Leadership or Manipulation?

[eternally-gratefull]

begs the question, and in all seriousness, where do we get the ideas that someone could be perfect?

you wrote the words 'growing up', so is that a childhood norm, as in trust all adults and you are in for a rude awakening when you reach 18, or is that some subliminal thing we absorb?

I can't say I thought anyone was perfect (just a difference in personalities or maybe upbringing) but I was harmed because of what was LEFT OUT of the Bible and therefore left me vulnerable

I don't like to generalize all that much (as may be become evident in my posts haha) there are generalizations of course, but as a starting point

the amazing thing is that God sees us as individuals. all of nature seems to illustrate the diversity and the care God has put into His creation.

I meant even into my late 20s, I did not think any pastor could get any doctrine wrong, He would never lead me astray with a doctrine or thought which was not true.. So I took what they said on the pulpit as Gods truth..

I knew they could sin,, But I never thought the HS would allow them to give me a false truth.


it was when people at work started to stand up to me, and get me to finally open my eyes, and study, I saw some things I was taught were not true.. even thought I would fight tooth and nail if anyone tried to show me any different (like some do on here) and blame everyone else for everything, and never repent, or take credit for my own errors..

And it was so freeing..

 

[Willie-T]

I think this shows that scripture is first and foremost our first authority. No matter who our leaders are. We should test anything they say with scripture. No one is perfect.. And we shoudl never assume anyone is 100% right, This is the struggle I had growing up. I did not think my pastor could ever be wrong. and boy did it have me enslaved.

Very true. This is my biggest objection to the "hunters" of preachers. Seldom do you find them addressing the right or wrong of the sermons that come from the cherished group of men or women on their side of the fence. The concentration seems to be more along the lines of, "Anything my boy says is to be accepted without question, because he usually says what I like to hear... Whereas, every word that comes out of the mouth of your guy HAS to be heretical, since I know he is of the Devil."

I just checked 54 warnings given by God or Jesus, (the maximum I could find) and not once was any warning given about a specific individual person's teaching. (If someone can find where it did happen, please post it.) Now, I have read perhaps a few random chapters of the Bible, off and on over the years, and I know that Paul specifically called out some people by name..... but he also said that women can't talk in church, and he said a few other interesting things, as well. I can't take everything he says as a solid commandment.

My point to this is my failure to understand why so many people strive so hard to condemn certain people..... only. I love Joseph Prince. But there are quite a few things he says that I disagree with. On the other hand, I don't care too much for John MacArthur. But, he nails things right on the head sometimes. And, I find it to be so with almost every teacher I have ever listened to. How is it that some people can find nothing but evil in every word certain people say....... and then take it to the point of declaring to the world that they are servants of Satan?

 

[Depleted]

maybe we can take a look at biblical authority and while we are at, the authority of the Bible.

why do I differentiate? well, the Bible does have alot to say about authority, authorities and the delegation of same

on the other hand, the Bible itself is authority

so, maybe we can look into and try to define for the sake of some clairity (again, this is a subject worthy of books and study so just trying an overview with this thread) how both define our lives as Christians

How I trust authority -- when they're out to help the community rather than prove they are important.

As much as Peter and Paul butted heads, it was always what was best for the people, not who was most important between them. As smart and knowledgeable as Paul was, his goal was always to raise up the people, not to prove himself.

I expect nothing different from leadership in the church. "The first will be last and the last will be first."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Very true. This is my biggest objection to the "hunters" of preachers. Seldom do you find them addressing the right or wrong of the sermons that come from the cherished group of men or women on their side of the fence. The concentration seems to be more along the lines of, "Anything my boy says is to be accepted without question, because he usually says what I like to hear... Whereas, every word that comes out of the mouth of your guy HAS to be heretical, since I know he is of the Devil."

I just checked 54 warnings given by God or Jesus, (the maximum I could find) and not once was any warning given about a specific individual person's teaching. (If someone can find where it did happen, please post it.) Now, I have read perhaps a few random chapters of the Bible, off and on over the years, and I know that Paul specifically called out some people by name..... but he also said that women can't talk in church, and he said a few other interesting things, as well. I can't take everything he says as a solid commandment.

My point to this is my failure to understand why so many people strive so hard to condemn certain people..... only. I love Joseph Prince. But there are quite a few things he says that I disagree with. On the other hand, I don't care too much for John MacArthur. But, he nails things right on the head sometimes. And, I find it to be so with almost every teacher I have ever listened to. How is it that some people can find nothing but evil in every word certain people say....... and then take it to the point of declaring to the world that they are servants of Satan?

amen!

When we stand in front of God, He will not judge us based on what the pentecostle, or baptist, or catholic or luterhan or whatever paster-teacher told us.

He will judge us one what we believed, Because he gave us the word, and told us to test all. to make sure it is from God.. using scripture as the guide..

If we get it wrong, at least we can be judged on that,, If we blindly followed. that will be painful to swallow..

And if it happens to be the gospel.. We will have an eternity to think of it..

 

[sevenseas]

I meant even into my late 20s, I did not think any pastor could get any doctrine wrong, He would never lead me astray with a doctrine or thought which was not true.. So I took what they said on the pulpit as Gods truth..

I knew they could sin,, But I never thought the HS would allow them to give me a false truth.


it was when people at work started to stand up to me, and get me to finally open my eyes, and study, I saw some things I was taught were not true.. even thought I would fight tooth and nail if anyone tried to show me any different (like some do on here) and blame everyone else for everything, and never repent, or take credit for my own errors..

And it was so freeing..

you've said something truly pivotal in your post above

But I never thought the HS would allow them to give me a false truth.

this is the thing people need to understand; that is the thing that damaged me so much years ago

I never thought God would allow a sincere person to be deceived. it is contrary to what scripture teaches

sincerity is not the measure of truth and it is not some kind of shield against evil

 

[notuptome]

amen!

When we stand in front of God, He will not judge us based on what the pentecostle, or baptist, or catholic or luterhan or whatever paster-teacher told us.

He will judge us one what we believed, Because he gave us the word, and told us to test all. to make sure it is from God.. using scripture as the guide..

If we get it wrong, at least we can be judged on that,, If we blindly followed. that will be painful to swallow..

And if it happens to be the gospel.. We will have an eternity to think of it..

The Lord holds those who have the authority over us to a higher standard. They will give account to the Lord if they taught false doctrine.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Angela53510]

an example is, you ask a question or have a contradictory response to something someone posts. they come back at you with a Bible verse they are using to attempt to become 'god' in your life. the verse will be designed as a rebuff or a rebuke and and they use this verse in a way never intended by God and this is not something anyone has to fear

I am about as far from a manipulative person as you can get. In fact, both my daughter and sister have tried to give me lessons on how to manipulate, because "it works so well." All the more reason I cannot and won't manipulate.

But this statement from the OP, seems to be saying, if someone is posting something you don't like, and you DARE to come back with a Biblical answer, then you are manipulating? Please correct me if I am wrong.

To me, the essence of discussing not just doctrine, but how to grow closer to God, and to be more like him, has to come from the Bible. Some people really live the words, such as many of the old saints at church. I know in long term care, I learned so much as a chaplain from the incredible wisdom and love of these people in their 90's.

But, to say someone is manipulating or using a verse not in the way God intended it, I can agree. That is called bad hermeneutics or interpretation, and it goes on constantly in this forum. It is not manipulation. To come back with a quote of the context of the passage, or other supporting verses or information can never be wrong.

I am constantly in the faces of people I do not agree with here. I think they will attest to that! LOL But is that manipulation, or being forthright?

Manipulation is when someone tries to force you to do, or believe something, and basically you don't even realize they are doing it. Because, if they were in your face, you would recognize immediately that they were pushing you to do or believe something you didn't want to do or believe.

Anyway, my example of manipulation is to post a thank you to people who rep you publicly. You may well be thankful, I don't deny that. But, it comes across as "Haha, I got a rep!" I hate it when I rep someone and they come back and publicly thank me. I did it in secret, and I would like it kept between us. If you send me a pm, thanking me, that is very appropriate.

But too many overtones of cliques, and maybe condescension come out of publicly thanking people. I just really find it manipulative. I won't rep the person who does that again. So I am not just talking about this thread, but the flattery that passes as being friends in any thread, in any forum.

"I'd like to thank the people who think my posts are great, by giving me a rep!" Ok, maybe that is kind of hitting people over the head. Since manipulation is hard for me to recognize, maybe I am misinterpreting this. Still, it doesn't sit well with me, in case anyone wants to know! LOL

 

[Stephen63]

Well said!

These are what the manipulators and leaders can get into - some I think with good intentions although misguided and others not with good intentions. They are just taken over by malice, bitterness and thus take up slandering others in the body of Christ.

Condemnation guilt and shame are not tools of the kingdom of God and the Lord does not sub-contract them out to the devil to use on us. They are the tools of the religious spirit that uses them to try to force others to conform and try to mimic the life of Christ.

Condemnation is the sub-conscious confession that your life is worthy of judgment.

Guilt is the sub-conscious confession that you are not forgiven.

Shame is the sub-conscious confession that the thing you are condemned over is still who you are.

All 3 of these are anti-Christ and anti- the finished work of Christ beliefs.

They are not tools of heaven. The Holy Spirit is NOT called the Spirit of guilt - but He the Comforter is called the Spirit of grace.

Defletion is the sub-conscious confession that what you blame others of doing is actually what you're doing.

 

[Stephen63]

I just checked 54 warnings given by God or Jesus, (the maximum I could find) and not once was any warning given about a specific individual person's teaching. (If someone can find where it did happen, please post it.) Now, I have read perhaps a few random chapters of the Bible, off and on over the years, and I know that Paul specifically called out some people by name..... but he also said that women can't talk in church, and he said a few other interesting things, as well. I can't take everything he says as a solid commandment.

My point to this is my failure to understand why so many people strive so hard to condemn certain people..... only. I love Joseph Prince. But there are quite a few things he says that I disagree with. On the other hand, I don't care too much for John MacArthur. But, he nails things right on the head sometimes. And, I find it to be so with almost every teacher I have ever listened to. How is it that some people can find nothing but evil in every word certain people say....... and then take it to the point of declaring to the world that they are servants of Satan?

Mat 23:1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

While the internet has a great deal of help with the scriptures, there's nothing like good old fashioned Bible study.

Many scan the internet to show themselves approved of men, but the child of God is taught to study to show themselves approved of God.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[wsblind]

The Lord holds those who have the authority over us to a higher standard. They will give account to the Lord if they taught false doctrine.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to notuptome again.

Roger. I wish more would understand this principle. Teaching false doctrine, if we are teachers. Is an offense to God that wayyyyyyyyyyy outweighs our sin after we are saved.

 

[Willie-T]

Mat 23:1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. 5“But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men; for they broaden their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments. 6“They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men.

While the internet has a great deal of help with the scriptures, there's nothing like good old fashioned Bible study.

Many scan the internet to show themselves approved of men, but the child of God is taught to study to show themselves approved of God.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Just as you quoted here, Jesus told the people to do as their teachers taught them to do. You quoted it quite correctly, He never attacked individuals.

You, however, spend your days trying to condemn individual men and women.

 

[Stephen63]

Stephen. I was just moved with sadness at your posts. I promise you, I am not writing this as a backhanded jab at you. I don't know why you are so angry.
You are loved Stephen. Not just by God, but those who are your brothers, and sisters in Christ. Can't you forget about the differences of Grace vs. works for a while and just show that you love as well? That is what our Lord has told us will distinguish us as His.

Peace to you brother. In Jesus Name.

The most powerful types of manipulation are those that mimic compassion & concern. The televangelists are very adept at this.

One could say I'm narrowly focused, & they would probably be right. Possibly a one-track mind, I could see that.

But angry?

The differences between Hyp******e & Living by faith are astronomical. Hyp******e is no different than Mormonism in terms of the amount of heresy in it.

I think it's time for CC to wake up & smell the coffee.

 

[Stephen63]

Just as you quoted here, Jesus told the people to do as their teachers taught them to do. You quoted it quite correctly, He never attacked individuals.

You, however, spend your days trying to condemn individual men and women.

Jesus never openly exposed individuals?

Do you read your Bible, or do you run to the internet to find agreement?

Jesus cleansing the temple comes to mind. "My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves."

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14[“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense you make long prayers; therefore you will receive greater condemnation.] 15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple is obligated.’ 17“You fools and blind men! Which is more important, the gold or the temple that sanctified the gold? 18“And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever swears by the offering on it, he is obligated.’ 19“You blind men, which is more important, the offering, or the altar that sanctifies the offering? 20“Therefore, whoever swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and by everything on it. 21“And whoever swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by Him who dwells within it. 22“And whoever swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by Him who sits upon it. 23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. 24“You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! 25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26“You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also. 27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. 28“So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30and say, ‘If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31“So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32“Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

 

[wsblind]

The most powerful types of manipulation are those that mimic compassion & concern. The televangelists are very adept at this.

One could say I'm narrowly focused, & they would probably be right. Possibly a one-track mind, I could see that.

But angry?

The differences between Hyp******e & Living by faith are astronomical. Hyp******e is no different than Mormonism in terms of the amount of heresy in it.

I think it's time for CC to wake up & smell the coffee.

You Know you hate to see it, but you can't stop yourself from watching a train wreck.

 

[samuel23]

Jesus called people hypocrites , snakes, vipers, fools, children of the devil, and He said it to their faces. It is not wrong to name a name if you point out where they depart from in context scripture. Many of these big time ministries teach a lot of truth but if you REALLY pay attention they will be teaching truth and then suddenly drop a bomb of falsehood and then immediately go back to truth. This is very devious and in a way is worse then a JW or Mormon because they catch a lot of Christians in their false teaching by using this method. Hey, I used to listen to a lot of those folks and even sent them money, I did not want to believe they were off on a tangent of their own...however in time and study I came to recognize they are not teaching the whole true gospel.

 

[Angela53510]

Jesus called people hypocrites , snakes, vipers, fools, children of the devil, and He said it to their faces. It is not wrong to name a name if you point out where they depart from in context scripture. Many of these big time ministries teach a lot of truth but if you REALLY pay attention they will be teaching truth and then suddenly drop a bomb of falsehood and then immediately go back to truth. This is very devious and in a way is worse then a JW or Mormon because they catch a lot of Christians in their false teaching by using this method. Hey, I used to listen to a lot of those folks and even sent them money, I did not want to believe they were off on a tangent of their own...however in time and study I came to recognize they are not teaching the whole true gospel.

Now this is a great example of manipulation! And so true! Thanks for posting!

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus called people hypocrites , snakes, vipers, fools, children of the devil, and He said it to their faces. It is not wrong to name a name if you point out where they depart from in context scripture. Many of these big time ministries teach a lot of truth but if you REALLY pay attention they will be teaching truth and then suddenly drop a bomb of falsehood and then immediately go back to truth. This is very devious and in a way is worse then a JW or Mormon because they catch a lot of Christians in their false teaching by using this method. Hey, I used to listen to a lot of those folks and even sent them money, I did not want to believe they were off on a tangent of their own...however in time and study I came to recognize they are not teaching the whole true gospel.

I found exactly the same technique used on cc. Lines of ok stuff then a completely wrong statement,
that changed it all. It was hidden, denied, but very clear.

Are we made worthy? Amen, so great is His love for us we are made co-heirs with Him, staggering.

 

[PeterJens]

Love just waits. Years go by, dreams of wealth, fame, family slip by until depression
grips the soul.

A house built on the rock, what a sight, do you see it? The Lord of all, came and shared His
wisdom, and the wise built and listened, and the foolish, did not.

So who spoke and who listened? A church is no more than Gods people and Christ's body
open your eyes and see the glory of the Lord, His treasure built in man.

 

[Grace777x70]

Do we actually have a scripture that shows Jesus Himself singling out an individual and calling them "Viper - hypocrite?" Or is Jesus speaking to the mindset and belief system of the self-righteousness?

Jesus never said any of this types of things to His own disciples - we as the body of Christ seem to love doing that for some ungodly reason and then we try to piously pretty it up by saying - " we are standing for the truth" - what they really mean is - "we are standing for truth as I and my group sees it and if you don't have the same thoughts on it - you are a cult and a heretic and that means I can publicly call you names and insult you.

This is a form of manipulating others to "lord it over their faith" and actually bite and devour each other in the body of Christ if they don't "agree with my and my groups belief on a subject." It's foul behavior no matter how much we try to dress it up.

We are free to believe what we want on some subjects ( not the essentials of Christ Himself and His work ) and to have "an opinion" just like everyone else.

One could believe that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation but I would like to see scripture that shows this to be true....

( Although - there is scripture about "birds" in Revelation - so....maybe this "bird theory" might be true...lol )

I'll wait for someone to bring forth the verses that show Jesus calling individual people vipers, snakes.

 

[Willie-T]

Jesus called people hypocrites , snakes, vipers, fools, children of the devil, and He said it to their faces. It is not wrong to name a name if you point out where they depart from in context scripture. Many of these big time ministries teach a lot of truth but if you REALLY pay attention they will be teaching truth and then suddenly drop a bomb of falsehood and then immediately go back to truth. This is very devious and in a way is worse then a JW or Mormon because they catch a lot of Christians in their false teaching by using this method. Hey, I used to listen to a lot of those folks and even sent them money, I did not want to believe they were off on a tangent of their own...however in time and study I came to recognize they are not teaching the whole true gospel.

With confused thinking like that, I can see why it was easy for them to dupe you. I will repeat it... Jesus did not attack individuals as you seem prone to doing. He challenged the teachings of groups that had gotten His Father's word so confused about its application through the years. But, even while doing that, He turned right around and told the crowds to listen to what they were saying, and apply it correctly in their own lives.

Just because some preacher lives in a fine house you don't approve of, or drives a car you can't afford, doesn't mean the words he is teaching are not directly from the Bible.