast, do so, by taking the mark. This is their work to show their belief in the beast is real, by taking his mark. Why are you trying to complicate this matter ?
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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And then there will be many... who will be found dining with the coming pseudo-Christ when our Lord Jesus does show up at the end of the great tribulation. What was it Jesus said to the five foolish virgins, "I never knew you, get away from Me."
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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I'm not sure why your trying to nit-pic this? But if you look at it from the entire perspective, it works hand in hand. Ask yourself, how will a person show this worship of the image or the beast? The same principle holds as those with faith in GOD must have works during the Tribulation to prove to GOD that they trust HIM. That work may be giving their life for HIM.

Those that desire to show this worship to the beast, do so, by taking the mark. This is their work to show their belief in the beast is real, by taking his mark. Why are you trying to complicate this matter ?
Hello Flip,

It is not by works that the great tribulation saints prove themselves to God. For no one can be saved by works. It is because they will keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God, which is faith and persecution and death will be the result of that faith. The works that follow them is their continuing in faith in even in the face of death. They will be in the same position as the apostles and the 1st century church was, who died because of their faith, not works.

Also, regarding those who receive the mark of the beast, it will not only be an alignment of oneself in worship of the beast, but also the only way that they will save their lives. For no one will be able to pay their mortgage, buy food, gas or pay utilities without having that mark. In fact, a person during that time will not even be able to be apart of the financial system without that mark. Therefore, it will also be to save their own lives as to why they will receive it.
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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God will deal with these false ones who teach His people to fly... to save their souls.

Ezek 13:17-23
17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

18 And say, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

I
n the Hebrew, that idea of sewing pillows to all armholes is about these false preachers who sew coverings over the outstretched hands of our Heavenly Father. They try to hide Him.


19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

This is also what they do, lie to His people for money (represented by the barley and pieces of bread). They slay the souls that should not die, and think to save alive the souls that should not live, all through their lying to His people. We see this kind of thing easily today on TV with the all the false prosperity preachers, which just so happen to be Pre-trib in the majority. Having an 8 million dollar house and a fleet of airplanes from people's donations, and telling the believer that if they're not wealthy, then they're doing something wrong, is not going to go well when our Lord Jesus appears a second time.

20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

22
Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:

23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV
 
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Flip

Guest
Hello Brother, Here is my understanding of salvation in the Church age (Age of Grace ) as opposed to non-Church Age salvation.

[FONT=&quot]Old Testament believers had to keep the commandments as evidence of their faith in a coming redeemer. The sacrifices they performed at the Temple were not sufficient in and of themselves to set aside their sins. They also had to believe those sacrifices represented the coming Messiah.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Those who come to faith after the Church is gone will also have to keep the commandments and believe in Jesus (Revelation 14:12, Revelation 16:15) .[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This will be similar to the faith plus works doctrines practiced by some groups today.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Neither the pre-Church nor the post-Church believers are promised Eternal Security. This is a blessing only the Church enjoys. I believe the seven churches are representational of the Church Age as well as being literal congregations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ephesus, Smyrna, and Pergamum disappeared by the end of 4th Century. The remaining four are all represented on Earth today. A careful reading shows that Thyatira (Catholic) and Sardis (main line Protestant) contain some who will go in the rapture and some who won’t. All from Philadelphia (Evangelical) will go in the rapture while none from Laodicea (Apostate) will.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That being the case, some from Thyatira, some from Sardis, and all from Laodicea will be subject to post-church salvation conditions. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]During the Church Age, God asks people to believe solely by faith (John 6:28-29), and promises blessings beyond those of any other group to those who do. But once Daniel’s 70th week begins, God’s supernatural power will once again be on display for all to see. During that time belief in Him will be as much by evidence as by faith, like it was in the Old Testament. Believing in what you see is not as commendable to God as is believing what you don’t see, hence the different destiny of Tribulation believers from that of the Church.[/FONT]
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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I'm not sure why your trying to nit-pic this? But if you look at it from the entire perspective, it works hand in hand. Ask yourself, how will a person show this worship of the image or the beast? The same principle holds as those with faith in GOD must have works during the Tribulation to prove to GOD that they trust HIM. That work may be giving their life for HIM.

Those that desire to show this worship to the beast, do so, by taking the mark. This is their work to show their belief in the beast is real, by taking his mark. Why are you trying to complicate this matter ?
It sounds like you don't know what the Beast is and what the "mark" is? The Beast is the re-vamped Islamic kingdom to the north of Israel. It is the head that was mortally wounded, yet lived which was the Ottoman Empire which is now reforming. To "take its mark" simply means you belong to this kingdom and have sworn alliance to it. Those who do will face eternal flames for Islam is the Harlot religion carried by the Beast. Islam is Satan's great copycat religion with him as God (Allah) and his false prophet, Muhammad.

Your comments about a different set of rules for salvation during the Great Tribulation (of Israel which is where it takes place) is utter hogwash. Christ comes once, after the Great Tribulation of Israel. When He returns, he doubts if he will really find faith left on the earth (Luke 18:8). You see, the church falls away even before the Man of Sin is revealed (2 Thes 2). It is falling away now.

Churches are being replaced by mosques all over Europe. In the US, church membership is in rapid decline as many Christian parents do not require that their children come to church. Look at those attending church today, they are people my age and older. The youth % is way down.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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For no one will be able to pay their mortgage, buy food, gas or pay utilities without having that mark. In fact, a person during that time will not even be able to be apart of the financial system without that mark. Therefore, it will also be to save their own lives as to why they will receive it.
The above is also a false statement. Please read the text careful Brother Ahwatukee.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

You need to meet only one of the three things. 1) mark, or 2) name of beast, or 3) number of the beast's name.

The mere fact that there are three options rules out your microchip theory as that would be your only option. The problem you are having is you have seen too many Tim LaHaye movies (may he rest in peace).

What is the mark of the Beast?
What is the name of the Beast?
What does it mean to have the number of the Beast's name?

“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [SUP]10 [/SUP]he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

What does it mean to receive the "mark of the Beast's name?"

You see they are marked already. No Christian can receive this mark so no need to worry. How do I know? It says so right here:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We Christians have our names in the Book of Life. The mark of the Beast is only for those who "dwell on the earth." We Christians do not "dwell on the earth."

Phi 3:20: [SUP]18 [/SUP]For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [SUP]19 [/SUP]whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

John 3 says this:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]36 [/SUP]He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Muslims, followers of Islam, do not believe in the Son, therefore the above applies to them. They are of the earth, dwelling on the earth and condemned already. While those of us who are chosen are Sons of the Kingdom already!!

Revelation is a very spiritual book with lots of spiritual meanings. Too many fail to see the beauty of this and instead see Revelation from ground level as if it was nothing more than a work written by man with every word to be taken literally. What a shame. So many are missing out on so many spiritual truths. So sad really.
 
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Flip

Guest
Sadly to say, your version of the view of Scripture ignores too many Scriptures that contradict your view as most post-tribber do when they think they know it all. Between the Psalms 83 war and the muslim nations involved next to and near Israel and the Ezekiel 38 / 39 war with the rest of the further away muslim nations from Israel with the muslim world being destroyed by GOD as GOD says in Ezekiel 39 which illuminates any chance of a muslim beast.

I'm sorry your so ignorant of all Scripture, but you will learn the hard way once you enter the time of Daniel's 70th week. You'll learn the 1st resurrection started with JESUS as the 1st fruits and followed by the Rapture and finally ending with those resurrected during and at the end of Revelation. You have the right to be wrong. I don't mind. I'll wave good bye to you on my way up. You're going to get what you want and demand.

And salvation is not the same now, during the Age of Grace where we believers don't need to have any works to prove our belief, but only true trust and faith in the finished work of CHRIST. This will end at the Rapture when the world is taken back into Old Testament salvation with works part of the process of showing a person believes. Even death might be required by GOD to prove a person believes.

Most Christians don't understand the difference in how these Gospels differ but they are real and in the Bible. Did you know that the only books meant for the Church are the books of Paul. The rest are to the Jews and the tribulation saints. You've got the Gospel of Peter, the Kingdom Gospel and the Gospel of Paul. They are not the same. The Bible was meant to all of mankind, but not for all of us. Some of it is meant to specific people as Paul tells us who he wrote to and he was the Apostle to The Gentiles of the Church Age. Here's a thorough teaching on this subject thats much better than I can give you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AxAou-Pn6g
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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One thing that causes so much confusion about this subject is the use of the term 'Rapture' It is not a Biblical term. The Bible speaks of the Resurrection and the gathering together of the body of Christ. I do not believe in the Pre Trib Rapture
I believe that at his second coming Christ will send his Angels to gather his elect. We will meet him in the air and will be
taken to a place on Earth, probably somewhere near Jerusalem. This is prefigured in Exodus where Israel was protected
from the plagues that Egypt suffered. Noah and his Family were also protected from the flood. God didnt take them off the Earth and Jesus prayed that his Disciples would not be taken from the world but protected from the evil one.
 
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Flip

Guest
The word Rapture should not confuse anyone with a thinking brain. It means "catching away" and or "caught up suddenly" as harpázō means in the Greek. Look it up in strongs #726. = Strong's Concordance ... 726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, caught up suddenly,

Post tribbers always come up with lame excuses to deny what Paul teaches us about the Catching Away.
For you to say "
'Rapture' It is not a Biblical term. " This only shows how ignorant you are. The Latin Bible had the word "Raptus" in it where Paul speaks of the Catching Away, so the word Rapture was used in the Bible that was used for over 1400 years in Europe. It just depends on which Bible your using to see it used. The KJV translators chose the words "Caught Up" instead of Rapture but they mean the same thing. Sir.

There are NO bible verses that show the trib saints will be protected. In fact Rev says you will all lose your heads. No protection. STOP DAYDREAMING and learn the true facts.

Your examples fall way short. The only example you'll find in the OT is where Enoch who walked with GOD as the Church does was removed by GOD BEFORE THE FLOOD. Enoch was Raptured as the Church will be.
Noah represents Israel who was protected through the Wrath of GOD (the flood) so that a remnant of 1/3rd will be saved and alive for them to call on the Name of JESUS to save them at the end. 8/21/16
 
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PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Sadly to say, your version of the view of Scripture ignores too many Scriptures that contradict your view as most post-tribber do when they think they know it all. Between the Psalms 83 war and the muslim nations involved next to and near Israel and the Ezekiel 38 / 39 war with the rest of the further away muslim nations from Israel with the muslim world being destroyed by GOD as GOD says in Ezekiel 39 which illuminates any chance of a muslim beast.
Did you mean to say, "eliminates?" This is precisely why the Beast is carrying the harlot Islam. It is in fact Muslim nations led by Russia who attack Israel in Eze 38-39. Jesus calls this attack, "the Great Tribulation." Jeremiah calls this attack, "the Time of Jacob's Trouble." Ezekiel refers to the attackers as "Gog, from the land of Magog." Daniel calls the invaders, "the King of the North." Joel refers to the attackers as, "A nation without number, with teeth as a Lion." John calls them the "Beast of the Sea." John also says the beast is "like a leopard with feet like a bear and mouth like a lion," the lion part agreeing with Joel. Regardless of what you call these nations who attack Israel or what you call the battle, these nations are largely Islamic with Russia most likely leading them. The "beast" is in fact a collection of nations as it clear from the imagery. Their religion is in fact Islam although the radical version of it that we are seeing today.

The Wrath of God, AKA "the Day of the Lord" is in response to this attack that nearly wipes out Israel (2/3 of it according to Zechariah). God destroys these Muslim nations as we are told everywhere like Joel 2, Eze 38, Zec 14, Dan 7, 2 Thes 1, Rev 18-19, etc. The sequence is always the attack first (AKA GREAT TRIBULATION) followed by the WRATH of GOD in response. The nations are named in many instances such as Eze 38 and Psm 83. In other places the location is given as from the north such as in Rev 13, Jer 51, Dan 11, etc. Not sure what you are getting?

I'm sorry your so ignorant of all Scripture, but you will learn the hard way once you enter the time of Daniel's 70th week.
What? Daniel's 70th week is over, long ago in the past. It ended half way through when Messiah was cut off at week 69.5. You must be one of those people who invent a 2,000 year gap not taught by Daniel. Daniel tells us that 70 weeks were determined, not 69 weeks plus 2,000 years then another week.

You simply fail to realize the meaning of Dan 9:27 just as every pre-tribber fails to understand, which is why you are pre-tribbers, sadly, no offense to you personally. It was Jesus who "confirms the covenant with many" and "put an end to offerings and sacrifices." You think a future AntiChrist does this, what a sham and a shame that you missed the beauty of what Christ did on the Cross. Don't believe me? Here's proof. Look at the key words in use by Daniel then later explained in the NT:

Daniel 9:27

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Christ ministry lasted 3.5 years or half a week. COMPARE TO THE BELOW. It fits perfectly!!

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

Matthew 26:28
For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Romans 11:27
For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”

Hebrews 7:22
by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Ephesians 5:2
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.

You see Christ made a new covenant with many (the world) when He took away ours sins at the Cross forever doing away with the need and practice of offerings and sacrifices although they continued until the temple was destroyed 40 years later. Sad you can't see this.

You'll learn the 1st resurrection started with JESUS as the 1st fruits and followed by the Rapture and finally ending with those resurrected during and at the end of Revelation. You have the right to be wrong. I don't mind. I'll wave good bye to you on my way up. You're going to get what you want and demand.
I already know that the first resurrection was Jesus. The Rapture happens after the physical Resurrection. Didn't you bother to read 1 Thes 4? Paul tells us that the dead rise first. The resurrection is located at the very last day of the planet. Jesus tells us this 4 times in John, three times in John 6. Martha understood this in John 11. When is Daniel told that the resurrection happens? It's right here:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

Just how many more days do you think there are after the end of days?

And salvation is not the same now, during the Age of Grace where we believers don't need to have any works to prove our belief, but only true trust and faith in the finished work of CHRIST. This will end at the Rapture when the world is taken back into Old Testament salvation with works part of the process of showing a person believes. Even death might be required by GOD to prove a person believes.

Most Christians don't understand the difference in how these Gospels differ but they are real and in the Bible. Did you know that the only books meant for the Church are the books of Paul. The rest are to the Jews and the tribulation saints. You've got the Gospel of Peter, the Kingdom Gospel and the Gospel of Paul. They are not the same. The Bible was meant to all of mankind, but not for all of us. Some of it is meant to specific people as Paul tells us who he wrote to and he was the Apostle to The Gentiles of the Church Age. Here's a thorough teaching on this subject thats much better than I can give you.
You love making stuff up as you go, huh?
 
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PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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The word Rapture should not confuse anyone with a thinking brain. It means "catching away" and or "caught up suddenly" as harpázō means in the Greek. Look it up in strongs #726. = Strong's Concordance ... 726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively, caught up suddenly,
I agree this happens, it's the WHEN where we disagree. You have saints and Christ bouncing around like a pinball. Only once is there a rapture and it happens just after the resurrection, the physical one, which is clearly located at the last day as I showed you.

You (and all pre-tribbers) are so obsessed with the Great Tribulation and your desire to avoid it that you don't even realize that the Great Tribulation is aimed at Israel. Who does Christ tell to flee in Mat 24? Does He say anything in Mat 24 about coming to take the Church off the planet in this passage before the GT starts? Of course not. Want to know why? Because only those in Judea are told to flee. It is Israel which comes under attack in the Great Tribulation. This is as clear as the nose on your face.

What you (and all pre-tribbers) need to be worried about is what I call, "the FALSE CHRIST EVENT." Satan planted the pre-trib rapture nonsense in the church back in 1830 so that when he comes he can deceive many Christians into thinking he's the Christ. Those who go out get slaughtered. Just as Adam and Eve were tempted, the Christ was tempted before He started His ministry, so all Christians will be tested/tempted. As we see at the first trumpet all green grass and a third of the trees are burned up having failed the test. Do you know what "green grass" and "trees" are? Have you studied OT symbolism and John's use of it in Revelation? Do you not know where the Great Multitude in heaven comes from and why they were hungry, thirsty, ashamed and crying?

There are NO bible verses that show the trib saints will be protected. In fact Rev says you will all lose your heads. No protection. STOP DAYDREAMING and learn the true facts.
Who says anything about Trib Saints being protected? We are all Tribulation Saints once the Great Tribulation starts, by the way. You don't have to worry about the Great Tribulation of Israel unless you are visiting or live there. But you do need to worry about this:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [SUP]25 [/SUP]See, I have told you beforehand. [SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

Hint: Those "many" who Christ says are deceived are NOT the ELECT. They are the green grass. Yes, they are saved but they were fooled by the false Christ. Christ tells us 3 times in Mat 24 about this deception. But He also tells us how to be protected from it doesn't He? DO NOT BELIEVE IT and DO NOT GO OUT! Not too hard to follow, right? If you don't go out when they tell you Christ is here or there, you will be fine. No need to fly you off the planet. This test is for all Christians alive at the appointed time. I know you have never heard anything like this before but this event is real and will come without warning.

However, if we gird our waist with the truth and know our Bible we will be fine. Just remember what Christ says next and you will be fine.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Christ is saying that when He comes, it will be as fast as a bolt of lightening. So don't listen to anyone who says Christ is here. Paul tells us pretty clearly that this happens BEFORE the real Christ returns.

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, [SUP]2 [/SUP]not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed...

Where you able to pick up the correct sequence? It agrees with Mat 24. The Man of Sin is revealed first claiming to be Christ or God or the Mahdi or Buddha, whatever you have been waiting for. Paul warns us to not be deceived by this Man of Sin as Christ will not come until after the falling away and Man of Sin is revealed. The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is one of the "any means" by which many will be deceived.

So now you know, don't fall for it.
 
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tanakh

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According to John Hagee we have four days to wait before we find out. The Antichrist is making his debut next Tuesday,according to Hagee and all Pre Tribbers should vanish on Monday. CC will lose some key contributors.
I hope they all have their bags packed.
 

DP

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Sep 27, 2015
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Sadly to say, your version of the view of Scripture ignores too many Scriptures that contradict your view as most post-tribber do when they think they know it all.
That's a wildly false statement. Provide us with just ONE Bible Scripture that 'proves' a Pre-trib Rapture!


Between the Psalms 83 war and the muslim nations involved next to and near Israel and the Ezekiel 38 / 39 war with the rest of the further away muslim nations from Israel with the muslim world being destroyed by GOD as GOD says in Ezekiel 39 which illuminates any chance of a muslim beast.
I'm inclined to agree with you on that, Plainword is more into the tenets of Preterism or Historicism which apparently in his circle left Bible doctrine about the coming Antichrist being a false Jewish Messiah that Jesus showed (Matt.24:23-26 with "false Christs" in the Greek which is actually pseudochristos).


I'm sorry your so ignorant of all Scripture, but you will learn the hard way once you enter the time of Daniel's 70th week. You'll learn the 1st resurrection started with JESUS as the 1st fruits and followed by the Rapture and finally ending with those resurrected during and at the end of Revelation. You have the right to be wrong. I don't mind. I'll wave good bye to you on my way up. You're going to get what you want and demand.
Sorry to have to correct you, but we all will be here during the great tribulation, if we don't die of some cause beforehand. The idea of Jesus coming to gather His Church prior to the great tribulation simply is nowhere written in God's Word. It is a doctrine of men, started in certain churches in Great Britain with the Edward Irving and John Darby Brethren movements. They tried to ADD another separate coming by our Lord Jesus which is not written. Jesus returns one time, and one time only, at the end of the tribulation to gather His Church and go to Jerusalem, where He ascended to Heaven from (Acts 1; Zechariah 14).

And salvation is not the same now, during the Age of Grace where we believers don't need to have any works to prove our belief, but only true trust and faith in the finished work of CHRIST. This will end at the Rapture when the world is taken back into Old Testament salvation with works part of the process of showing a person believes. Even death might be required by GOD to prove a person believes.
We should have works to show our Faith, for wherever one's treasure is, that's where their heart will be, according to our Lord Jesus. Our works in Christ follow us to Heaven and make up our righteous clothing (Rev.14).

You've been reading too many Hal Lindsay books and watching too many Tim LaHaye "Left-behind" movies. Apostle Paul called deceived folks like you 'drunken' and those who 'sleep in the night' (1 Thess.5). You are totally drunken (spiritually) with a doctrine of men, and your whole Bible view centers around that doctrine from men, instead of letting God's Word itself be that center.

Most Christians don't understand the difference in how these Gospels differ but they are real and in the Bible. Did you know that the only books meant for the Church are the books of Paul. The rest are to the Jews and the tribulation saints.
That's another doctrine from men, like John Darby's Dispensationalism which E.W. Bullinger took even further with the idea that only Paul's Epistles apply to the Christian Church. That's a doctrine of men, and is not God's Word.

You obviously can't even imagine... how many times Apostle Paul quoted from the Old Testament when preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ! Ought to try looking that up, and ask yourself, "If only what Paul taught is relevant to Christ's Church, then WHY did He preach from the Old Testament Scriptures so much?!%#!!>?!
 
E

eph610

Guest
According to John Hagee we have four days to wait before we find out. The Antichrist is making his debut next Tuesday,according to Hagee and all Pre Tribbers should vanish on Monday. CC will lose some key contributors.
I hope they all have their bags packed.
Date setter's have always been around, even in Paul's day. I just ignore them.

When the Beast does make his appearance; the world will be in such turmoil it will need him.

The only Bible Prophesy being revealed before our eyes are a few things, the rise of apostate false doctrine and many coming in the name of Jesus and Isaiah 17, the destruction of Damascus.
 
F

Flip

Guest
*That's a wildly false statement. Provide us with just ONE Bible Scripture that 'proves' a Pre-trib Rapture! * <<<<<<< Why would there be "one scripture" to prove the Rapture ? Why should there be? GOD Hides such info because satan would not his chance to ruin it. So, it's hidden so only those who are led by the HOLY SPIRIT see how GOD shows it in HIS WORD.

Just look at what satan tried to do with the Birth of JESUS. And that was fairly clear in the OT but not perfectly clear. Just like the Rapture passages are hidden from those with eyes that will not see.






I'm sorry your so ignorant of all Scripture, but you will learn the hard way once you enter the time of Daniel's 70th week. You'll learn the 1st resurrection started with JESUS as the 1st fruits and followed by the Rapture and finally ending with those resurrected during and at the end of Revelation. You have the right to be wrong. I don't mind. I'll wave good bye to you on my way up. You're going to get what you want and demand.


*Sorry to have to correct you, but we all will be here during the great tribulation, if we don't die of some cause beforehand.* <<<<< You'll die alright. So, you think you'll be protected by GOD during the Time of Jacob's trouble. Where's that promise in the Bible ? What I read is
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] {Rev 6: 9 [/FONT]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Rev 13:[/FONT] 7 [FONT=&quot]And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. [/FONT][FONT=&quot] Rev 20: [/FONT]4 [FONT=&quot]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [/FONT]I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.} - THAT'S ALL I SEE, is saints being killed, not protected.
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*The idea of Jesus coming to gather His Church prior to the great tribulation simply is nowhere written in God's Word. It is a doctrine of men, started in certain churches in Great Britain with the Edward Irving and John Darby Brethren movements.* What do you aspire the terms Hope to be?
1 Thessalonians 2:19 [FONT=&quot]For what [/FONT]is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious coming? . . . Titus 2:13 appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. . . . 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, . . . Revelation 6:17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?[FONT=&quot]
Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Revelation 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

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[FONT=&quot]Revelation 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.he seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.[/FONT][/FONT]
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Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. <<<<<<<< What I see is we are promised to be kept out of the WRATH of GOD by the HOPE GOD gives us to keep us from HIS WRATH which is coming upon the whole earth. And I find no verses that promise protection to any "saints" living on the earth during that time... [/FONT][/FONT]
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* We should have works to show our Faith, for wherever one's treasure is, that's where their heart will be, according to our Lord Jesus. Our works in Christ follow us to Heaven and make up our righteous clothing (Rev.14).* <<<<<<< The only work I see that count for our salvation is this work >
[FONT=&quot]John 6:28-29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? [/FONT][FONT=&quot]29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. END OF WORK. [/FONT]
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*You've been reading too many Hal Lindsay books and watching too many Tim LaHaye "Left-behind" movies. Apostle Paul called deceived folks like you 'drunken' and those who 'sleep in the night' (1 Thess.5). You are totally drunken (spiritually) with a doctrine of men, and your whole Bible view centers around that doctrine from men, instead of letting God's Word itself be that center.* <<<<<<<< Sadly to say, I've never read anything by Hal Lindsay and nor have I seen any movies by LaHaye. I've spent the last 38+ years, 6+ HOURS EACH AND EVERYDAY, HEARING AN AUDIO KJV BIBLE MADE FOR BLIND FOLKS. WHICH IS HOW I BECAME A PRE-TRIBBER. I WAS POST TRIB THE 1ST 5 YEARS OF MY BELIEF, BUT ABOUT 3 YEARS INTO MY BELIEF, I READ ROMANS 10:17 AND DECIDED TO DO IT. SO, I'VE HEARD THE KJV through over 1350+ times in 38+ years and it was the problems in the post-trib view that kept popping up as I LISTENED TO THE KJV OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER & OVER SO THAT THE RAPTURE VERSES KEPT POPPING UP TO ME AND WHEN I SAW THE POST-TRIB PROBLEMS I MADE A LIST AND GAVE THEM TO ABOUT 8 DIFFERENT POST-TRIB TEACHERS I HEARD REGULARLY AND NOT ONE OF THEM COULD ANSWER AND FIX THE PROBLEMS. THIS IS WHEN I BEGAN TO READ ABOUT THE PRE-TRIB BELIEF AND LO & BEHOLD IT MADE PERFECT SENSE WITH THE BIBLE. SO NO MATTER WHAT RHYME OR REASON YOU USE, IT'S THE AUDIO BIBLE THAT IS YOUR ENEMY. IT JEST WON'T ALLOW ME TO GO BACK TO THE POST-TRIB LIE.


Most Christians don't understand the difference in how these Gospels differ but they are real and in the Bible. Did you know that the only books meant for the Church are the books of Paul. The rest are to the Jews and the tribulation saints.


*That's another doctrine from men, like John Darby's Dispensationalism which E.W. Bullinger took even further with the idea that only Paul's Epistles apply to the Christian Church. That's a doctrine of men, and is not God's Word.* <<<<<<< LET'S SEE WHAT PAUL SAYS > ACTS 9:
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]4 and he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. /// AND THE LORD SAID > [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, >>> to bear my name before the Gentiles, <<< and kings, and the children of Israel: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 for I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake. AND PAUL WROTE > [/FONT]Romans 11:12-14; 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Galatians 2:7-9; 7 but contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (for he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.[/FONT][/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Colossians 1:26-28; 26 even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: I DON'T SEE PETER OR JOHN OR ANY OF THE OTHER APOSTLES CLAIMING TO BE SENT TO THE GENTILES . AS THE REST OF THEM PREACHED THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM, WHICH PAUL DID NOT. [/FONT][/FONT]
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*You obviously can't even imagine... how many times Apostle Paul quoted from the Old Testament when preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ! Ought to try looking that up, and ask yourself, "If only what Paul taught is relevant to Christ's Church, then WHY did He preach from the Old Testament Scriptures so much?!%#!!>?! * <<<<<<<<<<<<< AND WHY SHOULDN'T HE, AS THAT WAS THEIR ONLY BIBLE AND THAT DOES NOT DESTROY WHAT PAUL WAS SENT TO DO. TO TAKE THE GOSPEL OF GRACE TO THE GENTILES. THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM ENDED AS THE DEATH OF STEPHEN. THAT IS WHEN GOD TURNED HIS FACE FROM ISRAEL AND HID HIS FACE FROM THEM UNTIL THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES IS FULFILLED WHICH HAPPENS AT EZEKIEL 38 & 39 AT SPECIFICALLY EZEKIEL 39:29.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
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*That's a wildly false statement. Provide us with just ONE Bible Scripture that 'proves' a Pre-trib Rapture! * <<<<<<< Why would there be "one scripture" to prove the Rapture ? Why should there be? GOD Hides such info because satan would not his chance to ruin it. So, it's hidden so only those who are led by the HOLY SPIRIT see how GOD shows it in HIS WORD.

Just look at what satan tried to do with the Birth of JESUS. And that was fairly clear in the OT but not perfectly clear. Just like the Rapture passages are hidden from those with eyes that will not see.
You mean, the PRE-TRIB rapture passages are hidden from those with eyes that cannot see, which of course is malarkey because no such passages exist in God's Word!

Jesus and His Apostles didn't make it difficult to know the time of His return and gathering of His Church. All anyone needs to disprove the Pre-trib Rapture theory is just ONE Scripture witness that clearly shows His coming to gather His Church is at the end of the tribulation:

2 Thess 2:1-8
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
KJV


And there it is, Apostle Paul's account in 2 Thess.2 that TWO events MUST occur first, before Christ's coming to gather His Church. And that is 1) a great falling away, and 2) the "man of sin" (the Antichrist) must be revealed... sitting in the temple in Jerusalem exalting himself in place of God. Then Jesus comes to destroy that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming.

Uh, did Paul say Jesus destroys that Wicked one at the brightness of His coming PRIOR to the tribulation? No, of course not!

Thus the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is a LIE from the outset!
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
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I'm sorry your so ignorant of all Scripture, but you will learn the hard way once you enter the time of Daniel's 70th week. You'll learn the 1st resurrection started with JESUS as the 1st fruits and followed by the Rapture and finally ending with those resurrected during and at the end of Revelation. You have the right to be wrong. I don't mind. I'll wave good bye to you on my way up. You're going to get what you want and demand.


Your words simply have no substance. Your false claims are like from one who has never even read their Bible, like a programmed puppet with a windup key behind their head. It's almost like someone paid... you to come here, gave you a sheet of paper with words on it telling you what to say.

<<<<< You'll die alright. So, you think you'll be protected by GOD during the Time of Jacob's trouble. Where's that promise in the Bible ? What I read is {Rev 6: 9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.} - THAT'S ALL I SEE, is saints being killed, not protected.

What you see is only of thinking of a way to preserve your OWN life, instead of being prepared to face death for serving The Lord Jesus Christ as He commanded His faithful servants. He didn't promise our flesh would live forever, that's not His eternal Life promise.

Something Jesus said you Pre-trib folks forget to read when you go quoting your false interpretation of the first one 'taken' of Luke 17:

Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0

........................
*The idea of Jesus coming to gather His Church prior to the great tribulation simply is nowhere written in God's Word. It is a doctrine of men, started in certain churches in Great Britain with the Edward Irving and John Darby Brethren movements.*

What do you aspire the terms Hope to be?
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious coming? . . . Titus 2:13 appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
1 Thessalonians 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. . . . 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, . . . Revelation 6:17 for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



Let's see what 'timing' that 1 Thessalonians 2:19 verse reveals for the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church:

1 Thess 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?
KJV


Well, what do ya know, there is NOTHING there from Paul about the TIMING of Jesus' coming in that verse.

But because Pre-trib Rapture drunkards like you... cannot see that verse clearly, because of the doctrine of drunkenness that you are on, you are programmed to ADD a pre-trib rapture into that verse where there is NONE!

Next...

Titus 2:13-14
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
KJV


Nothing there either about the TIMING of Jesus' coming to gather His Church.

But get spiritually drunken enough on men's doctrines, and one can dream up any little ole' idea they like to add to that! It's fun! It's like Ouija Board fun to be spiritually drunken! Letters forming words simply appear on the page coming out of nowhere! Yeah, that says we are raptured BEFORE the tribulation! Yay!!! NOT!


Next...

1 Thess 1:10
10 And to wait for His Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, Which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV


How does that verse show a Pre-trib Rapture? by that promise that we've been delivered from that wrath to come? Which 'wrath' is that? Per Apostle Paul in 1 Thess. 5, it's about GOD'S WRATH UPON THE WICKED ON THE FINAL DAY OF THIS WORLD! The "sudden destruction" upon "them" is what Paul was talking about, NOT the tribulation!

Your Pre-trib rapture doctors would know this IF they had bothered to read the prophecies about the end in the Old Testament prophets, oh, but they don't recognize... that part of the Bible, do they? No, and they don't want YOU to know about it either!!! Realize what that means? It means those Pre-trib doctors probably DO ... KNOW about those conflicting Scriptures in the OT prophets, and that's WHY... they want you spiritual drunkards on their false doctrines to think ONLY Paul's Epistles were written for Christ's Church!

Next...

1 Thess 5:9-10
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.
KJV


Again, WHICH "wrath" was Paul talking about??? This one...

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV


Obviously, most Pre-trib Rapture folks need help understanding English grammar in that, and need help to understand what wrath Paul was pointing to:

The
"day of the Lord":

Isa 13:6-9
6 Howl ye; for
the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:

8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.

9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
KJV



You mean the "day of the Lord" is about the day of GOD'S WRATH upon the wicked, and on that day He will lay the land desolate and destroy the sinners out of it? Yeah.... that's right.

Let me think now; if that 'wrath' from God lays the land desolate, and destroys the sinners out of it, could that mean it ends the "great tribulation" timing Jesus spoke of that happens just prior to His coming? YES!!!

The Scriptures are so... simple... for one who reads them in simplicity per God's Holy Writ, and not men's books.