creationist debate?

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Reformyourself

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You mean something like this? (This was a blog of mine from a few years back on Quora.)

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light-years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance, the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion, it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So let's take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! God's word is perfect, it is we who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from God's POV, no man was there of course and with God, he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words, God lives in the past, present, and future all at the same time.



So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….................Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Sun's formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates, of course, are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the fifth day, God created the Sea animals/birds, and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY), God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal-like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So it's not necessarily either-or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven (SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).
The Lord is outside of time, above all...the ways of man. He even stopped time Joshua 10:13 🤫
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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Excuse me but I read my post I never said a thing about abraham being under law
Yes, but you are saying Abraham never knew Jesus {Yeshua} which in Hebrew means SALVATION, and I am saying Abraham did know whom his Salvation was, he knew it was the PROMISED SEED and that belief made him Righteous. Jesus told the Pharisees Abraham KNEW HIM. That is why I mentioned the Law, Abraham's Covenant was a Covenant of FAITH.......Not Law.

Abraham did know who his YESHUA [Salavation] was.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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The Lord is outside of time, above all...the ways of man. He even stopped time Joshua 10:13 🤫
That is correct, this is why he need not have a creator {in case any atheists are listening}. But God CREATED TIME as a construct for us. Thus its in the Universe at all times. God thus did not need to HURRY UP the Laws of Nature as many seem to say He did by BENDING the rules, that makes no sense, God lives in all times at once, thus 13.7 Billion years ago when He created the Universe via ordering it to come into being, He already lived in the future and as its completed ends. There is no reason for God to hurry up His creation. That would be like you or me trying to hurry up a football game when we already live in the future and know the outcome...SMILE. Like a sorta fast forward in real life, we would have to change the Laws of Nature to fast forward time, BUT we would have no need to if we already lived in the finished product. So the Creation laws were not tampered with. The Universe is 13.7 billion years old. God did not have to tamper with time.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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If reading days 1&2 then day 4, day 3 then day 5 & 6, is intriguing.

Be like this,

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
If your point is Day four came before day three, that is a miscalculation on many people because of the SEASONS. God created our Seasons when? Not via the Sun when it was created per se, but after the Moon and Earth collided and the Earth gained most of the mass of the Moon, which was then captured as our satellite, wherein out earth became STABILIZED at that point in time, the moon keeps us from wobbling and this gives us orderly days and seasons. NOW Reread that part and it fits.
 
Jun 10, 2019
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If your point is Day four came before day three, that is a miscalculation on many people because of the SEASONS. God created our Seasons when? Not via the Sun when it was created per se, but after the Moon and Earth collided and the Earth gained most of the mass of the Moon, which was then captured as our satellite, wherein out earth became STABILIZED at that point in time, the moon keeps us from wobbling and this gives us orderly days and seasons. NOW Reread that part and it fits.
The tilt of earth and its eccentric rotation around the sun is mostly what determines the seasons, the moon does have some impact on seasons but mainly it’s the tilt and orbit of earth.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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I was NEVER referring to the OT saints to begin with, sir.
I was referring to nations who did not know GOD...they also died before HIS physical coming and they had NEVER heard the GOSPEL...
I fear you do not understand what I am saying.
I am dropping this because I am so confused by yours and Gandalfś response to me...
Hi Miknik

Don’t get discouraged. We need to discuss God’s word and learn from one another.

Salvation was always through faith by the blood of the lamb (Hebrews 11). When Jesus died on the cross He became the Lamb but the road remains the same. Abraham got saved from a house where his father was a trader in idol statues. YHVH called him out of that situation and he became a Hebrew. Why would we think that YHVH could not do the same to other people in Biblical times? Like EG said, they all had the same starting point; first Adam and Eve and then Noah. There were no excuses, just like today there are very few people left on earth without access to God’s word.

If we look at civilizations through the ages it is easy to see that they all had the same starting point, something had to be sacrificed on an altar for redemption. It is not a coincidence, they had the truth and that is why the Bible tells us we go astray because of a lack of knowledge. The knowledge was there, they (and us) had to go and look for it and God would teach them (Holy Spirit).
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Romans 1 said they had no excuse.

OT people were not required to believe in Jesus for salvation. Abraham did not. yet he still had faith and was saved by that faith. ALL OT people had that same opportunity while here on earth. They do not get a second chance, if they did, Then it is only fair others do as well.
I have to disagree with that. Abraham knew Jesus, maybe not as the man Jesus but they knew Him and had conversation with Him because He is God.

David also knew Yeshua, etc.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Yes, but you are saying Abraham never knew Jesus {Yeshua} which in Hebrew means SALVATION, and I am saying Abraham did know whom his Salvation was, he knew it was the PROMISED SEED and that belief made him Righteous. Jesus told the Pharisees Abraham KNEW HIM. That is why I mentioned the Law, Abraham's Covenant was a Covenant of FAITH.......Not Law.

Abraham did know who his YESHUA [Salavation] was.
Why not read Hebrews 11, as well as Genesis 12 and 15, and tell us exactly what it says how Abraham showed faith.

Did he believe in Jesus's death burial and resurrection, like all of us now?

Or did he show faith in God by moving into the place God commanded him to, as well as faith that God will grant him numerous descendants?
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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Unless you are a flat earth enthusiast the common belief is that the earth spins on its axis once every 24 hours. The part of the earth
facing the Sun experiences Day and the other side experiences night. In this set up a vital componant for it to work is a Sun. In Genesis
the Sun doesnt show up until the fourth day. In fact the Moon and stars dont show until the fourth day either. This passage of scripture should be read both Poetically and Spiritually. The only literal message about it is that all creation,everything came from God in the beginning.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I have to disagree with that. Abraham knew Jesus, maybe not as the man Jesus but they knew Him and had conversation with Him because He is God.

David also knew Yeshua, etc.
They Knew YHWH, They did not knwo YHWH was going to become man, Suffer greatly and die a horrific death for their sins.

This is the hidden mystery Paul spoke of.

The hidden mystery that needed to stay hidden so Satan could be the one who was found to be the guilty one.. If Satan Knew Jesus came to die. He would have done all he could to prevent it.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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They Knew YHWH, They did not knwo YHWH was going to become man, Suffer greatly and die a horrific death for their sins.

This is the hidden mystery Paul spoke of.

The hidden mystery that needed to stay hidden so Satan could be the one who was found to be the guilty one.. If Satan Knew Jesus came to die. He would have done all he could to prevent it.
When reading Psalm 22.... they knew :)

God bless my friend
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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The tilt of earth and its eccentric rotation around the sun is mostly what determines the seasons, the moon does have some impact on seasons but mainly it’s the tilt and orbit of earth.
I didn't just say this, I studied it in depth brother. Google "How does the moon affect the earth? Institutes of Physics" and you will see an article that says not much would change TO START WITH...........but after 26,000 years the earth would eventually begin to WOBBLE in a very erratic manner and we would lose our seasons,, well, of course, that means that without the original CLASH of the earth and moon and thus the moon becoming our STALIZIG SATELLITE the earth would be uninhabitable to humans right now.

Turbulent future
So, wiping out the Moon would certainly have some good, bad and ugly consequences straight away, but hardly apocalyptic. The biggest impact would take time to manifest: destabilising the Earth’s rotation. Today, Earth’s axis is tilted at 23.4° with respect to our orbit around the Sun. But there is a slight wobble in this spin cycle. The wobble is like the one you see with a spinning top, slowly making the tip trace a circle as the toy spins rapidly around. For the Earth, it’s a rather slow wobble, taking around 26,000 years to go full circle. It’s also quite gentle, moving the Earth’s axis by just 2.4 degrees. But without the Moon to stabilise it, this wobble would become erratic and extreme.

Sometimes, the Earth’s axis would point straight up and down at right angles to the Earth’s orbit of the Sun. In this scenario, seasons would be a thing of the past, and night and day would be equally long all year round. At other times, the Earth would tilt all the way over and lie on its side in relation to its orbit around the Sun. This would mean the poles would be burning hot and the equator freezing cold.

In effect, removing the Moon would spell extreme climate change. There would be huge differences between temperatures and daylight throughout the year, and ice ages would hit different parts of the world every few thousand years. Lucky for us then that the Moon is going nowhere any time soon.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I told you, I did my research before I wrote the blog above, as I always do.

Now, go to YOUTUBE and type in "What if we lost the Moon?" And you can watch 400 plus mile an hour winds etc. etc. it shows what would happen.

As I stated, there would be NO SEASONS, and thus that is what Day 4 brought us, a STABELIZZING SATELLITE in the moon. Amen.
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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If your point is Day four came before day three, that is a miscalculation on many people because of the SEASONS. God created our Seasons when? Not via the Sun when it was created per se, but after the Moon and Earth collided and the Earth gained most of the mass of the Moon, which was then captured as our satellite, wherein out earth became STABILIZED at that point in time, the moon keeps us from wobbling and this gives us orderly days and seasons. NOW Reread that part and it fits.
A collision between the moon and earth would have destroyed both. The theory is not consistent with actual physics. Check out Spike Psarris' work on YouTube.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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You mean something like this? (This was a blog of mine from a few years back on Quora.)

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light-years away, so we would have to be naive to think the universe is 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance, the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first Day (to be hot) was the Evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the Morning ( The stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion, it lasted from 13.7 Billion BC until 4.5 Billion BC (9.2 Billion years) when the Sun & Earth were formed. So let's take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1, In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God, then you had Inflation, followed by Afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! God's word is perfect, it is we who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at Creation from God's POV, no man was there of course and with God, he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words, God lives in the past, present, and future all at the same time.



So we had the Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….................Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the Earth & the Sun's formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the Third day (period of time) then on the Fourth day it seems God Set the Seasons or placed the Moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His Holy Word and Science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates, of course, are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the fifth day, God created the Sea animals/birds, and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 million to 400 million years or so. On the Sixth Day around 300–350 Million BC God created the Land Animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6TH DAY), God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back further. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around X Number of years, I never said Animal-like men weren’t around, I stated Human Beings were created 6000 years ago when God placed His spirit in us and thus we are immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing because Scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “Human Beings” with powerful intellects.

On the Seventh Day God rested, which only means He ceased Creating the Heavens/Earth/Mankind/Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 Billion years ago. So it's not necessarily either-or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heaven (SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).



Excellent way of putting it. But speaking in terms of Relativity, You must always keep in mind. Those who will oppose you, just walked out of their cave while holding their club in 1 hand and woman in the other. Take no offense from the responses because it's them, who are offended, by knowledge.
 
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1 poster claims their view of the events of Creation had changed after visiting Anderson's Ark and Creation museum. You know, the very place where Bill Nye (the Science Guy), walked Anderson around like a poodle trying to nip at his ankles.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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A collision between the moon and earth would have destroyed both. The theory is not consistent with actual physics. Check out Spike Psarris' work on YouTube.
They were the same size and the earth thus captured most of the debris/mass and the moon became diminished. And no, a glancing blow would not have destroyed both.

God is after ll in charge.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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I do not think you understand what we are saying
I understand what you are saying...you are referring to OT saints and referring to paradise as where these were and somehow separate from those who were in prison
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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Excellent way of putting it. But speaking in terms of Relativity, You must always keep in mind. Those who will oppose you, just walked out of their cave while holding their club in 1 hand and woman in the other. Take no offense from the responses because it's them, who are offended, by knowledge.
I have been called to Eschatologyy for 35 years, so I ponder these things more deeply than others it seems.

The Book of Revelation is easy to me, some make it way more complicated than they need to. The Old Testament has all the CODES that help us understand the huge ENCODED BOOK.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Aaah finally. 😊 So what makes you think the days are longer than 24 hrs?
116 days 18 hours is one earth day right now on Venus....can anyone prove by the text of Genesis that an evening and morning = one 24 hour period?

Once God stopped the rotation of the earth (Joshua)

Once God reversed the rotation of the earth (Isaiah)

Point being....NO one can prove one 24 hour period per creation day in Genesis by the text alone and an evening and a morning COULD HAVE BEEN 24 hours or 10 million (earth years now) and still be ONE EVENING AND ONE MORNING

Just saying.....to make a fair point!