Where did Jesus say anything about registering your marriage with the state? You speak of letting the state regulate things. What choice do you have? The Bible doesn't assume democracy either.Biblically, why should there be a conflict between registering a marriage and your faith? I know some of the Anabaptist groups like the Amish considering all kinds of things most Christians consider normal to be proper interaction with the world. Depending on the group, that might be hooking up to the 'world' by having electricity, registering marriages, etc. Most Christians don't see it that way.We should definitely realize that there is more to marriage than the state recognizing it. If the state doesn't recognize marriage, that doesn't mean it is invalid. The falsely so called 'gay' falsely so-called 'marriage' decision showed a problem with letting the state define marriage. But why should it be a problem to get a marriage license if you are legitimately married? The issues of conscience I see are with parents, relatives, other people in the church and society who say a couple aren't married because they didn't get legally married. We can not recognize unbiblical divorce, so-called 'gay marriage', and marriages to animals and trees and still register our marriages with the state. Why would serving God entail not getting a marriage license? Have you heard of a requirement to bow down to an idol to get a marriage license?okay.'Let not the wife depart from her husband' implies they live together, doesn't it.If vows did not make the couple married in the Bible, why would it now? What about middle schoolers that swear life-time commitment to one another as boyfriend and girlfriend? Why would modern western social custom be binding, but not legal marriage certificates?Miriam was not Moses' wife's father.I've seen the 'seduction' section title, but not elopement. Calling it 'elopment' legitimizes it. It's fornication.
Presidente...
I have never passed judgement on anyone and said this bypassing of State is a requirement. Nor have I stated that those who do get married in the state are wrong. What I have said is that not getting a marriage license is a valid choice for believers and why I personally follow this path with biblical reasons.
You say:"
Where did Jesus say anything about registering your marriage with the state? You speak of letting the state regulate things. What choice do you have? The Bible doesn't assume democracy either. " interesting thought. I disagree. The bible is full of civil disobedience for institutions governments have put into place that did not align with Our Fathers ways.
You continue; biblically, why should there be a conflict between registering a marriage and your faith?
Simply because when the state places itself in YHWHs role legislating things he has already regulated in a different manner we have the same mandate Yahshua did we he taught his apostles to follow the will of the Father over the laws of men.
The possibly most biblically detailed issue certainly seems like a bigger thing for civil disobedience than. Talmudic handwashing. And note... That the disciples were socially ostracized for it and did not care.
You continue.
"I know some of the Anabaptist groups like the Amish considering all kinds of things most Christians consider normal to be proper interaction with the world. Depending on the group, that might be hooking up to the 'world' by having electricity, registering marriages, etc. Most Christians don't see it that way.We should definitely realize that there is more to marriage than the state recognizing it."
This movement away from state weddings started among evangelicals and Baptists. Not all of course but some and growing. The Anabaptist sects. Including Mennonite not just amish and apostolics NEVER got them. Mennonites are far from a small group. They have electricity. They have respected and accredited universities.
They have famous and well respected members of their community.
Business people. Atheletes. Politicians. Theologians.
I encourage you to look up a list of famous Mennonites. Chances are you will know a few names
But one thing the majority do not have is marriage licenses. Some liberal Mennonites get them. Just not the majority. Are these people fornicating because they choose bible over state? That seems silly.
You continue.
" If the state doesn't recognize marriage, that doesn't mean it is invalid. The falsely so called 'gay' falsely so-called 'marriage' decision showed a problem with letting the state define marriage. But why should it be a problem to get a marriage license if you are legitimately married? " because this is a slippery slope. It leads to other registries. Ask people in China or North korea what it is like for registered Christians. Because it is a power YHWH kept for himself. Because my.marriage is NOT the same institution that homosexuals enter. Because I will not ask the state to step in for the Church. Because Messiah taught us not to allow those in power to usurp the Fathers ways. Is 5hat enough?
You go on:"The issues of conscience I see are with parents, relatives, other people in the church and society who say a couple aren't married because they didn't get legally married."
What a witnessing opportunity! Just like the pharisees wouldn't even sit at a table with the disciples because they would not do the things man added in as law.
You continue.
."Why would serving God entail not getting a marriage license? Have you heard of a requirement to bow down to an idol to get a marriage license?"
I think you forget the story a bit. It wasn't an idol. It was the king. The state. Daniel gave YHWH the honor due him instead of giving it to the crown
Daniel6:*7**All the presidents of the kingdom, the governors, and the princes, the counsellers, and the captains, have consulted together to establish a royal statute, and to make a firm decree, that whosoever shall ask a petition of any Elohim or man for thirty days, save of thee, O king, he shall be cast into the den of lions.
*8**Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
*9**Wherefore king Darius signed the writing and the decree.
*10**Now when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house; and his windows being open in his chamber toward Jerusalem, he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his Elohim, as he did aforetime.
*11**Then these men assembled, and found Daniel praying and making supplication before his Elohim.
12**Then they came near, and spake before the king concerning the king's decree; Hast thou not signed a decree, that every man that shall ask a petition of any Elohim or man within thirty days, save of thee, O king, shall be cast into the den of lions? The king answered and said, The thing is true, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
Starting to make sense?
We continue:"Where do you get the idea that people who live together and intend to forever are married? If that were the case, why was the father's approval necessary after a man had seduced a woman and was required to marry her. Her father could take the bride price, but not give her to him in marriage.*"
I believe I said the family dealt with each other first. Please look again. And in the other comment I said barring more information. Family should definitely be on board as long as they are in the faith.
okay.
You go on.
"So what was the procedure for marriage. Relatives talked. Made deals. Had a party. Husband and wife made a vow. Witnessed by public. Consummated the vow. Voila married! Living together was the norm but not required.*"
'Let not the wife depart from her husband' implies they live together, doesn't it."
No. It doesn't imply anything. It plainly states what it means.
Once you are married you are married. There are many biblical examples of husbands and wives living apart. Abraham and Sarah were living in different countries at her death.... But were still married. As i said it is the norm not the requirement.
"If vows did not make the couple married in the Bible, why would it now? " it did as long as hey consummated and there were. No familial objections. Many places still require this objection period be observed. Such Baans in the UK or speak now or forever hold your piece in services.
as. To "What about middle schoolers that swear life-time commitment to one another as boyfriend and girlfriend?"
Are biblically minded parents allowing them opportunities to consummate? there seems bigger problems here.
You go on.
"Why would modern western social custom be binding, but not legal marriage certificates?"
whoever said that? Silly really. A vow is a vow. People I said are divorcing in the state and revowing under YHWH are not reneging their vow but shifting its authority to YHWH from the state. The very idea!
You continue.
"I've seen the 'seduction' section title, but not elopement. Calling it 'elopment' legitimizes it. It's fornication."
I do not know what the seduction section title means.
However as far as elopement goes. If it is not annulled the bible calls it marriage. You do not have the right to change his word...