Soul and Spirit

[MaggieMye]

As for animals not having a spirit.. I completely disagree, everything living has a spirit.. otherwise its not living, Spirit is just the breathe of life given to make one alive.. Lifes energy, take it away and death comes. You need to remember that nowhere in scripture does it say that God BREATHED into any of the animals that He made. They were alive and breathing BEFORE Adam came into the picture. It is only MAN that God breathed into, that He put a spirit into and that, for the purpose of spirit to spirit communication with man.
The false doctrine of Immortal Souls is not in the bible, Souls DIE..your verses you quote even show that. Immortal means cannot die. Anything that dies is certainly not immortal. Let’s look at these verse that show that the soul does not die. IF it did die, how could the ‘person’ know torment in hell or ecstasy in praising the Lord in Heaven? BibleGateway.com - Keyword Search: soul die

Ezekiel 18:4
"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine The soul who sins will die. refers to spiritual death, not ceasing in its existance. SEE ABOVE LINK FOR SCRIPTURE SUPPORT
No it doesn’t it is talking about souls that CAN die, spirit cannot die.. its not talking about spiritual death as there is no such thing. Spirit is immortal, CANNOT DIE. What you are saying is opinion..not scripture. And your verse proves it. Which verse proves souls do not leave the body (Gen 35:18), but instead die??
spirit is a few things.. most talked of in the bible are .. as above.. the life giving force that god gives when life is started.

spirit is also docrtrine.. as john talks about in 1john4.. read the whole thing and find no 'doctrine of the spirit'.
Serious? The very first verse of 1john 4........
“(1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
(2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This has nothing to do with any ‘doctrine of the spirit’. This is INSTRUCTION to NOT believe everything you hear or read, testing it against the written Word of God. You have taken that verse out of context…and very strangely so.
Believe not every spirit????? What could this mean in this context?? Breath of life?? I don’t think so. It is talking about the ‘beliefs of anothers’ their doctrine. Yes, but how do you get a ‘doctrine’ out of that? It is instruction, warning of demons working through people to bring about false teaching.
(1) The passage is clearly warning TRUE believers to be wary of false doctrines by false prophets/teachers and to
(2) know the correct doctrine of god, and every doctrine that says jesus is flesh (not god)
(3) and every doctrine that says that jesus isn’t flesh is NOT OF GOD. And is infact the doctrine of an antichrist (or somebody against Christ),.... Then it finishes to say that this false doctrine was in the world back then 2000years ago and will come again , as it is now. Right, we agree on this. But there is no “doctrine of the spirit”!
V 6 Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
holy spirit is gods power to do what he wills.
No. God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). He IS power. Holy Spirit IS part of God and not something that the Father gets any power from. Scripture says the HE is Mighty...not that He gets His might from anything. Revelation 11:17
saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign.
I never said the Father gets power from anything, I said as you quoted what i said hightlghted above in red.. the holy spirit IS gods power.. I didn’t say the holy spirit is something god gets his power from.. God would still BE power even if Holy Spirit were not in existence. So I think I still disagree here. God IS the power. Holy Spirit and Christ are Parts of God that the power is used in and through and in the case of Christ, given to.
My guess is I'm from Venus and you are from Mars and we are basically saying the same thing!!
Maggie

 

[GospelOnly]

Maggie


You need to remember that nowhere in scripture does it say that God BREATHED into any of the animals that He made. They were alive and breathing BEFORE Adam came into the picture. It is only MAN that God breathed into, that He put a spirit into and that, for the purpose of spirit to spirit communication with man.

Bible disagrees with you on this

Psalm 104 (talking about leviathan (animal)
29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Same thing as Jesus gave up the *ghost* breath and died
Same thing as Adam, God sends the spirit and they are created.
..............also
Ecclesiastes 3
19For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth ?

Rendered......."Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (v.22). That is, who can tell whether there is any difference? Incidentally, the word translated "spirit" here is the very same as is rendered "breath" in v.1 9; which shows that "spirit" here is the life resulting from breathing. It ceases when breathing stops.



The false doctrine of Immortal Souls is not in the bible, Souls DIE..your verses you quote even show that. Immortal means cannot die. Anything that dies is certainly not immortal. Let’s look at these verse that show that the soul does not die. IF it did die, how could the ‘person’ know torment in hell or ecstasy in praising the Lord in Heaven? BibleGateway.com - Keyword*Search: soul die
So you believe in a torturous god, that would burn and tomrent people? Not the loving god of the bible, Strange doctrine that one I never did understand why people would worship a god of torture. I don’t know of any torture god in my bible. But at least I see where you are coming from in your understanding of your god and how you might come about other beliefs you believe in. But back on topic.
Souls DIE the bible is staunch on the matter.

Ps.33:19. "..to deliver their SOUL FROM DEATH and keep them ALIVE in famine"..also Prov 19:15.
Ez.18:4... ". the SOUL that sinneth IT SHALL DIE"
Mat.10:28 ".fear him which is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell " ( the grave).
Mat.26:38.".my SOUL is exceeding SORROWFUL, EVEN UNTO DEATH". see also Rev 16:3.
Matt. 16:25-26" For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"



Which verse proves souls do not leave the body (Gen 35:18), but instead die??
Genesis 35:18
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

This verse you quote even agrees with what I’m saying, ‘’’her SOUL was in departing (FOR SHE DIED)
This is saying what I’m talking about that souls DIE it even says in the brackets (for she died)..to help understand exactly what ‘in departing’ means.



“(1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
(2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
(3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
This has nothing to do with any ‘doctrine of the spirit’. This is INSTRUCTION to NOT believe everything you hear or read, testing it against the written Word of God. You have taken that verse out of context…and very strangely so.
I have not taken it out of context at all, It is clear as crystal, that these first 3 verses of 1jn4 are talking about DOCTRINES when it uses the word SPIRITS.

It sure isn’t the breath of life its talking about here. So what do you say the word SPIRIT’ in these verses mean then?
It is clear that it meaning DOCTRINES, by the Context of the whole passage altogether.. And that context is suggesting that the ‘SPIRIT’ mentioned is the false doctrines of the godman..

It says who antichrists are ..and they are those who believe in the DOCTRINE(SPIRIT) Of jesus not coming in flesh.. which is trinitarianism..as they believe jesus came in spirit before the world was created.not in flesh when he was born. Can’t have it both ways.. you cant say he was spirit then flesh..as this goes against the meaning of immortality

There is nowhere in the bible that suggests immortal beings like jesus would have to be to be with god before creation... can become mortal (as jesus was to be able to die) Yet so many verses to show that mortals can become immortal after they die.


Believe not every spirit????? What could this mean in this context?? Breath of life?? I don’t think so. It is talking about the ‘beliefs of anothers’ their doctrine.
Yes, but how do you get a ‘doctrine’ out of that? It is instruction, warning of demons working through people to bring about false teaching.
There is no mention of demons in this passage whatsoever (and that is another heavy subject that is from the RCC) but thats for another discussion.. So back on what the passage is actually saying without adding stuff that isn’t there.

What is a doctrine to you? To me it is a system of belief on a topic. To believe jesus is not come in the flesh as Trinitarians do, is ‘a doctrine’, (albeit a false one) and to believe that jesus ‘did’ come in the flesh as nontrinitarians believe, is a doctrine.


(1) The passage is clearly warning TRUE believers to be wary of false doctrines by false prophets/teachers and to
(2) know the correct doctrine of god, and every doctrine that says jesus is flesh (not god)
(3) and every doctrine that says that jesus isn’t flesh is NOT OF GOD. And is infact the doctrine of an antichrist (or somebody against Christ),.... Then it finishes to say that this false doctrine was in the world back then 2000years ago and will come again , as it is now.
Right, we agree on this. But there is no “doctrine of the spirit”!
So you are agreeing with my breakdown of those verses now????
And I never said anything about ‘doctrine of the spirit’ I said the word spirit in this passage MEANS doctrine or belief




God would still BE power even if Holy Spirit were not in existence. So I think I still disagree here. God IS the power. Holy Spirit and Christ are Parts of God that the power is used in and through and in the case of Christ, given to.
My guess is I'm from Venus and you are from Mars and we are basically saying the same thing!!

This again disagrees with scripture. The bible talks often of the holy spirit being Yhvh’s power to do things. God is the power yes..because of the HS which is his power, take the HS away there is no god, because there is no power.

I AGREE that HS is part of god.(his power part), I 100% DISAGREE that Jesus is part of god.

The only way jesus is a part of god is in that jesus a full human being, does gods work on earth, and has the same desire to give the gospel message. But to suggest jesus is a part of yhvh in essence or nature is totally unbiblical.

Yes jesus did gods will and pleased god all the time, but he is no part of a 3 way deal with god. The 3 things Trinitarians mention when they talk of trinity.. being.. 1 the father 2 the son and 3 the HS are not a co-equal thing. The father is the almighty who does things through his power (the HS) and Jesus is a man who did gods word on earth being a total human being like you and me, without sinning because he chose not to when he could have.

Trinitarians however stop at that number 3, all the time.. They say verses like ‘the father and I are one, to try and claim jesus is the father by misinterpreting that verse so badly. Yet that is only 2 anyway..no mention of the neglected HS there. And also no mention of a verse jesus says about the apostles are to be one with him also. So to stick with the same mathematical logic, one would have to say there is a FOURTEENITY GOD. (THE 12 apostles plus jesus and god) (don’t include the HS he isn’t mentioned in this) So god now has blown out to 14 persons, But go figure, trins don’t want to use the apostles verse. Why? When it is saying they should be one with jesus..why should I believe the ‘father and i are one’ verse when the apostle verse is exactly the same thing,.. see my point..its pick and choose but at all costs stop the count at 3.

 

[MaggieMye]

You are taking all of your verses LITERALLY when many of them are FIGURATIVE. "Your Spirit" is better translated "the breath"....which means something entirely different.

n'uf said.

Maggie

 

[mpaper345]

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth(Ecclesiastes 3:21).

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it(Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Animals do have spirits,but their spirits go downward,and people's spirits go back to God who gave it.

Matt

 

[Healer777]

No. The Soul is comprised of the mind, will and emotions of a person. The spirit...is just that...spirit. God created us in His image, spirit, so that we could communicate with Him who is Spirit.
Maggie
The human being is a three-part being:
Body, Soul and Spirit.
The Body is three: flesh, bone, and blood
The Soul is three: mind, will and emotion
The Spirit is three: Wisdom, Communion and Conscious

God is three (see how He divinely created us in His image?): Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

hello and good evening, 1st thessalonians chapter 5...verse 23.

you have explained soul and body perfectly.

well done...!!

healer777

 

[MaggieMye]

Thanks! I don't recall who taught it to me, but it IS truth!!

 

[MaggieMye]

1 Thes 5:23 23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If the soul can be preserved....? I do believe that the 'death' of the soul is a SPIRITUAL MATTER, not physical. Death to a soul happens when it is cut off from God. Even angels have a soul and have a mind, will and emotions. Consider Michael who dared not challenge satan for the body of Moses! He said "the Lord rebuke you" because he did not want to incur satan's wrath at rebuking him himself. Angels can CHOOSE to obey God or to not obey Him. That shows they have a mind and a will. We WILL have souls in heaven. We will have joy and love and peace, all emotions. No soul, no emotion. I suppose, though, that our heavenly souls could be NEW souls, but that would be another can of worms that none of us could support with scripture either way.
Maggie

 

[GospelOnly]

You are taking all of your verses LITERALLY when many of them are FIGURATIVE. "Your Spirit" is better translated "the breath"....which means something entirely different.

n'uf said.

Maggie

Gotta love an opinion comeback to a verse after verse answer.

well I guess if your opinion says its figurative over all the verses from GOD saying otherwise.. Then I guess my God is wrong,


I'll take your lack of scriptures as you don't really know. And your later comment shows you don't remember who you learnt it off, Shows me it was someone not important enough to remember

Glad my teacher is god, not man.

 

[GospelOnly]

Maggiemye
I do believe that the 'death' of the soul is a SPIRITUAL MATTER, not physical. Death to a soul happens when it is cut off from God. Even angels have a soul and have a mind, will and emotions. Consider Michael who dared not challenge satan for the body of Moses! He said "the Lord rebuke you" because he did not want to incur satan's wrath at rebuking him himself. Angels can CHOOSE to obey God or to not obey Him. That shows they have a mind and a will. We WILL have souls in heaven. We will have joy and love and peace, all emotions. No soul, no emotion. I suppose, though, that our heavenly souls could be NEW souls, but that would be another can of worms that none of us could support with scripture either way.
Maggie[/quote]

None of this is scriptural at all, sinning angels??? What is the point of us, if angels can sin, that leaves no hope at all to humanity, thats outrageous.

We will have souls in ‘heaven’? nowhere to be found in scripture.

Talking about can of worms nobody could support.. I think thats all im seeing..no support for any claims and then when support is shown opposite, its rejected. Thats exactly what the Pharisees did.

You are basically saying that souls are immortal from what I can understand in what your saying.. Which is again nowhere to be found in any bible ive ever read.. Mind answering this question at least... Which bible are you reading? The Way Version perhaps?

 

[GospelOnly]

Mpaper,
I think what the bible is saying there is not actually meaning they go in different directions..but ‘who knows’ whether one goes this way or the other, point being...they both have spirits. And they are both their very life’s force. The thing that keeps them alive..both animals and humans.. by the breath of god both kinds live, and at death god takes that spirit/breath of life back. Would you agree with that?
21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth ?

Rendered......."Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (v.22). or otherwords, who can tell whether there is any difference? Incidentally, the word translated "spirit" here is the very same as is rendered "breath" in v.1 9; which shows that "spirit" here is the life resulting from breathing. It ceases when breathing stops.
But at least you can see that the verse is totally saying that beasts and humans are allll animals and the way in which we live is the very same.. through the spirit of god. Which others are for some reason denying, when god is clear on it.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

None of this is scriptural at all, sinning angels??? What is the point of us, if angels can sin, that leaves no hope at all to humanity, thats outrageous.
How would you interpret Jude 6?

We will have souls in ‘heaven’? nowhere to be found in scripture.
James 5:20?

I would be more than happy to take up this discussion with you if that is acceptable. I'm not sure if my beliefs line up exactly with Maggie Mye, but I believe you will find me adequate to the discussion.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Mpaper,
I think what the bible is saying there is not actually meaning they go in different directions..but ‘who knows’ whether one goes this way or the other, point being...they both have spirits. And they are both their very life’s force. The thing that keeps them alive..both animals and humans.. by the breath of god both kinds live, and at death god takes that spirit/breath of life back. Would you agree with that?
21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth ?

Rendered......."Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes downward to the earth?" (v.22). or otherwords, who can tell whether there is any difference? Incidentally, the word translated "spirit" here is the very same as is rendered "breath" in v.1 9; which shows that "spirit" here is the life resulting from breathing. It ceases when breathing stops.
But at least you can see that the verse is totally saying that beasts and humans are allll animals and the way in which we live is the very same.. through the spirit of god. Which others are for some reason denying, when god is clear on it.

I think that the entire point of this scripture is to point out the difference between man and animal. I would contend that animals do not have spirits as humans have, and this verse is showing the difference between the mere breathe that animals have and the imago dei.

 

[GospelOnly]

I think that the entire point of this scripture is to point out the difference between man and animal. I would contend that animals do not have spirits as humans have, and this verse is showing the difference between the mere breathe that animals have and the imago dei.

seems it is saying they have the same spirit to me.

spirit is just the breath of life..they have the same as us according the scripture..its all oxygen afterall. they breath the same us us.. put a dog in a sealed container it will die the same as us.

Think we are getting off what was claimed though..that animals don't have spirit at all, the verse definately says they do. The issue is what does spirit mean here, i say it is the same spirit as most places in the bible talk about.. the breath of life..

I also don't think the verse is saying animal spirits go here and human spirits go there.. its saying, it matters not, they are the same thing.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

seems it is saying they have the same spirit to me.

spirit is just the breath of life..they have the same as us according the scripture..its all oxygen afterall. they breath the same us us.. put a dog in a sealed container it will die the same as us.

Think we are getting off what was claimed though..that animals don't have spirit at all, the verse definately says they do. The issue is what does spirit mean here, i say it is the same spirit as most places in the bible talk about.. the breath of life..

I also don't think the verse is saying animal spirits go here and human spirits go there.. its saying, it matters not, they are the same thing.

If it matters not then why make the distinction. Let us go to a more specific language, Koine Greek. Do you see any evidence in the New Testament that animals have spirits. Keep in mind that "pneuma" is used much more specifically that "ruach".
Regarding the "soul", what is your interpretation of the two scriptures that I referenced?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Well, I will be back the day after tomorrow. I will continue then. Good Night.

 

[GospelOnly]

I would be more than happy to take up this discussion with you if that is acceptable. I'm not sure if my beliefs line up exactly with Maggie Mye, but I believe you will find me adequate to the discussion.

Hi Charisenexcelcis
Again lets stay in context and be careful not to build a new doctrine on one single verse.
Remembering that Angels can be both heavenly and earthly (spiritual or flesh)
Angels simply means messenger. Be it heavenly messengers or human messengers.

Jude is talking about believers bringing in old myths, such as fallen angels. It would seem it is linked to zechariah 3, and his problems with similar myth / legend believers.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Dead until judgement)
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example

This is about the time period after Moses led them out of Egypt. (not pre Adamic as is when the ‘fallen angels theory’ is supposedly to have happened) So the timing is way off yet again.
The angels in this passage are human, not divine angels. This is proven by the following:

• 1. "The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23).
  2. If divine angels were sinners, then they would die.
  3. But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36).
  4. Therefore, the angels which sinned were human, not divine angels.

There is evidence that the human angels were the 250 princes of the Israelitish congregation which were led in rebellion by Korah, Dathan and Abiram. (Num. 16). Consider the following:

• 1. They were "aggeloi" (angels) since they were assigned to "minister" to the congregation. (Num. 16:9).
  2. Their "first estate" or "principality" (Jude 6 mg.) was that of "princes" or "leaders" R.S.V. (Num. 16:2).
  3. They left this "former estate" when they sought the priesthood. (Num. 16:10).
  4. They were delivered into "chains of darkness" when they were swallowed alive by the earth. (Num. 16:31-33).3
  5. They were "sinners" in arrogating to themselves the priesthood. (Num. 16:10, 38).
  6. The judgment is that which will be administered by Christ. (2 Tim. 4:1).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

On James 5:20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Great verse to again show that Souls die. As it definitely implies this here by the words ‘’shall save a soul from death’’.. If a soul couldn’t die it wouldn’t say this.
I’m not sure why you are quoting this verse though to try and show that these souls that don’t die go to heaven? It doesn’t mention destination here at all. Just the fact that they ‘can’ die.. as I’ve been saying all along.
Cheers

 

[GospelOnly]

If it matters not then why make the distinction. Let us go to a more specific language, Koine Greek. Do you see any evidence in the New Testament that animals have spirits. Keep in mind that "pneuma" is used much more specifically that "ruach".
Regarding the "soul", what is your interpretation of the two scriptures that I referenced?

I think you may be missing the point. We are actually agreeing on the thing I was debating with MaggieMye who wrote..

understand that the SOUL is the mind, will and emotions of a person, not a 'living creation'. God created man WITH a soul. The soul cannot function without a body.Animals have a soul, but not a spirit (unless they are hosting demons (Mt 8)

You, I, and others on here are agreeing that animals DO have a spirit.
The details of that are another topic that is not what was being debated and veering further off the topic of do animals have spirit.

We are indeed agreeing with each other and disagreeing with MaggieMye.

 

[MaggieMye]

IMMORTAL SOUL
Genesis 35:18
It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
This does not say the soul dies, but that it LEAVES
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls;
If souls die and cease to exist, there is no need for atonement for a soul
Psalm 16:10
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol;Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
Sheol is an eternal place
Psalm 49:8
For the redemption of his soul is costly redemption is for the eternal
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death, Indeed my feet from stumbling, So that I may walk before GodIn the light of the living.　
　
THE SOUL CAN DIE:
Judges 16:16
It came about when she pressed him daily with her words and urged him, that his soul was annoyed to death.
Job 7:15
So that my soul would choose suffocation,Death rather than my pains.
Psalm 7:5
Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it;And let him trample my life down to the groundAnd lay my glory in the dust. Selah.
Psalm 17:13
Arise, O LORD, confront him, bring him low; Deliver my soul from the wicked with Your sword, indicating that it could be killed
Psalm 22:20
Deliver my soul from the sword,My only life from the power of the dog.
Psalm 22:29
All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
Psalm 33:19
To deliver their soul from death And to keep them alive in famine.
Psalm 41:4
As for me, I said, "O LORD, be gracious to me; Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You." the soul can be sick and need healing, can it not be sick to the point of death?
Psalm 78:50
He leveled a path for His anger;He did not spare their soul from death,But gave over their life to the plague,
Psalm 89:48
What man can live and not see death?Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.
Psalm 97:10
Hate evil, you who love the LORD,Who preserves the souls of His godly ones;He delivers them from the hand of the wicked souls can be preserved…..or not, His choice.

There are many more, but you get the point.
PONT BEING that there are verses to support both. Context is so important, as is understanding if a verse is literal or figurative….a study of hermeneutics would be helpful.
Maggie




　

 

[GospelOnly]

IMMORTAL SOUL
Genesis 35:18
It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.
This does not say the soul dies, but that it LEAVES
Leviticus 17:11
'For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls;
If souls die and cease to exist, there is no need for atonement for a soul
Psalm 16:10
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol;Nor will You allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.
Sheol is an eternal place
Psalm 49:8
For the redemption of his soul is costly redemption is for the eternal
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death, Indeed my feet from stumbling, So that I may walk before GodIn the light of the living.　
　
THE SOUL CAN DIE:
Judges 16:16
It came about when she pressed him daily with her words and urged him, that his soul was annoyed to death.
Job 7:15
So that my soul would choose suffocation,Death rather than my pains.
Psalm 7:5
Let the enemy pursue my soul and overtake it;And let him trample my life down to the groundAnd lay my glory in the dust. Selah.
Psalm 17:13
Arise, O LORD, confront him, bring him low; Deliver my soul from the wicked with Your sword, indicating that it could be killed
Psalm 22:20
Deliver my soul from the sword,My only life from the power of the dog.
Psalm 22:29
All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
Psalm 33:19
To deliver their soul from death And to keep them alive in famine.
Psalm 41:4
As for me, I said, "O LORD, be gracious to me; Heal my soul, for I have sinned against You." the soul can be sick and need healing, can it not be sick to the point of death?
Psalm 78:50
He leveled a path for His anger;He did not spare their soul from death,But gave over their life to the plague,
Psalm 89:48
What man can live and not see death?Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah.
Psalm 97:10
Hate evil, you who love the LORD,Who preserves the souls of His godly ones;He delivers them from the hand of the wicked souls can be preserved…..or not, His choice.

There are many more, but you get the point.
PONT BEING that there are verses to support both. Context is so important, as is understanding if a verse is literal or figurative….a study of hermeneutics would be helpful.
Maggie




　

There are many more, but you get the point.
PONT BEING that there are verses to support both. Context is so important, as is understanding if a verse is literal or figurative….a study of hermeneutics would be helpful.
Maggie
Believers in the concept of an immortal soul should consider some "difficulties" that exist if in fact all men have immortal souls:
1) Why did God not reveal that all men have immortal souls right from the beginning? The book of Genesis is silent about such a doctrine. There is no mention of eternal torments for the souls of the wicked in Genesis, or in Exodus, etc... Would not something so important and vital to the well-being of all mankind be revealed right from the beginning? Many Christians point out that the doctrine of immortal souls and their eternal torment in hell was something that was hidden from the Hebrews and only in the New Testament was this "truth" fully revealed. If this be the case, then one must admit that God kept this "truth" a near-secret for thousands of years, waiting only for Jesus and his disciples to appear and reveal this truth to their listeners. Do you have any idea of how many ignorant, wicked "souls" from Adam to Christ entered an eternity of suffering and torment simply because it wasn't time to reveal this truth to them during their eras?
2) If all men have immortal souls, then it begs the question, when exactly did these immortal souls come into existence? Does an unborn baby have an immortal soul? Does a fetus have an immortal soul? Does a fertilized egg at conception have an immortal soul? If so, what do these immortal souls look like if the unborn baby dies in the womb? Does the soul of a stillborn baby instantly gain full adulthood in appearance when they reach heaven (or hell)? Do the souls of these dead babies have fully developed brains when they reach heaven (or hell)? Where will they have gained the knowledge to speak and the powers of memory and reason? What does instantly elevating a dead baby into the presence of Jesus in heaven do to the core doctrines of the Christian faith, such as, "Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6) , "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10)?
3) If an immortal soul comes into existence at the moment an egg is fertilized in the mother's womb, then that would mean that our immortal soul at one point did not exist. If this be true, then why is it inconceivable that this immortal soul could not once more cease from existing? In other words, if our soul at one time did not exist, why cannot that state of non-existence repeat itself?
4) If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc.. - based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man... then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless. William Tyndale, who first translated the Bible into English made the point:
"And ye, in putting them (the dead) in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection....if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of a resurrection.... The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together: things so contrary that they cannot agree....And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."
William Tyndale was able to see what most in our day cannot. A resurrection of those who are still alive (in heaven or hell) is no resurrection at all but an empty show.

Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:13-18
5) The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?
6) Revelation 20:13, 15: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What purpose is the Final Judgment if all men and their immortal souls are judged immediately upon death? What sense is there in calling back the dead from "hell"? If the "****ed" are sent to a fiery, eternal torment when they die, then what is the logic of judging them a second time at the "Final Judgment"? Will there be new evidence that will exonerate some of the ****ed so that a new "final" verdict will move them from hell to heaven? Will new witnesses come forward to testify that some of the wicked were in fact righteous and that they were assigned to the fiery torment in error? If not, then what purpose does it serve to raise the dead? Is not their future fate the same as the one they were experiencing prior to the Final Judgment?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Hi Charisenexcelcis
Again lets stay in context and be careful not to build a new doctrine on one single verse.
Remembering that Angels can be both heavenly and earthly (spiritual or flesh)
Angels simply means messenger. Be it heavenly messengers or human messengers.

Jude is talking about believers bringing in old myths, such as fallen angels.
This is your a priori. What it says in Jude 4 is that he is speaking of those who would deny Christ (our only Master and Lord) and would exchange grace for libertinism.
It would seem it is linked to zechariah 3, and his problems with similar myth / legend believers.
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. (Dead until judgement)
7Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example

This is about the time period after Moses led them out of Egypt.
Your strict adherence to this would put Sodom and Gomorrah also at the time of Moses.(not pre Adamic as is when the ‘fallen angels theory’ is supposedly to have happened) So the timing is way off yet again.
I do not believe that this is a time-locked passage, but is rather topical.

The angels in this passage are human, not divine angels. This is proven by the following:

• 1. "The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23).
  2. If divine angels were sinners, then they would die.
  3. But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36).
  4. Therefore, the angels which sinned were human, not divine angels.

I think that your syllogism is flawed. It assumes the two lines of teaching have a point of context.
There is evidence that the human angels were the 250 princes of the Israelitish congregation which were led in rebellion by Korah, Dathan and Abiram. (Num. 16). Consider the following:

• 1. They were "aggeloi" (angels) since they were assigned to "minister" to the congregation. (Num. 16:9).

Obviously, since the word "angelloi" is Greek you mean "malk" Notice your shift from "messenger" to "minister".

• 1. Their "first estate" or "principality" (Jude 6 mg.) was that of "princes" or "leaders" R.S.V. (Num. 16:2).
  2. They left this "former estate" when they sought the priesthood. (Num. 16:10).
  3. They were delivered into "chains of darkness" when they were swallowed alive by the earth. (Num. 16:31-33).3
  4. They were "sinners" in arrogating to themselves the priesthood. (Num. 16:10, 38).
  5. The judgment is that which will be administered by Christ. (2 Tim. 4:1).

A strange string of assumptions that would be easily solved if Jude had said, the 250 Israeli princes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​

On James 5:20
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Great verse to again show that Souls die. As it definitely implies this here by the words ‘’shall save a soul from death’’.. If a soul couldn’t die it wouldn’t say this.
I’m not sure why you are quoting this verse though to try and show that these souls that don’t die go to heaven? It doesn’t mention destination here at all. Just the fact that they ‘can’ die.. as I’ve been saying all along.
To save them to what. if souls are saved from death, what are they saved to?
Cheers

Wow, I don't even know what to say about these interpretive gymnastics. I myself am a dichotomist, so the entire line of arguments about the soul are a little different from my perspective.