FOR THOSE WHO SAY THAT CHRIST IS NOT GOD.
- Thread starter bluto
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
councils spelled out the doctrine.
---
Jesus said we would be one with Him, does that make us Jesus?
TF thank you for the great discussion. hope i didnt offend you with anything i said. i am going to cut myself off from this discussion as i dont agree with discussing topics that tend to get heated and feelings hurt on sundays.
---
Jesus said we would be one with Him, does that make us Jesus?
TF thank you for the great discussion. hope i didnt offend you with anything i said. i am going to cut myself off from this discussion as i dont agree with discussing topics that tend to get heated and feelings hurt on sundays.
Well jaybird there are a number of places but my personal favorite is John 10:30. And when you say "one" in what respect are you asking how they are one? The one God, one person, one in purpose, or how are they one? But before I address this issue why have you not address what I posted to you regading another question you ask. Please read the following:
"That's right jaybird, He did teach that but obviously you don't know why? So can you please tell me how you reconcile what Jesus said at John 4:23 to what the Apostle Thomas said at John 20:28 where he declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God?" Which btw is the highest form of worship for an orthodox Jew to say to a man only (like you and others believe) that Jesus Christ is his "Lord and God."
So why would Thomas say that and moreover why does Jesus Christ not correct Thomas and tell him is wrong? I mean afterall did not Jesus Himself say at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." How do you explain or reconcile all of this jaybird? I would really like to know?
" I'm still waiting for your answer?
Now, getting back to this one business. When Trinitarians say that the three pesons of the Trinity are one they usually mean "one in nature." There is plenty of proof that they are one in purpose but at John 10:30 Jesus is telling the Jews that He and His Father, we are one."
In this context Jesus had just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. Even more importantly Jesus is explaining out of those words literally "I and the Father, we are one." Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." The word "one" in this instance is "hen." It is a neuter number to indicate, EQUALITY OF ESSENCE, ATTRIBUTES, DESIGN, WILL AND WORK. In short, one asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.
This is backed by how the Jews react to what Jesus had said. John 10:31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why jaybird? Vs33 gives the answer, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."
At this point don't let ANYONE tell you or come up with the excuse that I have heard hundreds of times that the Jews did not UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying in may instances by accusing Him of blasphemy. The Jews were "NOT" taking Jesus out of context and they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. The reason I know this for a fact is because at John 10:36 Jesus directly addresses the issue of Him being accused of blasphemy which means that at John 10:30 Jesus is not simply talking about He and His Father being one in unity or purpose in the same vain as John 17:21.
So jaybird, instead of asking only "why" questions all the time how about addressing some of the answers that have been given you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"That's right jaybird, He did teach that but obviously you don't know why? So can you please tell me how you reconcile what Jesus said at John 4:23 to what the Apostle Thomas said at John 20:28 where he declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God?" Which btw is the highest form of worship for an orthodox Jew to say to a man only (like you and others believe) that Jesus Christ is his "Lord and God."
So why would Thomas say that and moreover why does Jesus Christ not correct Thomas and tell him is wrong? I mean afterall did not Jesus Himself say at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." How do you explain or reconcile all of this jaybird? I would really like to know?
" I'm still waiting for your answer? Now, getting back to this one business. When Trinitarians say that the three pesons of the Trinity are one they usually mean "one in nature." There is plenty of proof that they are one in purpose but at John 10:30 Jesus is telling the Jews that He and His Father, we are one."
In this context Jesus had just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. Even more importantly Jesus is explaining out of those words literally "I and the Father, we are one." Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." The word "one" in this instance is "hen." It is a neuter number to indicate, EQUALITY OF ESSENCE, ATTRIBUTES, DESIGN, WILL AND WORK. In short, one asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.
This is backed by how the Jews react to what Jesus had said. John 10:31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why jaybird? Vs33 gives the answer, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."
At this point don't let ANYONE tell you or come up with the excuse that I have heard hundreds of times that the Jews did not UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying in may instances by accusing Him of blasphemy. The Jews were "NOT" taking Jesus out of context and they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. The reason I know this for a fact is because at John 10:36 Jesus directly addresses the issue of Him being accused of blasphemy which means that at John 10:30 Jesus is not simply talking about He and His Father being one in unity or purpose in the same vain as John 17:21.
So jaybird, instead of asking only "why" questions all the time how about addressing some of the answers that have been given you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Well jaybird there are a number of places but my personal favorite is John 10:30. And when you say "one" in what respect are you asking how they are one? The one God, one person, one in purpose, or how are they one? But before I address this issue why have you not address what I posted to you regading another question you ask. Please read the following:
"That's right jaybird, He did teach that but obviously you don't know why? So can you please tell me how you reconcile what Jesus said at John 4:23 to what the Apostle Thomas said at John 20:28 where he declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God?" Which btw is the highest form of worship for an orthodox Jew to say to a man only (like you and others believe) that Jesus Christ is his "Lord and God."
So why would Thomas say that and moreover why does Jesus Christ not correct Thomas and tell him is wrong? I mean afterall did not Jesus Himself say at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." How do you explain or reconcile all of this jaybird? I would really like to know?" I'm still waiting for your answer?
Now, getting back to this one business. When Trinitarians say that the three pesons of the Trinity are one they usually mean "one in nature." There is plenty of proof that they are one in purpose but at John 10:30 Jesus is telling the Jews that He and His Father, we are one."
In this context Jesus had just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. Even more importantly Jesus is explaining out of those words literally "I and the Father, we are one." Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." The word "one" in this instance is "hen." It is a neuter number to indicate, EQUALITY OF ESSENCE, ATTRIBUTES, DESIGN, WILL AND WORK. In short, one asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.
This is backed by how the Jews react to what Jesus had said. John 10:31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why jaybird? Vs33 gives the answer, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."
At this point don't let ANYONE tell you or come up with the excuse that I have heard hundreds of times that the Jews did not UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying in may instances by accusing Him of blasphemy. The Jews were "NOT" taking Jesus out of context and they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. The reason I know this for a fact is because at John 10:36 Jesus directly addresses the issue of Him being accused of blasphemy which means that at John 10:30 Jesus is not simply talking about He and His Father being one in unity or purpose in the same vain as John 17:21.
So jaybird, instead of asking only "why" questions all the time how about addressing some of the answers that have been given you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"That's right jaybird, He did teach that but obviously you don't know why? So can you please tell me how you reconcile what Jesus said at John 4:23 to what the Apostle Thomas said at John 20:28 where he declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God?" Which btw is the highest form of worship for an orthodox Jew to say to a man only (like you and others believe) that Jesus Christ is his "Lord and God."
So why would Thomas say that and moreover why does Jesus Christ not correct Thomas and tell him is wrong? I mean afterall did not Jesus Himself say at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." How do you explain or reconcile all of this jaybird? I would really like to know?
" I'm still waiting for your answer? Now, getting back to this one business. When Trinitarians say that the three pesons of the Trinity are one they usually mean "one in nature." There is plenty of proof that they are one in purpose but at John 10:30 Jesus is telling the Jews that He and His Father, we are one."
In this context Jesus had just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. Even more importantly Jesus is explaining out of those words literally "I and the Father, we are one." Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." The word "one" in this instance is "hen." It is a neuter number to indicate, EQUALITY OF ESSENCE, ATTRIBUTES, DESIGN, WILL AND WORK. In short, one asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.
This is backed by how the Jews react to what Jesus had said. John 10:31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why jaybird? Vs33 gives the answer, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."
At this point don't let ANYONE tell you or come up with the excuse that I have heard hundreds of times that the Jews did not UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying in may instances by accusing Him of blasphemy. The Jews were "NOT" taking Jesus out of context and they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. The reason I know this for a fact is because at John 10:36 Jesus directly addresses the issue of Him being accused of blasphemy which means that at John 10:30 Jesus is not simply talking about He and His Father being one in unity or purpose in the same vain as John 17:21.
So jaybird, instead of asking only "why" questions all the time how about addressing some of the answers that have been given you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 1 Corinthians 3:6-8
One in purpose.
J
are we talking about the same roman empire? i am talking about the one that ruled Judea, was the enemy of Jesus and the 12, killed Jesus, killed most the Apostles, imprisoned one, killed st Paul and burned down the Lords temple. they also did not become Christian until failing to destroy it for more than 200 years. yet we are to believe that rome changed from being the bad guys to being the good guys? their actions sure did not show that because nothing changed. the rich payed no tax, the poor payed all tax, the rich shared the benefits of expansion, the poor got nothing out of roman expansion. the leadership at the top was full of homosexuality and pedophilia as well as every other act of debauchery.
if someone found a lost book that claimed the Most High moved His temple to the land of the philistines or canaanites we would think it was a joke. rome was no better than those guys.
to rebel against the Lords anointed is to rebel against the Most High Himself. the Canaanites and philistines were both judged very harshly for doing exactly that. and romes Judgment, for doing that exact same thing is they are given the new base of operations for the new church? im scratching my head on that.
if someone found a lost book that claimed the Most High moved His temple to the land of the philistines or canaanites we would think it was a joke. rome was no better than those guys.
to rebel against the Lords anointed is to rebel against the Most High Himself. the Canaanites and philistines were both judged very harshly for doing exactly that. and romes Judgment, for doing that exact same thing is they are given the new base of operations for the new church? im scratching my head on that.
J
Jesus said we would all be one with Jesus. does that make us Jesus?
see post 204
i am familure with Jesus and the Apostles teaching "He" is one. i dont know of any passages that teach "they" are one.
"He" is singular
i think Jesus and the pharisees were on the same page of understanding. Jesus confirms their accusation:
John 10 36
So why do you accuse me of insulting God for saying, ‘I am God’s Son’?
as well as refers them to a scripture, psalm 82
the pharisees knew the ones Jesus refereed to in psalm 82 were not your everyday men. these men were sons of the Most High, like Adam before the fall. and unlike normal men, sons of the Most High do not die.
also blasphemy is profaning the name of the Most High which Jesus did not do. the blasphemy they are talking about is most likely a pharisee doctrine.
and if in fact this is what they are calling blasphemy then we have a good example of what Jesus was teaching against, the pharisees taking one of their manmade laws and elevating it equal to laws of the Most High.
i wonder if in todays world man is still taking doctrines and elevating them to equal authority as laws of the Most High?
"That's right jaybird, He did teach that but obviously you don't know why? So can you please tell me how you reconcile what Jesus said at John 4:23 to what the Apostle Thomas said at John 20:28 where he declared to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God?" Which btw is the highest form of worship for an orthodox Jew to say to a man only (like you and others believe) that Jesus Christ is his "Lord and God."
So why would Thomas say that and moreover why does Jesus Christ not correct Thomas and tell him is wrong? I mean afterall did not Jesus Himself say at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." How do you explain or reconcile all of this jaybird? I would really like to know?" I'm still waiting for your answer?
So why would Thomas say that and moreover why does Jesus Christ not correct Thomas and tell him is wrong? I mean afterall did not Jesus Himself say at Luke 4:8, "It is written, You shall worship the Lord your God and serve Him only." How do you explain or reconcile all of this jaybird? I would really like to know?
" I'm still waiting for your answer?
Now, getting back to this one business. When Trinitarians say that the three pesons of the Trinity are one they usually mean "one in nature." There is plenty of proof that they are one in purpose but at John 10:30 Jesus is telling the Jews that He and His Father, we are one."
In this context Jesus had just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. Even more importantly Jesus is explaining out of those words literally "I and the Father, we are one." Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." The word "one" in this instance is "hen." It is a neuter number to indicate, EQUALITY OF ESSENCE, ATTRIBUTES, DESIGN, WILL AND WORK. In short, one asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.
This is backed by how the Jews react to what Jesus had said. John 10:31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why jaybird? Vs33 gives the answer, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."
At this point don't let ANYONE tell you or come up with the excuse that I have heard hundreds of times that the Jews did not UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying in may instances by accusing Him of blasphemy. The Jews were "NOT" taking Jesus out of context and they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. The reason I know this for a fact is because at John 10:36 Jesus directly addresses the issue of Him being accused of blasphemy which means that at John 10:30 Jesus is not simply talking about He and His Father being one in unity or purpose in the same vain as John 17:21.
So jaybird, instead of asking only "why" questions all the time how about addressing some of the answers that have been given you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
In this context Jesus had just said that the sheep are equally safe in His hand and in His Father's hand. The power of the Son is equal to that of the Father. Even more importantly Jesus is explaining out of those words literally "I and the Father, we are one." Jesus distinguishes the "I" from the "Father" and uses the plural verb "are" denoting "we are." The word "one" in this instance is "hen." It is a neuter number to indicate, EQUALITY OF ESSENCE, ATTRIBUTES, DESIGN, WILL AND WORK. In short, one asserts their unity of essence or nature as identical.
This is backed by how the Jews react to what Jesus had said. John 10:31, "The Jews took up stones again to stone Him." Why jaybird? Vs33 gives the answer, "The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for BLASPHEMY; and because You, being a man, MAKE YOURSELF OUT GOD."
At this point don't let ANYONE tell you or come up with the excuse that I have heard hundreds of times that the Jews did not UNDERSTAND what Jesus was saying in may instances by accusing Him of blasphemy. The Jews were "NOT" taking Jesus out of context and they knew exactly what Jesus was claiming. The reason I know this for a fact is because at John 10:36 Jesus directly addresses the issue of Him being accused of blasphemy which means that at John 10:30 Jesus is not simply talking about He and His Father being one in unity or purpose in the same vain as John 17:21.
So jaybird, instead of asking only "why" questions all the time how about addressing some of the answers that have been given you?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
"He" is singular
i think Jesus and the pharisees were on the same page of understanding. Jesus confirms their accusation:
John 10 36
So why do you accuse me of insulting God for saying, ‘I am God’s Son’?
as well as refers them to a scripture, psalm 82
the pharisees knew the ones Jesus refereed to in psalm 82 were not your everyday men. these men were sons of the Most High, like Adam before the fall. and unlike normal men, sons of the Most High do not die.
also blasphemy is profaning the name of the Most High which Jesus did not do. the blasphemy they are talking about is most likely a pharisee doctrine.
and if in fact this is what they are calling blasphemy then we have a good example of what Jesus was teaching against, the pharisees taking one of their manmade laws and elevating it equal to laws of the Most High.
i wonder if in todays world man is still taking doctrines and elevating them to equal authority as laws of the Most High?
Last edited by a moderator:
Oh boy jaybird, here we go again? When you said this your missing the point. "Jesus said we would all be one with Jesus. does that make us Jesus?" Again John 10:30 and it's immediate context is Jesus telling the Jews He is one in "nature or essence" with His Father. And the Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant because right away in the very next verse they want to stone/kill because by Jesus basically saying He is equal to His Father means in their mind Jesus was blaspheming the name of God. The problem for the Jews was the "FACT" that Jesus was telling the truth and yet they (like you) don't believe Jesus which means He was not blaspheming.
And I already said the Jews understood what Jesus was saying because Jesus Himself confirms their concerns by addressing those concerns at John 10:36. Jesus in all of this was "NOT" saying Him and His Father are one in purpose because that is not a blasphemous. Look at this way. Let's say your at a football game and your favorite team is playing. I'll pick the Denver Broncos as an example. Your in those stands cheering on your team hoping they will win. You one with the team in that you support them. Just because your cheering them on and one with them with the same goal they have which is winning the game does "NOT" mean or make you a football player participating in the game. Of course the disciples are not Jesus but they have the same goal in mind. Does this make any sense to you jaybird?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And I already said the Jews understood what Jesus was saying because Jesus Himself confirms their concerns by addressing those concerns at John 10:36. Jesus in all of this was "NOT" saying Him and His Father are one in purpose because that is not a blasphemous. Look at this way. Let's say your at a football game and your favorite team is playing. I'll pick the Denver Broncos as an example. Your in those stands cheering on your team hoping they will win. You one with the team in that you support them. Just because your cheering them on and one with them with the same goal they have which is winning the game does "NOT" mean or make you a football player participating in the game. Of course the disciples are not Jesus but they have the same goal in mind. Does this make any sense to you jaybird?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
Oh boy jaybird, here we go again? When you said this your missing the point. "Jesus said we would all be one with Jesus. does that make us Jesus?" Again John 10:30 and it's immediate context is Jesus telling the Jews He is one in "nature or essence" with His Father. And the Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant because right away in the very next verse they want to stone/kill because by Jesus basically saying He is equal to His Father means in their mind Jesus was blaspheming the name of God. The problem for the Jews was the "FACT" that Jesus was telling the truth and yet they (like you) don't believe Jesus which means He was not blaspheming.
And I already said the Jews understood what Jesus was saying because Jesus Himself confirms their concerns by addressing those concerns at John 10:36. Jesus in all of this was "NOT" saying Him and His Father are one in purpose because that is not a blasphemous. Look at this way. Let's say your at a football game and your favorite team is playing. I'll pick the Denver Broncos as an example. Your in those stands cheering on your team hoping they will win. You one with the team in that you support them. Just because your cheering them on and one with them with the same goal they have which is winning the game does "NOT" mean or make you a football player participating in the game. Of course the disciples are not Jesus but they have the same goal in mind. Does this make any sense to you jaybird?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
And I already said the Jews understood what Jesus was saying because Jesus Himself confirms their concerns by addressing those concerns at John 10:36. Jesus in all of this was "NOT" saying Him and His Father are one in purpose because that is not a blasphemous. Look at this way. Let's say your at a football game and your favorite team is playing. I'll pick the Denver Broncos as an example. Your in those stands cheering on your team hoping they will win. You one with the team in that you support them. Just because your cheering them on and one with them with the same goal they have which is winning the game does "NOT" mean or make you a football player participating in the game. Of course the disciples are not Jesus but they have the same goal in mind. Does this make any sense to you jaybird?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Come on jaybird, I challenged you when I first joined CC for your errant beliefs and especially your denial that Jesus Christ is not God. Dodging you, please. Now your asking me, "what is blasphemy?" Why can't you do your own homework and learn about what it is? In fact, you tell me what it is and how the Jews tried to apply it to Jesus and then we'll go from there. Does not this sound fair?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
J
Come on jaybird, I challenged you when I first joined CC for your errant beliefs and especially your denial that Jesus Christ is not God. Dodging you, please. Now your asking me, "what is blasphemy?" Why can't you do your own homework and learn about what it is? In fact, you tell me what it is and how the Jews tried to apply it to Jesus and then we'll go from there. Does not this sound fair?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
i dont get it? do you really want to discuss this? im responding to every point you make, then i make my points, you ignore them and go right back to where you started from.
if im developing my own views on scripture I test them against both sides of the coin, i dont filter out the scriptures i dont want to hear.