Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

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Dec 21, 2012
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#61
You don't understand what it means to be a Christian, a born again child of God and a member of the church of the body of Christ.
Seems to be a consistent answer when you cannot address scripture that opposes you.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#62
Seems to be a consistent answer when you cannot address scripture that opposes you.
There are no scripture that oppose me. I have explained the scripture you misinterpret numerous times.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#63
There are no scripture that oppose me. I have explained the scripture you misinterpret numerous times.
Numerous times? I reckon other readers can see that for themselves when they read this thread.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#64
Numerous times? I reckon other readers can see that for themselves when they read this thread.
Check other threads where you have brought this up.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#65
You are the one opposing yourself. By your reasoning, rejecting the TR as inspired, then no Bible version is inspired, because you cannot prove those other sources as inspired either by your standard.
And how am I opposing myself? That's just silly. You completely missed the connection to the post I quoted. Try tracing the thoughts back through the posts to get the context.

I didn't claim that any translation is inspired; quite the contrary, so your bold assertion falls flat on its face.


Scripture cannot go against scripture as no lie can be of the truth. The KJV passes that test in John 16:13 in keeping the truth in Romans 8:26-27 and the only reason you cry foul because you like Romans 8:26-27 in modern Bibles that support directly or indirectly that believers can pray in tongues even though John 16:13 in that same modern bible you are using testify to the contrary that opposes how you are taking Romans 8:26-27 to mean for praying in tongues.
None of this is relevant in any way to what I posted; I made no mention of tongues. That's your pet issue, not mine.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#66
And how am I opposing myself? That's just silly. You completely missed the connection to the post I quoted. Try tracing the thoughts back through the posts to get the context.

I didn't claim that any translation is inspired; quite the contrary, so your bold assertion falls flat on its face.
Then you can never tell any one that what you are saying the truth when you sow doubts in God's words.

None of this is relevant in any way to what I posted; I made no mention of tongues. That's your pet issue, not mine.
It goes to motivation for why you are opposing yourself and you still are.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#67
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#68
Then you can never tell any one that what you are saying the truth when you sow doubts in God's words.
What complete silliness. I shake my head. Go and look up "non sequitur" for somehow you have become fond of employing them.

It goes to motivation for why you are opposing yourself and you still are.
This also simply doesn't follow. It has as much value to the discussion as "I know you are but what am I?" You have now asserted twice that I am opposing myself, but you have not managed to provide anything to demonstrate it. Try creating a sound logical syllogism to support your point.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
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#69
Greetings Dai3234,

The LAST TRUMP, is when the end of time is. They're was no Zero in greek, so 1000= 1000* +, = millennia * ?
The "Last Trump" is not the end of time. No where in scripture is this inferred. The "Last trump" is found in 1 Cor.15:52, which is Paul's description of the gathering of the church, dead and living and has nothing to do with time ending.

After the church is gathered at the Last trumpet, the world will then go through a time of tribulation, which is the time of God's wrath which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Very shortly after the 7th bowl is poured out, the Lord will return to end the age and will establish his millennial kingdom and will rule from Jerusalem. After that thousand years will be the great white throne judgment and then the creation of a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. That is a summary of the order of end time events.
 
E

Ellsworth1943

Guest
#70
Greetings Dai3234,



The "Last Trump" is not the end of time. No where in scripture is this inferred. The "Last trump" is found in 1 Cor.15:52, which is Paul's description of the gathering of the church, dead and living and has nothing to do with time ending.

After the church is gathered at the Last trumpet, the world will then go through a time of tribulation, which is the time of God's wrath which will take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Very shortly after the 7th bowl is poured out, the Lord will return to end the age and will establish his millennial kingdom and will rule from Jerusalem. After that thousand years will be the great white throne judgment and then the creation of a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. That is a summary of the order of end time events.
I see you are still putting your own personal spin on Scripture.
Paul said last trump but last does not mean last according to Ahwatukee.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
#71
There are no scripture that oppose me. I have explained the scripture you misinterpret numerous times.
If there were no scripture that oppose you, you would be a perfect man and would not say: There are no scripture that oppose me. You would not need to defend yourself as you would no longer be part of the equation, "It's no longer I that lives...
Not picking on you haven't even read what you wrote. I'm actually discouraged of everyone thinking they know, when their speech gives them away. "If any man thinks he knows, he doesn't know as he should." If we think we know we stop learning. Thankfully we are not saved by understanding mysteries.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#72
2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[SUP]5 [/SUP]But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.[SUP]6 [/SUP]For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:[SUP]8 [/SUP]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
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Walk trough the valley
#73
"Only by pride comes contention"
In arguments no one wins, motivated by pride divides us. Have fallen into this as well and need to be patient with others; but don't think that I will read posts of those in arguments here to see who is right, especially the long one, we already know no one is righteous. I admit I don't know how the time of trouble of the end will happen, but it's in my lifetime.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#74
"Only by pride comes contention"
In arguments no one wins, motivated by pride divides us. Have fallen into this as well and need to be patient with others; but don't think that I will read posts of those in arguments here to see who is right, especially the long one, we already know no one is righteous. I admit I don't know how the time of trouble of the end will happen, but it's in my lifetime.
Can you make full proof of the ministry by short posts?

2 Timothy 4:1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;[SUP] 4 [/SUP]And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

When oppositions in discussions are raised without addressing the scripture in the OP, then it becomes contentions.

Titus 3:[SUP]9 [/SUP]But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.[SUP]10 [/SUP]A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

So you are right. Replying to those with unreasonable oppositions that does not address all the scriptural references in the OP is baiting me to join in the contention which I am to avoid.

Makes one wonder how any one can have a Bible Discussion here in this forum.

 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#75
shrume said:
There are no scripture that oppose me. I have explained the scripture you misinterpret numerous times.
If there were no scripture that oppose you, you would be a perfect man and would not say: There are no scripture that oppose me. You would not need to defend yourself as you would no longer be part of the equation, "It's no longer I that lives...
Not picking on you haven't even read what you wrote. I'm actually discouraged of everyone thinking they know, when their speech gives them away. "If any man thinks he knows, he doesn't know as he should." If we think we know we stop learning. Thankfully we are not saved by understanding mysteries.
You should have read what I wrote. I was in no way claiming to be a perfect man. I'm a sinner, as is everyone.

There are no scripture that oppose the idea that every Christian will be gathered to Christ when he returns to gather his body. Enow's belief that some Christians will be left behind at the rapture is not biblical. Every Christian is a member of the body of Christ, and no member of that body will be left behind.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
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#76
It is uncomfortable to see, I know.

Galatians 4:[SUP]16 [/SUP]Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Feel free to answer what Jesus is talking about in all those scriptural references for the concern given in the title of the OP.

Or how about stick to this one reference instead below?

He is warning us to pray for what reason in Luke 21:33-36 that is a snare for believers to find themselves in when He comes?

Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP] 34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP] 35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Hi Enow,

Firslty I want to say thankyou for your response.

I found it kind, considerate and non confrontational or judgemental.
I truly appreciate that and I would say that I hope all of us would follow your example.

I think for me as you probably guessed that there are so many views both for and against the rapture, pre/post trib and so on.
So for me when I decided to delve into all of it basically I lost my head up my backside and got very disheartened because I just couldn’t get it.

With regard to you OP with Matthew I do have to say that I don’t see the rapture in it.

To me this is referring to the ministry of Jesus when he walked on earth.
The elite, rich and powerful rejected the banquet of salvation that Jesus offered. They had no need of Jesus.

Yet the despised, the poor, the crippled, lame and the blind responsed to Jesus.
He went out to them and they accepted the banquet of Jesus.
And they realised they needed Jesus and accepted his offer of salvation.
To eat at the banquet table.

Isaiah 55:1-4
Chapter 55
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.

So I think for me If the rapture is in two phases then those who have accepted him as saviour will just be called up to be with him.

I also believe and it brings great comfort

Revelation 3:7-10
The Faithful Church
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
“These things says He who is holy, He who is true, ‘He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.



So as I said I don’t really know enough concerning the end times and I found myself being discouraged and confused by either side of the equation.

So this is where I am at, not sure biblical thoughts and an idealist thought a romantic thought as such.

I do not have an issue with rapture being in two phases.
In phase one all believers will be raptured.
As a result those left behind will see that believers have gone.
For the period afterward to final judgement those left behind will see that something has happened.
During this period there is a time of repentance and if they don't then they face the judgement seat of Jesus.

I think what I was trying to convey that for simple thinking people like me who don’t get it that if we don’t then don’t get worried or upset or confused about it.

For those who have a confirmed static view please discuss and not come against each other with angst.

Also trying to say just focus on Jesus every day, walk with him and talk with him.

Afterall all true believers will be with Jesus for all eternity.

And when I am with him I don’t think I’ll ask him “What was all this pre/past stuff, any chance we can play some golf.

I hope I have made some sense.

Thanks Enow for taking the time to respond and with intent and integrity that you did.

Your brother in Jesus.

Bill
 
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
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#77
Hi Enow,

Firslty I want to say thank you for your response.

I found it kind, considerate and non confrontational or judgemental.
I truly appreciate that and I would say that I hope all of us would follow your example.
Thank you.

I do not always do that, but I do rely on Him to help me to.

I think for me as you probably guessed that there are so many views both for and against the rapture, pre/post trib and so on.
So for me when I decided to delve into all of it basically I lost my head up my backside and got very disheartened because I just couldn’t get it.
I understand that. Scripture does say we prophesy in part and know in part; one day we will know it all. I cannot make any one understand or see the truth which is why I need Him to rest in Him to minister and cause the increase & me not to strive.

With regard to you OP with Matthew I do have to say that I don’t see the rapture in it.

To me this is referring to the ministry of Jesus when he walked on earth.
The elite, rich and powerful rejected the banquet of salvation that Jesus offered. They had no need of Jesus.

Yet the despised, the poor, the crippled, lame and the blind responsed to Jesus.
He went out to them and they accepted the banquet of Jesus.
And they realised they needed Jesus and accepted his offer of salvation.
To eat at the banquet table.

Isaiah 55:1-4
Chapter 55
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
4 Indeed I have given him as a witness to the people,
A leader and commander for the people.
I understand your presentation, as one other did earlier in citing it was about Israel being invited and then rejected for the gospel to go out to the Gentiles.

They both have some sound application, but there are some verses that do not apply.

#1. The invitation had been sent and thus received. It was at the time of the King's Supper that they were making excuses not to come which is why I did not believe it was about the gospel being rejected by Israel.

As per your presentation, not all the excuses had to deal with possessions or riches. One was about just having gotten married and was going on his honeymoon, but it is in that regard only is why I give you pause for reconsideration.

There were other references in Luke that was tying in with that parable of the King's Supper about the need for not getting snared by the cares of this life that we would prefer this life than leave to escape with the Bridegroom. Luke 21:33-36

So I think for me If the rapture is in two phases then those who have accepted him as saviour will just be called up to be with him.

I also believe and it brings great comfort

Revelation 3:7-10
The Faithful Church
7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
“These things says He who is holy, He who is true, ‘He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.



So as I said I don’t really know enough concerning the end times and I found myself being discouraged and confused by either side of the equation.

So this is where I am at, not sure biblical thoughts and an idealist thought a romantic thought as such.

I do not have an issue with rapture being in two phases.
In phase one all believers will be raptured.
As a result those left behind will see that believers have gone.
For the period afterward to final judgement those left behind will see that something has happened.
During this period there is a time of repentance and if they don't then they face the judgement seat of Jesus.

I think what I was trying to convey that for simple thinking people like me who don’t get it that if we don’t then don’t get worried or upset or confused about it.

For those who have a confirmed static view please discuss and not come against each other with angst.

Also trying to say just focus on Jesus every day, walk with him and talk with him.

Afterall all true believers will be with Jesus for all eternity.

And when I am with him I don’t think I’ll ask him “What was all this pre/past stuff, any chance we can play some golf.

I hope I have made some sense.

Thanks Enow for taking the time to respond and with intent and integrity that you did.

Your brother in Jesus.

Bill
I thank you for sharing your thoughts on this. I did raise a point for reconsideration in regards to your presentation, but I can accept that whether a believer gets left behind because of unrepentant iniquity or just unwilling to leave, in the end, they will be with Jesus Christ for all eternity.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Enow
 

stillness

Senior Member
Jan 28, 2013
1,257
211
63
69
Walk trough the valley
#78
You should have read what I wrote. I was in no way claiming to be a perfect man. I'm a sinner, as is everyone.

There are no scripture that oppose the idea that every Christian will be gathered to Christ when he returns to gather his body. Enow's belief that some Christians will be left behind at the rapture is not biblical. Every Christian is a member of the body of Christ, and no member of that body will be left behind.
Already mentioned that I don't claim to know how the end will happen. Neither would I settle for a view. It's more appropriate to admit we don't know than to fight over what we think we know. I tend to think that the Rapture is Christians having to die for what they believe, in a worldwide persecution of the church, during the time of trouble such as never was, that is coming upon us. Revelation 6:11 and 13:15 and John 16:2: In our western world view we have no trouble being taken out of trouble. It's written "If we suffer with Him we shall rule with Him." That would rule us out of God's government, if we don't suffer with Him, and either way we meet the Lord and our life in this world is over. China has no trouble accepting suffering with Christ and it appears this is where it will begin again, and hopefully will wake us up. I'm not trying to convince you of this view and don't need to defend it. Already understand why it's not popular. We will not all die, "Except those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved, but for the elect sake those days will be shortened." When the Lord returns there will still be believers left. Daniel 12 also speaks of the end, "There will be a time of trouble such as never was and shall never be again and at that time shall everyone be delivered that is found written in the book of life." More people have suffered and died for their faith in this last century than since the beginning of the church. The last beast government is worldwide and makes war against the church, Revelation 13:17. Farewell
 
Jun 6, 2015
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#79
Luke 14:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.[SUP] 16 [/SUP]Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:[SUP] 17 [/SUP]And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.[SUP] 18 [/SUP]And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.[SUP]21 [/SUP]So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.[SUP] 23 [/SUP]And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

If you don't think you would refuse the Bridegroom when He comes at the pre trib rapture for any of those reasons above, I would advise you to heed His warning because He said it will be a snare for those living at the time that He comes.

Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP] 34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP] 35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP]36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 17:[SUP]28 [/SUP]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[SUP] 29 [/SUP]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.[SUP] 30 [/SUP]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.[SUP] 31 [/SUP]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.[SUP] 32 [/SUP]Remember Lot's wife.[SUP]33 [/SUP]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

So some saints will love their lives and their loved ones that they will not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

So watch and pray always that the Lord will help you be far more willing to leave your life and your loved ones behind.
When the bride groom comes its all over, you have been deceived, there will be no rapture. God bless
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
113
#80
When the bride groom comes its all over, you have been deceived, there will be no rapture. God bless
I just love the way that you supported your claim with scripture. The Lord's promise to gather the church, stands!

Below is the promise:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

And below is the detailed way in which the church will be gathered:

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

And below are the major reasons why the church cannot go through God's coming wrath which follows the gathering of the church:

"
They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. "

"
Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."

In John 14:1-3, Jesus that he was going to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for us and that he was going to come again and receive us to himself and take us back to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us. Therefore, this promise must take place because the Lord said it.

In addition, our being gathered must take place prior when God's wrath begins, which is initiated at the opening of the 1st seal, therefore, the church must be caught up prior to the 1st seal being opened.

Also, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb during the time of God's wrath upon the earth. Then in Rev.19:14, the bride/church is shown to be following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing her fine linen.

If you are not believing in and looking forward to the Lord's promise to return and gather his church, then it is you who have been deceived. I hope that you will reconsider and believe in the Lord.