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Z
So, let me get this straight:
You believe in a tri-unity, but you just don't agree with the terminology Trinitarians use for each member of the Godhead? F-S-HS
God Bless[/quote]
No. Tri-Unity and Trinity are discrete, not distinct. The problem with person is the conceptualization, not the word itself. Man was originally made in God's image and likeness. Are you three persons of one individual?
[/quote]
So, we can't say that they are three different personalities, yet the same being?
You believe in a tri-unity, but you just don't agree with the terminology Trinitarians use for each member of the Godhead? F-S-HS
God Bless[/quote]
No. Tri-Unity and Trinity are discrete, not distinct. The problem with person is the conceptualization, not the word itself. Man was originally made in God's image and likeness. Are you three persons of one individual?
[/quote]So, we can't say that they are three different personalities, yet the same being?
No, but I have to minister to many Protestants who do hold to Sola Scriptura. That may kinda bleed over a bit. It's more the conceptualization than the word itself. I have to deal with the word itself with Protestants. Sorry for that fuzziness.
See above. Word and/or concept. Protestants demand Sola Scriptura, so I concentrate on turning the word back to them. It's the concept represented BY the word that is the problem.
No. Hupostasis is only used of God once in all of Scripture (Hebrews 1:3). It is more appropriately rendered substance, as it is in Hebrews 12:1... "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for..."
In Hebrews 1:3, it should be "...the express image of his substance...", not person. I can get into a treatise on hupostasis and ousia, but it would be lots of blah-blah to most.
No. The Son IS the express image of God's substance. That substance is the Rhema within Logos that proceeded forth and came from God (John 8:42). Notice the Word (Son) proceeded forth and came from GOD (not the Father), sent by the Father. Notice the HS proceedeth from the Father, sent by the Father and the Son.
Proceeded*forth and proceedeth are different. Came/came and from/from and sent/sent are ALL different. Evidently, nobody broke down their own language back in the day to find God's inspired truth in the Word.
A combo. Everything I've affirmed and 95+% came from orthodox teachers we share. The last bit of clarification came through Word and prayer while fasting nigh unto death for months at a time for 13 years. All I want is the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. Not tradition. Not theology. Not creeds. Not to argue to be right. Not to "win" a debate. I've laid down my life for this truth. The machaira (sword) of the High Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek was not allowed to cut deep enough by the Councilors and ECFs. A word (person-s) replaced THE Word and hasn't revealed the complete truth.
An early now-rescinded guideline for attribute assertion caused the Early Fathers to overlook the deepest truth, though we got all the rest from Nicea. That depth changes the entire conceptualization of God and disolves all the various models in reconciliation.
Jesus will reconcile ALL things unto Himself, including these incomplete God-models.
I'm not removing the old landmarks; I affirm them. I'm uncovering the ONE they missed that forked the path enough to alter the destination.
S
I believe that belief is an ancient error called Sabellianism. If you want to know why it is an error, seek out and ask an Eastern Orthodox priest. And also google on it the internet. Sabellius was excommunicated from the Church in 220 AD by pope Calixtus of Rome. When Rome was still Orthodox. Take care. God is three persons, not just one person. God is one God. In three.
According to Greek language construction, no. Godhead (Theotes G2320) is the personality (singular) of God. God only has one personality. One substance. Jesus is the express image of his substance. The Rhema within Logos is that substance.
Ask yourself this...
Who spoke? Whose Word was spoken? Did God speak the Word? Or did the Word speak Itself?
Jesus proceeded*forth and came from God (NOT the Father), sent by the Father; He didn't come of Himself. (John 8:42)
What does it mean that He proceeded*forth and came FROM GOD? (Again, NOT the Father.). That's what the word says, yes?
Ask yourself this...
Who spoke? Whose Word was spoken? Did God speak the Word? Or did the Word speak Itself?
Jesus proceeded*forth and came from God (NOT the Father), sent by the Father; He didn't come of Himself. (John 8:42)
What does it mean that He proceeded*forth and came FROM GOD? (Again, NOT the Father.). That's what the word says, yes?
D
It seems to me that this discussion is rather pointless, since it does not alter the basic tenet of the Christian faith which is "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" Whether Jesus was God on earth or God's representative on earth, His mission was the same. And it is certain from the Gospels that he had the power of God.
Matthew 9, verses 4 through 8, tells the story of Jesus telling a paralyzed man that his sins were forgiven, and the Pharisees (mentally) accused him of blasphemy. "Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “'Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.' So he said to the paralyzed man, 'Get up, take your mat and go home.' Then the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man. (emphasis added)
In Matthew 10:1, "Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
Finally, in John 14:9-11, after Philip asked Him to "show us the Father", "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."
So it seems to me that whether or not Jesus and God were one and the same, the premise remains the same. In order to gain salvation, we must accept God's offer by recognizing Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
Matthew 9, verses 4 through 8, tells the story of Jesus telling a paralyzed man that his sins were forgiven, and the Pharisees (mentally) accused him of blasphemy. "Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “'Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.' So he said to the paralyzed man, 'Get up, take your mat and go home.' Then the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man. (emphasis added)
In Matthew 10:1, "Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness."
Finally, in John 14:9-11, after Philip asked Him to "show us the Father", "Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."
So it seems to me that whether or not Jesus and God were one and the same, the premise remains the same. In order to gain salvation, we must accept God's offer by recognizing Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
S
No. Tri-Unity and Trinity are discrete, not distinct. The problem with person is the conceptualization, not the word itself. Man was originally made in God's image and likeness. Are you three persons of one individual? [/quote]
So, we can't say that they are three different personalities, yet the same being?[/quote]
There's the problem you have with the term person. You are confusing man as a person with God as three persons. Man's personality is not analogous to God's persons. Man is in the image and likeness of God. He is an immortal spirit, like God is The Immortal Spirit. Man's immortality depends upon the Spirit of God. But this is the problem Augustine of Hippo had: he tried to dissect the human person(ality), and find an analogy in the human person, a psychological model for God as the three persons, the Holy Trinity. This is an error. There is no analogy between God as a Trinity and man as an individual person. God is not an individual. But man is only an individual person. You should not, if you are doing this, trying to understand God in terms of an analogy to the image and likeness of God within man. God is totally transcendent, but He is also immanent, so not so absolutely totally transcendent that He cannot dwell with (in) man. He is virtually totally transcendent, but He dwells with man as "God with us" because of Christ in His Incarnation. Take care! I guess you object to the term persons within God because you are looking to closely at the human person and then taking that as an analogy to (the nature of God). The nature (essence) of God is incomprehensible, and there is no analogy to the image and likeness of God in man (the nature of man) to the nature of God. Take care!
[/quote]So, we can't say that they are three different personalities, yet the same being?[/quote]
There's the problem you have with the term person. You are confusing man as a person with God as three persons. Man's personality is not analogous to God's persons. Man is in the image and likeness of God. He is an immortal spirit, like God is The Immortal Spirit. Man's immortality depends upon the Spirit of God. But this is the problem Augustine of Hippo had: he tried to dissect the human person(ality), and find an analogy in the human person, a psychological model for God as the three persons, the Holy Trinity. This is an error. There is no analogy between God as a Trinity and man as an individual person. God is not an individual. But man is only an individual person. You should not, if you are doing this, trying to understand God in terms of an analogy to the image and likeness of God within man. God is totally transcendent, but He is also immanent, so not so absolutely totally transcendent that He cannot dwell with (in) man. He is virtually totally transcendent, but He dwells with man as "God with us" because of Christ in His Incarnation. Take care! I guess you object to the term persons within God because you are looking to closely at the human person and then taking that as an analogy to (the nature of God). The nature (essence) of God is incomprehensible, and there is no analogy to the image and likeness of God in man (the nature of man) to the nature of God. Take care!
No. Tri-Unity and Trinity are discrete, not distinct. The problem with person is the conceptualization, not the word itself. Man was originally made in God's image and likeness. Are you three persons of one individual?
There's the problem you have with the term person. You are confusing man as a person with God as three persons. Man's personality is not analogous to God's persons. Man is in the image and likeness of God. He is an immortal spirit, like God is The Immortal Spirit. Man's immortality depends upon the Spirit of God. But this is the problem Augustine of Hippo had: he tried to dissect the human person(ality), and find an analogy in the human person, a psychological model for God as the three persons, the Holy Trinity. This is an error. There is no analogy between God as a Trinity and man as an individual person. God is not an individual. But man is only an individual person. You should not, if you are doing this, trying to understand God in terms of an analogy to the image and likeness of God within man. God is totally transcendent, but He is also immanent, so not so absolutely totally transcendent that He cannot dwell with (in) man. He is virtually totally transcendent, but He dwells with man as "God with us" because of Christ in His Incarnation. Take care! I guess you object to the term persons within God because you are looking to closely at the human person and then taking that as an analogy to (the nature of God). The nature (essence) of God is incomprehensible, and there is no analogy to the image and likeness of God in man (the nature of man) to the nature of God. Take care![/QUOTE]
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.
S
There's the problem you have with the term person. You are confusing man as a person with God as three persons. Man's personality is not analogous to God's persons. Man is in the image and likeness of God. He is an immortal spirit, like God is The Immortal Spirit. Man's immortality depends upon the Spirit of God. But this is the problem Augustine of Hippo had: he tried to dissect the human person(ality), and find an analogy in the human person, a psychological model for God as the three persons, the Holy Trinity. This is an error. There is no analogy between God as a Trinity and man as an individual person. God is not an individual. But man is only an individual person. You should not, if you are doing this, trying to understand God in terms of an analogy to the image and likeness of God within man. God is totally transcendent, but He is also immanent, so not so absolutely totally transcendent that He cannot dwell with (in) man. He is virtually totally transcendent, but He dwells with man as "God with us" because of Christ in His Incarnation. Take care! I guess you object to the term persons within God because you are looking to closely at the human person and then taking that as an analogy to (the nature of God). The nature (essence) of God is incomprehensible, and there is no analogy to the image and likeness of God in man (the nature of man) to the nature of God. Take care![/quote]
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I think you should avoid the personal language. I don't talk about you personally at any time, so why do you keep up bringing up the differences, if there are any, between you and me. I am attempting to find common ground with you. As for orthodoxy, my understanding at this point really is about orthodoxy, not Orthodoxy. I really have little experience and personal knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have only been in Church services a few times. That is worth more than most of the reading I do. It really feels more true and more real like the presence of God the Holy Spirit, than in the dry pages of books. Even Orthodox books cannot substitute for the Divine Liturgy itself. The teaching is best by how the Church worships and prays and chants the Scriptures and prayers and hymns of the Church. I would suggest you may not like what I say sometimes, but unless you have ever been to a Orthodox Church, you don't know what you are missing. The more I am away from the Church, the more I miss the beauty of God's house. It is like heaven on earth. The place smells of true prayer. And I still need the sacraments. I have only progressed to confession. I have rid myself of the things I needed to say and confess about my sins. I am very unworthy of anything like Orthodoxy. So many in the Orthodox Church have lived such exemplary lives. In any case, I am sure I don't want to over idealize Orthodoxy. From experience and just common sense, just joining a church doesn't automatically remove all sin(s). It takes a constant prayer life struggle, and for more progress, better fasting. I have some difficulty actually fasting like I should. In any case I am sure God will bless you as you are a truth loving person and you will find peace with God. That you have already. When we find peace with God, we find more of the peace of God each new day. We are supposed to progress in grace and knowledge of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ. It will take a whole life before we are ready to meet God. But we should be more all the more ready with each passing day. We should be forsaking all known sin each moment. We should learn from our mistakes. I hope I have learned what not to do. By now. I have lived a half century. Still, what matters now from now on is not what I don't do, but what I do do.
I need to be relieved from sins of omission. There is more I must do to fulfill God's plan of salvation in my life.
It will take much more than chatting about theology on this site. I am sure what matters in your life, and what matters in mine, is finding local Christians we can be near in a church. As long as it takes us to find a local congregation where we can feel at home and at peace with how they worship God.
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I think you should avoid the personal language. I don't talk about you personally at any time, so why do you keep up bringing up the differences, if there are any, between you and me. I am attempting to find common ground with you. As for orthodoxy, my understanding at this point really is about orthodoxy, not Orthodoxy. I really have little experience and personal knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have only been in Church services a few times. That is worth more than most of the reading I do. It really feels more true and more real like the presence of God the Holy Spirit, than in the dry pages of books. Even Orthodox books cannot substitute for the Divine Liturgy itself. The teaching is best by how the Church worships and prays and chants the Scriptures and prayers and hymns of the Church. I would suggest you may not like what I say sometimes, but unless you have ever been to a Orthodox Church, you don't know what you are missing. The more I am away from the Church, the more I miss the beauty of God's house. It is like heaven on earth. The place smells of true prayer. And I still need the sacraments. I have only progressed to confession. I have rid myself of the things I needed to say and confess about my sins. I am very unworthy of anything like Orthodoxy. So many in the Orthodox Church have lived such exemplary lives. In any case, I am sure I don't want to over idealize Orthodoxy. From experience and just common sense, just joining a church doesn't automatically remove all sin(s). It takes a constant prayer life struggle, and for more progress, better fasting. I have some difficulty actually fasting like I should. In any case I am sure God will bless you as you are a truth loving person and you will find peace with God. That you have already. When we find peace with God, we find more of the peace of God each new day. We are supposed to progress in grace and knowledge of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ. It will take a whole life before we are ready to meet God. But we should be more all the more ready with each passing day. We should be forsaking all known sin each moment. We should learn from our mistakes. I hope I have learned what not to do. By now. I have lived a half century. Still, what matters now from now on is not what I don't do, but what I do do.
I need to be relieved from sins of omission. There is more I must do to fulfill God's plan of salvation in my life.
It will take much more than chatting about theology on this site. I am sure what matters in your life, and what matters in mine, is finding local Christians we can be near in a church. As long as it takes us to find a local congregation where we can feel at home and at peace with how they worship God.
S
There's the problem you have with the term person. You are confusing man as a person with God as three persons. Man's personality is not analogous to God's persons. Man is in the image and likeness of God. He is an immortal spirit, like God is The Immortal Spirit. Man's immortality depends upon the Spirit of God. But this is the problem Augustine of Hippo had: he tried to dissect the human person(ality), and find an analogy in the human person, a psychological model for God as the three persons, the Holy Trinity. This is an error. There is no analogy between God as a Trinity and man as an individual person. God is not an individual. But man is only an individual person. You should not, if you are doing this, trying to understand God in terms of an analogy to the image and likeness of God within man. God is totally transcendent, but He is also immanent, so not so absolutely totally transcendent that He cannot dwell with (in) man. He is virtually totally transcendent, but He dwells with man as "God with us" because of Christ in His Incarnation. Take care! I guess you object to the term persons within God because you are looking to closely at the human person and then taking that as an analogy to (the nature of God). The nature (essence) of God is incomprehensible, and there is no analogy to the image and likeness of God in man (the nature of man) to the nature of God. Take care![/quote]
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I do not know "everything". If my tone or attitude is wrong, I apologize. I don't understand what you know about persons. Maybe you know something that I can't comprehend. I don't understand why you object to those words. Do you think they are outright wrong, or do you just prefer not to use them because they are not in the Bible? Or, are you seeking Pre-Nicene justification for the terms Trinity and persons, because you perhaps believe it must be there before you will accept it? I don't know what you are driving at? Do you prefer to learn from the ANF Ante-Nicene Fathers? By the way, I don't know anything about God's nature and constitution. How can any sinner understand the holiness of God. Anytime any of us would look at God, we all would know we're not Him. We only know we need God's mercy and the intercession of Jesus Christ the Son to bring us into peace with God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God bless you.
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I do not know "everything". If my tone or attitude is wrong, I apologize. I don't understand what you know about persons. Maybe you know something that I can't comprehend. I don't understand why you object to those words. Do you think they are outright wrong, or do you just prefer not to use them because they are not in the Bible? Or, are you seeking Pre-Nicene justification for the terms Trinity and persons, because you perhaps believe it must be there before you will accept it? I don't know what you are driving at? Do you prefer to learn from the ANF Ante-Nicene Fathers? By the way, I don't know anything about God's nature and constitution. How can any sinner understand the holiness of God. Anytime any of us would look at God, we all would know we're not Him. We only know we need God's mercy and the intercession of Jesus Christ the Son to bring us into peace with God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God bless you.
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I think you should avoid the personal language. I don't talk about you personally at any time, so why do you keep up bringing up the differences, if there are any, between you and me. I am attempting to find common ground with you. As for orthodoxy, my understanding at this point really is about orthodoxy, not Orthodoxy. I really have little experience and personal knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have only been in Church services a few times. That is worth more than most of the reading I do. It really feels more true and more real like the presence of God the Holy Spirit, than in the dry pages of books. Even Orthodox books cannot substitute for the Divine Liturgy itself. The teaching is best by how the Church worships and prays and chants the Scriptures and prayers and hymns of the Church. I would suggest you may not like what I say sometimes, but unless you have ever been to a Orthodox Church, you don't know what you are missing. The more I am away from the Church, the more I miss the beauty of God's house. It is like heaven on earth. The place smells of true prayer. And I still need the sacraments. I have only progressed to confession. I have rid myself of the things I needed to say and confess about my sins. I am very unworthy of anything like Orthodoxy. So many in the Orthodox Church have lived such exemplary lives. In any case, I am sure I don't want to over idealize Orthodoxy. From experience and just common sense, just joining a church doesn't automatically remove all sin(s). It takes a constant prayer life struggle, and for more progress, better fasting. I have some difficulty actually fasting like I should. In any case I am sure God will bless you as you are a truth loving person and you will find peace with God. That you have already. When we find peace with God, we find more of the peace of God each new day. We are supposed to progress in grace and knowledge of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ. It will take a whole life before we are ready to meet God. But we should be more all the more ready with each passing day. We should be forsaking all known sin each moment. We should learn from our mistakes. I hope I have learned what not to do. By now. I have lived a half century. Still, what matters now from now on is not what I don't do, but what I do do.
I need to be relieved from sins of omission. There is more I must do to fulfill God's plan of salvation in my life.
It will take much more than chatting about theology on this site. I am sure what matters in your life, and what matters in mine, is finding local Christians we can be near in a church. As long as it takes us to find a local congregation where we can feel at home and at peace with how they worship God.
[/QUOTE]
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I do not know "everything". If my tone or attitude is wrong, I apologize. I don't understand what you know about persons. Maybe you know something that I can't comprehend. I don't understand why you object to those words. Do you think they are outright wrong, or do you just prefer not to use them because they are not in the Bible? Or, are you seeking Pre-Nicene justification for the terms Trinity and persons, because you perhaps believe it must be there before you will accept it? I don't know what you are driving at? Do you prefer to learn from the ANF Ante-Nicene Fathers? By the way, I don't know anything about God's nature and constitution. How can any sinner understand the holiness of God. Anytime any of us would look at God, we all would know we're not Him. We only know we need God's mercy and the intercession of Jesus Christ the Son to bring us into peace with God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God bless you.[/QUOTE]
My apologies for any tone, as well. I deal with this subject constantly, and it is difficult enough in person. The internet is tough. And having 5 similar threads is challenging.
My aversion to person is because the F-S-HS are three something ELSEs than persons. With or without Sola Scriptura, the Trinity concept is incomplete.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I think you should avoid the personal language. I don't talk about you personally at any time, so why do you keep up bringing up the differences, if there are any, between you and me. I am attempting to find common ground with you. As for orthodoxy, my understanding at this point really is about orthodoxy, not Orthodoxy. I really have little experience and personal knowledge of the Eastern Orthodox Church. I have only been in Church services a few times. That is worth more than most of the reading I do. It really feels more true and more real like the presence of God the Holy Spirit, than in the dry pages of books. Even Orthodox books cannot substitute for the Divine Liturgy itself. The teaching is best by how the Church worships and prays and chants the Scriptures and prayers and hymns of the Church. I would suggest you may not like what I say sometimes, but unless you have ever been to a Orthodox Church, you don't know what you are missing. The more I am away from the Church, the more I miss the beauty of God's house. It is like heaven on earth. The place smells of true prayer. And I still need the sacraments. I have only progressed to confession. I have rid myself of the things I needed to say and confess about my sins. I am very unworthy of anything like Orthodoxy. So many in the Orthodox Church have lived such exemplary lives. In any case, I am sure I don't want to over idealize Orthodoxy. From experience and just common sense, just joining a church doesn't automatically remove all sin(s). It takes a constant prayer life struggle, and for more progress, better fasting. I have some difficulty actually fasting like I should. In any case I am sure God will bless you as you are a truth loving person and you will find peace with God. That you have already. When we find peace with God, we find more of the peace of God each new day. We are supposed to progress in grace and knowledge of our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ. It will take a whole life before we are ready to meet God. But we should be more all the more ready with each passing day. We should be forsaking all known sin each moment. We should learn from our mistakes. I hope I have learned what not to do. By now. I have lived a half century. Still, what matters now from now on is not what I don't do, but what I do do.
I need to be relieved from sins of omission. There is more I must do to fulfill God's plan of salvation in my life.
It will take much more than chatting about theology on this site. I am sure what matters in your life, and what matters in mine, is finding local Christians we can be near in a church. As long as it takes us to find a local congregation where we can feel at home and at peace with how they worship God.
[/QUOTE]
Augustine was by far my least favorite saint. I'm not interpolating from man to God.
The truth is in Rhema-Logos and others like ekporeuomai. By your above reasoning, I surmise you will reject the truth and cling to orthodoxy.
Maybe I shouldn't waste my time with those who already "know" everything about God's nature and constitution.[/quote]
I do not know "everything". If my tone or attitude is wrong, I apologize. I don't understand what you know about persons. Maybe you know something that I can't comprehend. I don't understand why you object to those words. Do you think they are outright wrong, or do you just prefer not to use them because they are not in the Bible? Or, are you seeking Pre-Nicene justification for the terms Trinity and persons, because you perhaps believe it must be there before you will accept it? I don't know what you are driving at? Do you prefer to learn from the ANF Ante-Nicene Fathers? By the way, I don't know anything about God's nature and constitution. How can any sinner understand the holiness of God. Anytime any of us would look at God, we all would know we're not Him. We only know we need God's mercy and the intercession of Jesus Christ the Son to bring us into peace with God the Father and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit. God bless you.[/QUOTE]
My apologies for any tone, as well. I deal with this subject constantly, and it is difficult enough in person. The internet is tough. And having 5 similar threads is challenging.
My aversion to person is because the F-S-HS are three something ELSEs than persons. With or without Sola Scriptura, the Trinity concept is incomplete.
Even Trinity Scholars don't use such passages for Trinity proof-texting. Hebrew's construct includes the usage of various plural nouns with singular verbs that are intemittently rendered with plural or singular pronouns. Elohim is one such example. It is a plural of immensity used as an intensifier, not a quantifier. Pluralis Excellentiae is the Latin term.
With all respect and graciousness, I don't think you're ready to handle this subject.
With all respect and graciousness, I don't think you're ready to handle this subject.
S
Scott, Scott, Scott... my Brother...
The modes of Sabellianism and the persons of Trinitarianism share the same deficiency of expression.
The modes of Sabellianism and the persons of Trinitarianism share the same deficiency of expression.
Essentially, all the above is simply to say, "Just because." It's not possible to reason with the unreasonable. I presented the ANF teachings with references, and can list ALL of them. You will simply say "Just because" regarding Trinity and person(s), denying the ANFs you have personally referred to. I'm wasting my time here.