Apostasy 101

[mailmandan]

I'm not against the way you worded that. There's plenty of space between doing works and having a holier-than-thou attitude.

Honestly, this next question is kind of a separate topic but do you consider it a holier-than-thou attitude if a Christian suggests he/she is likely to go to heaven at the same time they think their non-Christian friend is headed towards hell?

That's meant to be a friendly question, not argumentative.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I don't consider it to be holier-than-thou attitude to believe you are going to heaven because you placed your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation because He gets all the credit and their is no boasting for the believer. I also don't believe it's a holier-than-thou attitude to believe that someone's non-Christian friend is headed for hell for failing to believe because Jesus Himself said in clearly in John 3:18. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already.. If the friend makes it clear that he doesn't believe then why would we believe they are headed for heaven? It's not about credit for us based on the merits of our performance. It's about belief/unbelief.

 

[EleventhHour]

It is a Y/N answer. Which is it?

No sin threatens eternal security.
Sad you continue to challenge the cross.

 

[Noose]

I would say biased observation. Holy living involves works, yet we are not saved based on the merits of works which are produced from holy living. Believers should absolutely strive to live holy lives, which is part of our ongoing sanctification, but we must never fall into the trap of believing that we are "holier than thou" so based on that, the Lord will surely save me based on my performance, yet other believers fall short of my personal holy standard, so surely they won't be saved. This is where works salvation becomes a snare.

Not at all.

If judgement of all men is based on what they have done (deeds/works), why is salvation not of works?

You and many are confusing one thing, the bible clearly says we are not saved by our own works, but good deeds towards others are not our own works;
Matt 25:40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Jesus says those good works are not your own but His. These are the works that He prepared for you before the foundations of the world.

 

[mailmandan]

There are only two options:
A) a Christian is free to ignore Paul's warnings
B) a Christian should heed Paul's warnings

A Christian should absolutely heed Paul's warnings and if someone is truly a Christian, then why would they completely ignore Paul's warnings? NOSAS doctrine is full of straw man arguments. "Nominal" Christians should absolutely heed Paul's warnings, starting with 2 Corinthians 13:5.

 

[Chris1975]

No sin threatens eternal security.
Sad you continue to challenge the cross.

So EleventhHour says you are free to ignore Paul's warnings without any eternal consequences.

It's a license to do absolutely anything you want to. You could theoretically from this point in your life run the largest drug cartel, have a merry band of assassin's for hire, continue in adultery, pornography, thievery....and you will be granted access through the pearly gates. You are forever saved.

 

[Noose]

No sin threatens eternal security.
Sad you continue to challenge the cross.

But there's no eternal security, only those that persevere to the end will be victorious. And resting from your labors is only after you die.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

Q. What labor is this that God's people rest from when they die?

 

[Chris1975]

A Christian should absolutely heed Paul's warnings and if someone is truly a Christian, then why would they completely ignore Paul's warnings? NOSAS doctrine is full of straw man arguments. "Nominal" Christians should absolutely heed Paul's warnings, starting with 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Why only "Nominal" Christians?

 

[mailmandan]

Not at all.

If judgement of all men is based on what they have done (deeds/works), why is salvation not of works?

You and many are confusing one thing, the bible clearly says we are not saved by our own works, but good deeds towards others are not our own works;
Matt 25:40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Jesus says those good works are not your own but His. These are the works that He prepared for you before the foundations of the world.

This is a common passage of scripture that works-salvationists use (especially Roman Catholics) to try and prove that man is saved by works. YOU NEED TO DISCUSS THAT WITH CHRIS1975.

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture/scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc...

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. (James 2:14) Notice also how practicing righteousness and love for his brother is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Works-salvationists have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

 

[mailmandan]

Why only "Nominal" Christians?

I said a Christian should heed Paul's warnings as well. I was just pointing out that "nominal" Christians need to also heed Paul's warnings because not all warnings only apply to genuine Christians. People in the nosas camp seem to be naive to the fact that it's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians and the logic follows that all of Paul's letters are addressed to believers, so everyone in a group of professing believers must ALL be genuine believers. That would be like saying because the Pastor of a church (particularly a very large church) on Sunday morning greeted the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," this would mean that EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine believer.

 

[Chris1975]

I said a Christian should heed Paul's warnings as well. I was just pointing out that "nominal" Christians need to also heed Paul's warnings because not all warnings only apply to genuine Christians. People in the nosas camp seem to be naive to the fact that it's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians and the logic follows that all of Paul's letters are addressed to believers, so everyone in a group of professing believers must ALL be genuine believers. That would be like saying because the Pastor of a church (particularly a very large church) on Sunday morning greeted the congregation with, "good morning brothers and sisters in Christ," this would mean that EVERYONE who attended church that Sunday morning MUST be a genuine believer.

Ok. So both camps or real and nominal Christians should heed the warnings.

Why?

 

[mailmandan]

Ok. So both camps or real and nominal Christians should heed the warnings.

Why?

Because there are warnings that apply to "nominal" Christians who believe they are genuine Christians.

 

[John146]

But there's no eternal security, only those that persevere to the end will be victorious. And resting from your labors is only after you die.

Rev 14:
12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

Q. What labor is this that God's people rest from when they die?

In the tribulation, one must keep the commandments of God and keep the faith of Christ. One must endure to the end. This is not Church doctrine for the Church is no longer on the earth.

 

[EleventhHour]

So EleventhHour says you are free to ignore Paul's warnings without any eternal consequences.

It's a license to do absolutely anything you want to. You could theoretically from this point in your life run the largest drug cartel, have a merry band of assassin's for hire, continue in adultery, pornography, thievery....and you will be granted access through the pearly gates. You are forever saved.

Ya know... I know, you have to argue this to prove your own worthiness... I get it.

Paul states that those that argue grace is a license to sin, argue from a heart of disbelief.

I on the other hand am quite aware that my works do not achieve my salvation.

 

[Noose]

This is a common passage of scripture that works-salvationists use (especially Roman Catholics) to try and prove that man is saved by works. YOU NEED TO DISCUSS THAT WITH CHRIS1975.

After a casual reading of the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture/scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc...

All these scriptures you quoted can be summarized, "..we are saved by grace and not by anything we do.."
This is perfectly ok. God saved us according to His mercy and not what we did or even thought (which some of you attribute to belief).
A child (one year old or a new born) is saved even before they 'know' anything about Christ or do any 'righteous deed'. This is what it means we are saved by Grace and not what we do, but this grace applies to all men and not just a few, yet only those that abide in Christ will be considered saved.
Abiding in Christ is not thoughts but good deeds in obedience to Christ's command (John 15)

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance based salvation, but salvation based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

So it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. (James 2:14) Notice also how practicing righteousness and love for his brother is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Works-salvationists have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

Good works are a result of obedience. Christ commanded love for one another, He can not command if He is the one to impart. Obedience to a command is a choice and not a fruit- good example, Adam. Yes love has been referred to as a fruit, if you love, you'll love more and more but you choose to love or you chose to hate.

If Judgement is based on what a person has done (works), then salvation can not be based on what a person thinks but it is based on what a person does (deeds).

Rev 22: 12“Behold, I am coming soon, and My reward is with Me, to give to each one according to what he has done.

 

[Noose]

In the tribulation, one must keep the commandments of God and keep the faith of Christ. One must endure to the end. This is not Church doctrine for the Church is no longer on the earth.

We are in the great tribulation and the church MUST undergo (is undergoing) the pains of child birth.

Rev 14:
13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

What did the angel imply when he said "from this moment on"?

 

[Chris1975]

Because there are warnings that apply to "nominal" Christians who believe they are genuine Christians.

No what I meant was why should they heed?

 

[Noose]

Justification for all mankind

Rom 5:18So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.

Reconciliation for everything in heaven and earth including mankind and stones

Col 1:
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence. 19For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

Grace for all mankind

Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

Titus 3:3For at one time we too were foolish, disobedient, led astray, and enslaved to all sorts of desires and pleasures—living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

But, not all men are saved, why?
Only those that abide in Christ to the very end are considered victorious.

John 15:
9As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you. Remain in My love. 10If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and remain in His love. 11I have told you these things so that My joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.

12This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

The idea that if one thinks hard about Jesus they become the elect to whom grace applies or are reconciled with God or are justified is wrong. Christ's work on the cross justified all men, now it the duty of every man to abide in Christ's love by obeying His command to love. There's no other way to love but to work the good deeds.

 

[mailmandan]

Not at all.

If judgement of all men is based on what they have done (deeds/works), why is salvation not of works?

You and many are confusing one thing, the bible clearly says we are not saved by our own works, but good deeds towards others are not our own works;
Matt 25:40“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Jesus says those good works are not your own but His. These are the works that He prepared for you before the foundations of the world.

Just as I thought. Your argument is just another way of teaching salvation by works. Sugar coated double talk.

 

[Grandpa]

1. Did Adam have unbelief or did he disobey?

Adam was a little bit before the Old Covenant was broken and the New Covenant began.

He started out a little differently than we did.

2. If God puts obedience in a man's heart, where does disobedience come from?

Disobedience comes from your work and your understanding.

Your work and understanding always comes short of obedience.

Your only hope of obedience is the Holy Spirit.

3. IF God puts obedience in a man's heart, why did He command Adam knowing very well that He had not put obedience in Adam's heart?

Because God already made a way of Salvation for us.

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[Noose]

Adam was a little bit before the Old Covenant was broken and the New Covenant began.

He started out a little differently than we did.

Obedience or disobedience does not change with time, it is a choice one has to make towards a command.

Disobedience comes from your work and your understanding.

Your work and understanding always comes short of obedience.

Your only hope of obedience is the Holy Spirit.

Commands MUST be very clear from the issuer otherwise it isn't a command. They must be understandable. Disobedience or obedience does not come from my understanding. Obedience comes from my humility and the trust i have to the issuer and disobedience comes from arrogance.

Because God already made a way of Salvation for us.

Definately:

Heb 5:7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

He did not become a source of salvation for all who He had put obedience in them, that would be a little selective and would contradict the fact that God desires all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). So, therefore, obedience is a choice.