True Baptism

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Dec 28, 2016
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This is what usually happens when a person has no legitimate rebuttal of a statement.... they turn it into an accusation of all kinds of imagined "slights" against themselves.
Try being honest and quote the entire response, not just the portion you wish to attack? Thanks. You attempt to make it appear as that was my only response and rebuttal of your statements. Try being honest and present the whole thing in context?

I was neither snide, nor snarky.
You were both. And now you're adding some dishonesty to your arsenal.

At the very worst, I was a tad sarcastic in my response to you. If sarcasm offends you, well... I don't know what to tell you.
You don't offend me and can't, just making note of how you behave here, that is, you make unfounded statements.

Now, care to address my full response, or do you wish to only make things appear the way you wish them to appear?

Now, I've stated you're not into parsing, exegesis, something you belittled and attempted to appear as one who takes things at face value only. This is by your own words.

I've attempted to demonstrate you have not employed any exegesis, in fact, you reject exegesis by your taking things only at face value.

Thus my quote:
I've yet to see you demonstrate this. Seems you're more into being snide and snarky. ;)
Now, if you can prove that you've used exegesis, go for it, up to this point you have not.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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So, to be clear, just how many baptisms ARE there?

And, where are scriptural references on HOW to accomplish each of them?
How do you become "baptized in the Holy Spirit" ? Is there a process spelled out somewhere? Or is it something that happens when you accept Jesus, and are immersed, as commanded?

Otherwise, how do you reconcile all of them with the scripture of "one Lord, one faith, one baptism", when there are so many scriptures, and historical evidences that show us that Jesus, the apostles, and all followers of Jesus believed in the necessity of being immersed, in water?
I have spent my christian life wondering about this.

What people confuse with baptism in the Holy Spirit is anointing in the Spirit.
The Lord comes upon people at different times with great exaltation and closeness.

Gifts such as tongues, prophecy often come as well or show themselves.

At the time of being born again, coming to faith, the Holy Spirit comes within a person.
Whether this shows outwardly in exstatic utterances appears to vary widely.

I have had hands laid on me by different people, some meant nothing, but I would not
lay any great import on them.

As far as the spirit coming on people like at pentecost, the disciples saw when gentiles
came to faith, the Lord showed himself through the gifts, so they knew He was there.

I think we get too analytical about our walk with Jesus, rather than rejoicing in what He
gives us, and praising Him for every blessing. This is my testimony. God bless you.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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small note - reading p4T response is like listening to a machine gun going off.

There are contributors who do this constantly, and I have never understood why in the Lord
they think this is helpful, but then we all have our own personality traits. God bless you all.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water for repentance.. (NASB) Was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? (which makes no sense at all) or was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? So water baptism does not obtain repentance or the remission of sins, but is done "in regards to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. ​*What happened to baptism?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." *This was prior to receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).
Taking verses individually and pointing out that baptism is not in this certain scripture does not negate its importance. All your verses relate to others scriptures that tie in baptism as a command for the remission of sins. I could do the same with these verses.

Luke 24:47 - What happened to faith?
Acts 3:19 - What happened to faith?
Acts 5:31 - What happened to faith?
Acts 11:18 - What happened to faith?

If we are to use this reasoning, what about James 1:27?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

No mention of any faith, repentance or baptism yet these works are labeled as a religion that is "pure and faultless".

Baptism for the remission of sins is clearly commanded, not in every single verse but still commanded.

You are just fighting the obvious to protect a theology.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Taking verses individually and pointing out that baptism is not in this certain scripture does not negate its importance. All your verses relate to others scriptures that tie in baptism as a command for the remission of sins. I could do the same with these verses.

Luke 24:47 - What happened to faith?
Acts 3:19 - What happened to faith?
Acts 5:31 - What happened to faith?
Acts 11:18 - What happened to faith?

If we are to use this reasoning, what about James 1:27?

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

No mention of any faith, repentance or baptism yet these works are labeled as a religion that is "pure and faultless".

Baptism for the remission of sins is clearly commanded, not in every single verse but still commanded.

You are just fighting the obvious to protect a theology.
Remission of sin is found only in the blood of Jesus Christ not in water.

The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit administered only by God and only according to His Sovereign will through grace.

Water baptism is done by man and through the will of man. Water baptism does not save and does not forgive sin. The man who has been cleansed by the blood of Christ and baptized unto new life eternal in the Holy Spirit will desire water baptism to show outwardly what has occurred inwardly.

There are many fillings of the Holy Spirit for service after the soul has been cleansed first baptized in the Holy Spirit unto eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Dec 28, 2016
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In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water for repentance.. (NASB) Was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? (which makes no sense at all) or was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? So water baptism does not obtain repentance or the remission of sins, but is done "in regards to/on the basis of" remission of sins received upon repentance.

Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:31 - Him God has exalted to His right hand to be Prince and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. ​*What happened to baptism?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." *This was prior to receiving water baptism (Acts 10:43-47).
Those who are against this truth will not listen to reason brother.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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Yet many unbelievers in various false religions and cults still end up gettting water baptized because they trust in water baptism (along with other works to save them). Such people may even believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts about Christ (just as the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" - James 2:19), yet they don't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.
The question was why would you baptize a unbeliever?

If someone states they do not believe why would anyone wish to baptize them? We all are baptized with different levels of understanding but to baptize in a state of unbelief is absurd.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

No mention of any faith, repentance or baptism yet these works are labeled as a religion that is "pure and faultless".

Baptism for the remission of sins is clearly commanded, not in every single verse but still commanded.
You are just fighting the obvious to protect a theology.
This is true.Everything is faith alone to some people,but the Bible says charity is greater than faith,which charity is love in action.

Abraham was justified by works,and his faith made perfect,because he obeyed God,love God.Rahab was justified by works when she helped the 2 Jewish men have safe passage,love people.

The 2 greatest commandments,love God,and love people,and charity is love in action,and charity is greater than faith.

Jesus said be born of water and the Spirit,putting a distinction between water and the Spirit,that they are two separate experiences.

And the Bible says if we are planted together in the likeness of His death,we will arise to newness of life,and in another place baptism also now does save us,not the washing away of the filth of the flesh,but a good conscience towards God.

The man Christ Jesus died,was buried,and rose again.

And we as a human have to repent,be water baptized,and receive the Spirit.

And the Bible says we are a living sacrifice unto God.

Water baptism is part of the salvation plan of God,and they cannot be made out to be a work that is not necessary.

Faith alone,not saved by works,when we confess Christ for that is all we can do.

But after we receive the Spirit,the situation changes to spiritual,then it a person is justified by works,and not faith alone.

Because charity is greater than faith,and charity is love in action,it has the works of God,and the works of loving people,that is required.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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Water baptism is done by man and through the will of man. Water baptism does not save and does not forgive sin. The man who has been cleansed by the blood of Christ and baptized unto new life eternal in the Holy Spirit will desire water baptism to show outwardly what has occurred inwardly.
Again.... if it is an optional "sign", then why did they all teach it, and expect it as a part of salvation?

You could as easily say that participating in communion is done by man, and by the will of man, because it is a physical act. Why don't we simply meditate on Jesus and our relationship with him, instead of going to all the trouble of preparing wine and unleavened bread? Is that optional, as well? If it is only an "outward sign" of our relationship with Jesus, why bother?
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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Remission of sin is found only in the blood of Jesus Christ not in water.

The baptism that saves is the baptism of the Holy Spirit administered only by God and only according to His Sovereign will through grace.

Water baptism is done by man and through the will of man. Water baptism does not save and does not forgive sin. The man who has been cleansed by the blood of Christ and baptized unto new life eternal in the Holy Spirit will desire water baptism to show outwardly what has occurred inwardly.

There are many fillings of the Holy Spirit for service after the soul has been cleansed first baptized in the Holy Spirit unto eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Your words are philosophy and not scripture. They sound very churchy but deny what is clearly written.

Salvation is expressed in practical terms not the generalities you present. The Great Commission is practical and simple not based on metaphors and theory.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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For the record, I don't see baptism as optional as do some. Let's not truncate the Gospel nor lend a hand to rebellious "belief" and easy believe-ism.

None of us should be attending here:



If a person gladly receives God's Gospel message, and salvation from their wicked sin, there will be no hesitation to follow Him in baptism.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Oh, and this:

After preaching the Gospel several years back a man wanted to come join at church and publicly declare his salvation and present himself for public baptism that next Sunday.

The preacher of that church? He told him he doesn't need to be baptized, and told me the same thing.

This happened at a local SBC church.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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this wouldnt be a problem if we baptized someone in water the second they become believers. eazy.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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Oh, and this:

After preaching the Gospel several years back a man wanted to come join at church and publicly declare his salvation and present himself for public baptism that next Sunday.

The preacher of that church? He told him he doesn't need to be baptized, and told me the same thing.

This happened at a local SBC church.
And this is the problem with the whole "it's not that big a deal, it's simply a sign" belief system. Under that system, there is not nearly the importance placed on baptism, as there is in scripture. Then you end up with preachers/teachers telling people it makes no difference.

That opinion is clearly NOT what scripture teaches.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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So, to be clear, just how many baptisms ARE there?
Hi, I would offer two...one not seen the faith principle and the other as ceremonial seen the shadow used in a parable to represent that not seen the eternal faith principle. The water as that seen has its foundation in the Old Testament.

It was required in purification ceremony as a new member desired to work as a Priest. That has not changed it remains ceremonial same purpose. There is nothing we can do outwardly that could prove we have the Spirit of Christ inwardly. It is not a tradition that begins in the new testament.

The unbelieving Jew (no faith) have always required as sign before they would believe. Therefore stumbling over the cross..

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. . Joh 3:25

And, where are scriptural references on HOW to accomplish each of them?
How do you become "baptized in the Holy Spirit" ? Is there a process spelled out somewhere? Or is it something that happens when you accept Jesus, and are immersed, as commanded?

We can only love Him... because he first loved us by giving us His hearing according to His faith that does work in a believer to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness.

It’s something that happens when he accepts us chosen from the foundation of the world.. How the shadow is applied(splashed or dipped) does not determine the outcome.

When Aaron's Son desired to join the ministry they died because they wanted to add something to it as if it could make a change in a persons heart. Shadows point to the true as signs to observe not seek after.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
Oh, and this:

After preaching the Gospel several years back a man wanted to come join at church and publicly declare his salvation and present himself for public baptism that next Sunday.

The preacher of that church? He told him he doesn't need to be baptized, and told me the same thing.

This happened at a local SBC church.
Its the purpose of all ceremonial laws as shadows seen. They are used signify as a sign seen as ..the faith principle to reveal the unseen eternal. You could say just as the Doctor of our soul ordered.(2 Corinthians 4:18)

A person is not closer to God with them our without them.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,623
1,381
113
Hi, I would offer two...one not seen the faith principle and the other as ceremonial seen the shadow used in a parable to represent that not seen the eternal faith principle. The water as that seen has its foundation in the Old Testament.

It was required in purification ceremony as a new member desired to work as a Priest. That has not changed it remains ceremonial same purpose. There is nothing we can do outwardly that could prove we have the Spirit of Christ inwardly. It is not a tradition that begins in the new testament.

The unbelieving Jew (no faith) have always required as sign before they would believe. Therefore stumbling over the cross..

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. . Joh 3:25




We can only love Him... because he first loved us by giving us His hearing according to His faith that does work in a believer to both will and do His good pleasure as a imputed righteousness.

It’s something that happens when he accepts us chosen from the foundation of the world.. How the shadow is applied(splashed or dipped) does not determine the outcome.

When Aaron's Son desired to join the ministry they died because they wanted to add something to it as if it could make a change in a persons heart. Shadows point to the true as signs to observe not seek after.
Not meaning to sound rude, but you are talking about a lot of OT traditions and priestly practices... this is NOT what Jesus' baptism is about. It's fine, if you want to see spiritual comparisons, but nowhere in scripture did Jesus (or even the apostles) say that baptism is simply a shadow, or a sign, symbolizing a priest's ritual cleansing, yada yada....

Scripture even compares the waters of baptism to the fact that Noah and his family were saved through the cleansing of the waters of the flood.

Jesus told the disciples to go and teach, and baptize believers in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit...

The apostles taught baptism by immersion, and expected it to occur at the belief in, and the acceptance of Jesus...

All of Christianity practiced baptism as an essential part of salvation for over a thousand years, and then, suddenly, it becomes "not important" ?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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Again.... if it is an optional "sign", then why did they all teach it, and expect it as a part of salvation?

You could as easily say that participating in communion is done by man, and by the will of man, because it is a physical act. Why don't we simply meditate on Jesus and our relationship with him, instead of going to all the trouble of preparing wine and unleavened bread? Is that optional, as well? If it is only an "outward sign" of our relationship with Jesus, why bother?
Clearest picture is in Acts 8:35-40. Especially if thou "believest thou mayest:. Mayest not mustest. Sorry of the KJV English.

The apostles taught baptism as part of sanctification not salvation. The only baptism that saves is Holy Spirit baptism. Titus 3:5 John said there was a baptism that only Jesus could administer. John 1:33

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
Your words are philosophy and not scripture. They sound very churchy but deny what is clearly written.

Salvation is expressed in practical terms not the generalities you present. The Great Commission is practical and simple not based on metaphors and theory.
Water cannot save. Water cannot wash away sin. Only the blood of Christ can cleanse us from our sin.

Without the shedding of blood there is no remission for sin. Hebrews 9:22

For the cause of Christ
Roger