Grace alone or grace plus works?

[Issachar92]

I used to think your way. Hard to judge someone when you were there at one time.. I could have been nicer.. But thanks.

What caused you to change your mind?

How do you explain Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and the other passages like Hebrews 10:26 that make obedience a requirement?

I see no examples in the Bible where someone in open rebellion and willful vile sins who is saved or considered saved. David and other biblical examples of saved people went through gruesome repentance and were called just men. Even cornelius was just before he was even saved. His alms and prayers were accepted of God and thats why God sent Peter to him and got him saved by grace.

Would I like it to be otherwise? Sure. But I gotta play with the hands ive been dealt. If I could decide i would just be a universalist and get everyone saved. But it aint up to me!

 

[Studyman]

He did not ask that, Your twisting what he asked. He asked you to DISTINGUISH between believe and faith. Ie, what are the differences between the two. You are skirting the question.

I will let Jesus distinguish it.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These people believed in Jesus, you can't say they didn't. They taught in His Name, they gave Him the credit for all their wonderful works. They got people off drugs and crime all in the Name of Jesus.

So these people believed in Jesus.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They had belief, but not trust/Faith. And their "WORKS" of disobedience to God exposed this truth.("Work iniquity") Abraham showed not only that he believed in God, but his belief was backed up with honor and obedience which proved he not only believed, like the demons, but He also trusted enough to follow God's Instructions.

This is called Faith.

The mainstream preachers of Christ's time created their own instruction and transgressed God's instructions.

Abraham did not do that.

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time created images of God after the likeness of man in direct disobedience to God.

Abraham did not do that.

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time refused to submit unto the Righteousness of God, and they created their own righteousness, their own definition of Holy and Unholy, clean and unclean, their own high days and traditions.

Abraham did not do that.

Jesus rejected these self proclaimed "believers" because of their "Works" of disobedience.

Jesus rejected the mainstream preachers of His time for their "Works" of disobedience.

God accepted Abraham because of his "Works" of obedience.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So these truths answer the question.

If a man claims to believe in Jesus, but creates images of God in the likeness of man, or creates their own high days, or refuse to submit to the righteousness of the God of Abraham, or is a murderer, or a thief. Then they have not the faith of Abraham.

If they don't have the Faith of Abraham, then they are not heirs to the Promise.

So once again, a man's "Works" which he will be judged by, show both himself, and those around him, his Faith.

Therefore His Holy Word's "You shall know them by their fruits".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What caused you to change your mind?

How do you explain Galatians 5:19-21 and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and the other passages like Hebrews 10:26 that make obedience a requirement?

Gal 5 is talking about those who PRACTICE sin, John said a child of God can not practice sin, so a person who practices sin is not a child of God,. In fact, John said they never knew him.

1 cor 6 is talking about the unrighteousness, They are not saved, never have been saved, And if you read on, What did john say about the believers he spoke to? “And such WERE some of you, But you were washed, justified and sanctified. He said that was their old life, they are no longer those people

Heb 10 we need to be careful, If you think your sin is a mistake and was not willfully. You are in danger, We also have to remember not everyone any letter was written to was saved, They claimed to be part of the church, it does not mean they were saved, Anyone who sins willfully would expect to be judged. Especially if they were under law. And a person who willfully lived in sin (which we already established a child of God can not do) is not saved to begin with.

I see no examples in the Bible where someone in open rebellion and willful vile sins who is saved or considered saved. David and other biblical examples of saved people went through gruesome repentance and were called just men. Even cornelius was just before he was even saved. His alms and prayers were accepted of God and thats why God sent Peter to him and got him saved by grace.

Would I like it to be otherwise? Sure. But I gotta play with the hands ive been dealt. If I could decide i would just be a universalist and get everyone saved. But it aint up to me!

David was called a man after Gods heart before he commited those sins. A man after Gods heart. Gods chosen, Is saved, David did not lose salvation and have to regain it by repenting, He repented because he was a true man of God and understood God.. and loved God.

We all make mistakes, it does not make us non believers, But those who are TRULY gods will not just walk away and stay away, They will return, Sadly (and I have been there ) someone like Nathon, or a circumstance in life (like the prodigal soon, I had lost everything, and had no place to turn, I was ready to commit suicide when a good friend I lead to christ called me out of th blue and God used him to save my life. And bring me BACK to repentance)

It is not universalism, It is who has true faith, vs who has mere belief. As james said, I can CLAIM I have faith a million times, if I have NO WORK, my faith is dead (I never had it to begin with)

 

[BillG]

These are your words not mine.

I asked how can we have faith before we believe?

Can you answer this?

After you answer my question then I will endeavour to answer yours.
What's the difference to you between belief and faith when it comes to God.
Also while you are at it "What words were not yours that you obviously feel I have attributed to you?

 

[Studyman]

After you answer my question then I will endeavour to answer yours.
What's the difference to you between belief and faith when it comes to God.
Also while you are at it "What words were not yours that you obviously feel I have attributed to you?

"You are on a bit of a sticky wicket if you are saying obedience produces faith."


I never said that "obedience produces faith". I said obedience shows faith.

 

[BillG]

John 6:60 ¶ Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Hearing and believing the word of God produces faith.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes hearing and believing produces faith and not obedience. Obedience is the fruit of hearing and believing leading to faith bringing about obedience.

John 11:40
40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”


g4100. πιστεύω pisteuō; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
AV (248) - believe 239, commit unto 4, commit to (one's) trust 1, be committed unto 1, be put in trust with 1, be commit to one's trust 1, believer 1;



g4102. πίστις pistis; from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: — assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Romans 5:1
Peace with God Through Faith
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faith being g4102

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”



g4100

 

[BillG]

"You are on a bit of a sticky wicket if you are saying obedience produces faith."


I never said that "obedience produces faith". I said obedience shows faith.

I never accused you of that I asked you the question. If I was accusing you I would never have asked you the question.

What did you mean by the following then? Your post 825 in response to my thoughts that Abraham had faith that produced obedience.
You said in post 825

He believed in God and his obedience turned his belief into Faith.

So please explain what you meant by that.
If I have misunderstood then I will apologise as deserved.

I have never said obedience produces faith and have always said faith produces obedience.
Go back and read my post 805

 

[BillG]

Anyone fancy a game of cricket?

 

[gb9]

I would fancy people actually answering questions. the ones that lecture the most answer the least. curious.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will let Jesus distinguish it.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These people believed in Jesus, you can't say they didn't. They taught in His Name, they gave Him the credit for all their wonderful works. They got people off drugs and crime all in the Name of Jesus.

So these people believed in Jesus.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They had belief, but not trust/Faith. And their "WORKS" of disobedience to God exposed this truth.("Work iniquity") Abraham showed not only that he believed in God, but his belief was backed up with honor and obedience which proved he not only believed, like the demons, but He also trusted enough to follow God's Instructions.

This is called Faith.

The mainstream preachers of Christ's time created their own instruction and transgressed God's instructions.

Abraham did not do that.

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time created images of God after the likeness of man in direct disobedience to God.

Abraham did not do that.

The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time refused to submit unto the Righteousness of God, and they created their own righteousness, their own definition of Holy and Unholy, clean and unclean, their own high days and traditions.

Abraham did not do that.

Jesus rejected these self proclaimed "believers" because of their "Works" of disobedience.

Jesus rejected the mainstream preachers of His time for their "Works" of disobedience.

God accepted Abraham because of his "Works" of obedience.

Gen. 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So these truths answer the question.

If a man claims to believe in Jesus, but creates images of God in the likeness of man, or creates their own high days, or refuse to submit to the righteousness of the God of Abraham, or is a murderer, or a thief. Then they have not the faith of Abraham.

If they don't have the Faith of Abraham, then they are not heirs to the Promise.

So once again, a man's "Works" which he will be judged by, show both himself, and those around him, his Faith.

Therefore His Holy Word's "You shall know them by their fruits".

You can not just give as direct answer can you? Do you like to go on these long drawn out posts which go all over the place so you can hide what your really trying to say?

in response to what I can determine from your post.

1. The people said depart for I did not know you. Because they did not have faith. They had plenty of works. They practiced unrighteousness BECAISE they were not saved.

2. Abraham did not have to PROVE anything (you love this word don;t you?) Abraham was declaired righteous because of his faith before he did any work. He did the work BECAUSE he had true faith, If he did not have faith, He would never have worked.

3. Jesus rejected them because they did not believe He recieved Abraham (and others) because they had faith (He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY. The teachers of the law were condemned because they had no faith in God, their faith was in the law.)

4. Gen 15, And abraham BELIEVED God and God accounted (imputed) to him righteousness. Adam was not made righteous because he had great works, he was made righteous because of his faith.

5. God does not need me to prove if my faith is real or not. You need to stop humanising God,

if this is your answer. I can not agree, your focused to much on obedience, and not on real living faith.

 

[BillG]

If a man claims to believe in Jesus, but creates images of God in the likeness of man, or creates their own high days, or refuse to submit to the righteousness of the God of Abraham, or is a murderer, or a thief. Then they have not the faith of Abraham.

If they don't have the Faith of Abraham, then they are not heirs to the Promise.

Hey don't stop there.

What about liars?

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Genesis 12:10-13
Abram in Egypt
10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to dwell there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, “Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance. 12 Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, “This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you.”


Genesis 12:17-20


17 But the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, “She is my sister’? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way.” 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had.

What about those who lack a bit of faith.

Read the account of Abraham and Hagar.
Hagar the Egyptian maid servant of Sarah.

So Abraham did that knowing it was wrong.

Genesis 17:19


19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

It's seems that Abraham is not as perfect as you think he is.



Yet God

Romans 4:2-8
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Believes.
g4100. πιστεύω pisteuō; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

 

[Studyman]

=eternally-gratefull;3376140]

You can not just give as direct answer can you? Do you like to go on these long drawn out posts which go all over the place so you can hide what your really trying to say?

I just want to make sure it is God's Word driving my answers, and not some religious franchise tradition I choose to follow.

in response to what I can determine from your post.

1. The people said depart for I did not know you. Because they did not have faith. They had plenty of works. They practiced unrighteousness BECAISE they were not saved.

Yes, they had works, but as Jesus exposed, they had no obedience, just like the mainstream preachers of His time.

2. Abraham did not have to PROVE anything (you love this word don;t you?) Abraham was declaired righteous because of his faith before he did any work. He did the work BECAUSE he had true faith, If he did not have faith, He would never have worked.

Yes, he obeyed God "BECAUSE" he had faith in Him. And God Blessed him "BECAUSE" he had this Faith. And Yes, if he only served God with his lips and not his heart, then he wouldn't have obeyed, and wouldn't have received the promise.

3. Jesus rejected them because they did not believe He recieved Abraham (and others) because they had faith (He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY. The teachers of the law were condemned because they had no faith in God, their faith was in the law.)

But Jesus rejected those whose self proclaimed "belief" was not followed by honor, respect and obedience. This is why EVERY example of Faith in the Bible are those who believe AND obeyed. From Abel to Zacharias to the Saints in Revelation. Belief, followed by obedience = Faith.

The mainstream preachers of Christ's time did not have "Faith in God's Word"(Law). I know you have been taught this from childhood as have we all. But it isn't true if the Bible is your source.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time had created their own "law", they created images of God in the likeness of men. They created their own Righteousness and refused to submit to the Righteousness of God. They had Faith in their own Law, their own god they created, their own righteousness.

I know this is hard to accept. But I don't want you burdened with the same yoke of deception and death that the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time brought to the people.

Your preaching that they had Faith in God's Word is just wrong EG.

4. Gen 15, And abraham BELIEVED God and God accounted (imputed) to him righteousness. Adam was not made righteous because he had great works, he was made righteous because of his faith.

Abraham did more than just "Believe". And his works were not creating his own doctrines and traditions, high days or images of God as did the mainstream preachers of Christ's time. He denied himself, and followed God as we are all instructed to do. This was called the "Faith of Abraham".

5. God does not need me to prove if my faith is real or not. You need to stop humanising God,

True, you don't need to prove to God your heart, He already knows.


Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.



2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

You need to stop humanising God,

Creating images of God after the likeness on some long haired men's hair shampoo model is humanizing God. Rejecting His instructions and creating your own and believing God is OK with such behavior is humanizing God. Trusting God's Word over man's is called "Faith", and we are instructed to have it..

if this is your answer. I can not agree, your focused to much on obedience, and not on real living faith

.

Yes EG, we will disagree, and I do believe we should focus on God's Word more than the preaching of religions God warned about so many times. If the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time had obeyed like Abraham instead of creating their own laws, they would have been blessed as Abraham was.

 

[DJ2]

I gave a thorough explanation of what the gospel IS and was careful to make a distinction between the content of the gospel of the kingdom to Israel prior to the cross and the gospel of grace, taught by the apostle Paul for this dispensation in post #97 below.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/161028-what-new-covenant-5.html#post3375635

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

To "believe" the gospel, as taught by the apostle Paul, is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not obey the 10 commandments or keep the sabbath day as the means of your salvation and the gospel is also not the entire word of God. Mormons have "added" the book of Mormon to the Bible and call it the "fullness" of the gospel, but such people are all teaching a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

What is the NEW covenant

to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

This statement is nothing more than your opinion based on the trust only regeneration theology. To accept this theology is to ignore the flow and form of the entire Bible. The labeling of obviously general statements as definitive is central to its acceptance. Your adding of "All-sufficient" to your understanding of 1st Cor. 15:1-4 & Romans 1:16 is a classic example of this mindset.

There is nothing in their wording to assume these verses are defintive. On the contrary, the lack of any words such as alone, only or solely is damning evidence of its general nature. The absence of even the level or nature of belief is more than enough to label them as simply general statements of the essence of Christianity. Any high school English composition student can easily see this.

In other words, your reliance on general statements to defend a "all-sufficient" faith alone theology is far from convincing.

 

[Studyman]

Hey don't stop there.

What about liars?

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”


Genesis 12:10-13
Abram in Egypt
10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to dwell there, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 And it came to pass, when he was close to entering Egypt, that he said to Sarai his wife, “Indeed I know that you are a woman of beautiful countenance. 12 Therefore it will happen, when the Egyptians see you, that they will say, “This is his wife’; and they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Please say you are my sister, that it may be well with me for your sake, and that I may live because of you.”


Genesis 12:17-20


17 But the Lord plagued Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife. 18 And Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, “She is my sister’? I might have taken her as my wife. Now therefore, here is your wife; take her and go your way.” 20 So Pharaoh commanded his men concerning him; and they sent him away, with his wife and all that he had.

What about those who lack a bit of faith.

Read the account of Abraham and Hagar.
Hagar the Egyptian maid servant of Sarah.

So Abraham did that knowing it was wrong.

Genesis 17:19


19 Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.

It's seems that Abraham is not as perfect as you think he is.



Yet God

Romans 4:2-8
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Believes.
g4100. πιστεύω pisteuō; from 4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ): — believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(Even Abrahams)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

You can compare Abraham with religions that create their own images of God, create their own high days and "Feasts" while rejecting those instructions of God that don't fit their man made traditions if you want.

But if God says Abraham was "blessed" because he obey God's Commandments, then that is the judgment I will use.

You continue to ignore the Biblical fact that Abraham was considered righteous without the cleansing rituals of the Levitical Priesthood which the Jews were preaching to everybody in Paul's time. He is explaining how these "Works of the Law" for justification and remission of sins were not even around in Abraham's time. The Jews taught is was not possible to be "Saved" without these ceremonial "works".

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham's sins were not forgiven by the "works of the Law", but by Faith in God. But that Faith wasn't just serving God with his lips. When we study the account, God told him to do something and he did it. Had he acted like the mainstream preachers of Christ's time and rejected God's instruction and created his own, then he would have been another Cain, and would not have received the blessing.

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

So if it was the Levites who took Abraham's goat and performed the ritual "works of the Law" described in the Levitical Priesthood for forgiveness, then it was not a gift, Abraham paid for his own sin's with his own goat.

But Levi wasn't even born yet, so Abraham was justified "apart from the Law" of justification.

You don't understand this because almost all of your knowledge is filtered through the Mainstream preachers of today, just like the Jews only knew what the mainstream preachers of Paul's time taught them.

And Jesus said they didn't teach His Word, but a doctrine created by man. I believe it is the same with the mainstream preachers of today.

 

[BillG]

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.(Even Abrahams)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

You can compare Abraham with religions that create their own images of God, create their own high days and "Feasts" while rejecting those instructions of God that don't fit their man made traditions if you want.

But if God says Abraham was "blessed" because he obey God's Commandments, then that is the judgment I will use.

You continue to ignore the Biblical fact that Abraham was considered righteous without the cleansing rituals of the Levitical Priesthood which the Jews were preaching to everybody in Paul's time. He is explaining how these "Works of the Law" for justification and remission of sins were not even around in Abraham's time. The Jews taught is was not possible to be "Saved" without these ceremonial "works".

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Abraham's sins were not forgiven by the "works of the Law", but by Faith in God. But that Faith wasn't just serving God with his lips. When we study the account, God told him to do something and he did it. Had he acted like the mainstream preachers of Christ's time and rejected God's instruction and created his own, then he would have been another Cain, and would not have received the blessing.



So if it was the Levites who took Abraham's goat and performed the ritual "works of the Law" described in the Levitical Priesthood for forgiveness, then it was not a gift, Abraham paid for his own sin's with his own goat.

But Levi wasn't even born yet, so Abraham was justified "apart from the Law" of justification.

You don't understand this because almost all of your knowledge is filtered through the Mainstream preachers of today, just like the Jews only knew what the mainstream preachers of Paul's time taught them.

And Jesus said they didn't teach His Word, but a doctrine created by man. I believe it is the same with the mainstream preachers of today.

Alas neither do you.
I just quoted the Bible.

Abraham had faith which led to obedience.
He got it wrong.
Yet he was considered righteous.
I Never said he was forgiven by his works by the works of the law.
His sins were forgiven on account of faith. Justified as you say.

I have not compared Abraham with other religions in any way shape or form. Please post where I have said that.

With regards to the Levite I can't recall even mentioning them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[/B]I just want to make sure it is God's Word driving my answers, and not some religious franchise tradition I choose to follow.





Yes, they had works, but as Jesus exposed, they had no obedience, just like the mainstream preachers of His time.

No one is perfect. So by your own response, you judged yourself.

They practiced righteousness. John said a child of God can not practice righteousness. Because they are not born of God.

Yes, he obeyed God "BECAUSE" he had faith in Him. And God Blessed him "BECAUSE" he had this Faith. And Yes, if he only served God with his lips and not his heart, then he wouldn't have obeyed, and wouldn't have received the promise.

He was blessed BEFORE he was obedient, He was blessed BECAUSE he had faith. His obedience WAS A RESULT OF HIS FAITH.
You need to stop focusing on obedience and focus on faith, Obedience will take care of itself if faiht is real.

But Jesus rejected those whose self proclaimed "belief" was not followed by honor, respect and obedience. This is why EVERY example of Faith in the Bible are those who believe AND obeyed. From Abel to Zacharias to the Saints in Revelation. Belief, followed by obedience = Faith.

He rejected them because they did not believe PERIOD.

If you have no faiht in someone, your not going to obey them, If you have faith inb someone, Your going to do what they ask.

You focus on performance. And not faith. Good luck with that.

The mainstream preachers of Christ's time did not have "Faith in God's Word"(Law). I know you have been taught this from childhood as have we all. But it isn't true if the Bible is your source.

The Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time had created their own "law", they created images of God in the likeness of men. They created their own Righteousness and refused to submit to the Righteousness of God. They had Faith in their own Law, their own god they created, their own righteousness.

I know this is hard to accept. But I don't want you burdened with the same yoke of deception and death that the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time brought to the people.

Your preaching that they had Faith in God's Word is just wrong EG.

I told you once, I am not discussing your view of these men, And I suggest you stop with false accusation. I never stated they had faith in Gods world. If they had faith in Gods word they would have recieved christ,

Abraham did more than just "Believe". And his works were not creating his own doctrines and traditions, high days or images of God as did the mainstream preachers of Christ's time. He denied himself, and followed God as we are all instructed to do. This was called the "Faith of Abraham".

abraham had faith before he did works, He trusted God when he made promises, and because of his faith, God declaired him righteous.
He worked BECAUSE he had faith in God. Not to prove his faith.

True, you don't need to prove to God your heart, He already knows.

Yep. So no works are required Because God knows.

However, works will follow (for those who have truth faith) because faith works.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.



2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.



Creating images of God after the likeness on some long haired men's hair shampoo model is humanizing God. Rejecting His instructions and creating your own and believing God is OK with such behavior is humanizing God. Trusting God's Word over man's is called "Faith", and we are instructed to have it..

Humanising God is giving god attributes humans have, Creating an image of God is making an idol not humanising. Give me a break.

Yes EG, we will disagree, and I do believe we should focus on God's Word more than the preaching of religions God warned about so many times. If the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time had obeyed like Abraham instead of creating their own laws, they would have been blessed as Abraham was.

Yep. We will have to agree, If the men and woman of Isreal in Jesus day HAD FAITH in Christ like abraham had in God. They would have not rejected him, and they would have done mighty works.

Again, Your to focused on obedience, your just as bad as the religious jews who focus on works, and reject grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Alas neither do you.
I just quoted the Bible.

Abraham had faith which led to obedience.
He got it wrong.
Yet he was considered righteous.
I Never said he was forgiven by his works by the works of the law.
His sins were forgiven on account of faith. Justified as you say.

I have not compared Abraham with other religions in any way shape or form. Please post where I have said that.

With regards to the Levite I can't recall even mentioning them.

more deflection. It is sad they can not see it.. But everyone else does

 

[stonesoffire]

Anyone fancy a game of cricket?

I like to tease the geckos, can't find any crickets.

 

[LittleGirl]

If we are judged by our works, we are doomed for eternity. Because our works are as filthy rags. And not one work will make up for 1 sin.

Yes, We will be judged for our works, and recieve reward.. But we are not talking about rewards, we are talking about ho0w one is saved.

So can you tell me, Since I do not believe we WORK to MAINTAIN salvation, but I believe we WORK BECAUSE of salvation. Am I still fighting works?

Interesting question.
First of all, I don't like the word "work" because it sounds like something physically and emotionally difficult to do.
Jesus said that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. So it seems to me that if God asks us to do something, He will also give us the strength to do it.

If you're doing good deeds, those Jesus would have you do as a born-again believer, then the reason why you're doing them seems to be unimportant to me.

I do have difficulty with some verses which Jesus said.
For instance Mathew 7:23
Jesus tells some who practiced in His name to depart from Him. He said because they practiced lawlessness --- He didn't say because they didn't believe.

In other words, if we say Jesus is our Lord, we do have to really follow Him and obey Him.

Do YOU think that if I'm doing good deeds because I think it's necessary to continue in my salvation that I'm doing something wrong??

 

[LittleGirl]

Because they were the inevitable result of Him saving us. They show we were genuinely saved. They do NOT save us or even contribute towards our salvation.

OK.
But if our good deeds show that we are saved, then it must surely mean that these deeds are necessary.
A good tree will produce good fruit.
So if we're a good tree, we will produce good fruit.

Didn't Jesus say that every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire?
Mathew 7:19

I feel that God askes us to bear good fruit and our answer has to be yes.
Is this contributing to our salvation?
What if I continually say no? Or do you think that's not possible?