Is Jesus New Covenant or New "Law"?

[oyster67]

Do you know when the Old Covenant was instituted and which people group was it instituted with?

It was with Israel and it started from Exodus 24. That chapter showed the nation of Israel accepting the requirements of the Old Covenant.

The rest of the OT tells us one thing, Israel never followed the requirements and as a result, curses and disasters kept coming to them.

Jesus's death on the cross made possible the New Covenant to be made with Israel.

But currently, the nation Israel never did accept the requirements of the New Covenant, which required them to believe that Jesus is the promised Son of God (John 20:31)

So, currently, the New Covenant has not been established with them yet. But after Jesus returns for Israel in his 2nd coming, we are told that the entire nation would accept Jesus as that Son of God, that is when it will be established (Hebrews 8:8-12, Romans 11:26-27)

The Old Law condemns all sinners, not just Jewish sinners.

3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Guojing]

The Old Law condemns all sinners, not just Jewish sinners.

3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

That is true. But I was referring to the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant had the Law but it was not written on Jewish hearts.

The New Covenant will continue to have the Law, but the main difference is that it will be written on Jewish hearts.

Us non Jews were not under the Old Covenant, neither will we be part of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8).

 

[Blik]

God does not change, but His dealings with mankind change.

Are you claiming that the Old Covenant is still valid and in force? If so, you are promoting A LIE.

To say that scripture is not truth is a lie, not the claim that scripture is truth.

I certain am claiming those scripture passages are truth. All scripture is valid and in force. It is valid and in force that there are things in the old covenant that are obsolete, of no use any more. Many things that were commanded in the old testament are obsolete and of no use any more because the Holy Spirit guides us now, not following secular type commands.

For example, in the old covenant we are told that there are blessings to be had through obedience and curses through disobedience. However, those blessings do not include salvation, as salvation is only through Christ. Find the fruits of the spirit to validate the old covenant in the new testament.

 

[phil36]

That is true. But I was referring to the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant had the Law but it was not written on Jewish hearts.

The New Covenant will continue to have the Law, but the main difference is that it will be written on Jewish hearts.

Us non Jews were not under the Old Covenant, neither will we be part of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8).

Hi Guojing,

For a brief moment I thought that we good agree on something. Well, that was until I read the last sentence... We nearly had agreement .


If you go back a few verses from Heb 8:8 we read this:

v6) But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Jesus is now our mediator (God Himself) That is the basis of how we can approach God. Through Christ who now mediates the New Covenant (v13a). He has replaced the old covenant (Mosaic) where Moses was the mediator then the priest. In Heb 8 we that that Jesus is not only Our High priest but also High Prophet (One Like Moses, Deut 18:15; Acts 3:22ff etc) having replaced the old covenant and making it obsolete (v13b).


Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant which is what grants us access directly to God no longer through Moses or priests. Secondly this New covenant was the fulfillment of the Promises made by God himself in the OT (Heb 8:6c) and the promises fulfilled are then given in verses 8 thru 12.

This is why it is important for you to understand that by denying that Jesus is talking to you, and that His new covenant is not for you - you are actually denying what Jesus really achieved and fulfilled for us. It's a serious error. It is something you should really consider carefully and prayerful. And I mean that sincerely and with love.


Anyhow it's late here and hard to think and write (i'm terrible at it at the best of times lol). Enjoy the rest of your evening and I pray you give it some thought.

 

[Nehemiah6]

To say that scripture is not truth is a lie, not the claim that scripture is truth.

Have I ever said that Scripture is not truth? But you have said that the Old Covenant is still valid. Which is a blatant lie. It appears that you are thoroughly confused about the difference between Scripture and the Old Covenant (which is contained in four books of the Bible) but has no force after the one great sacrifice of Christ. So you need to make up your mind as to who is greater -- Moses or Christ.

 

[Nehemiah6]

She is not promoting a lie.

She is definitely promoting a lie. Here are her exact words: "If God gave "temporary" guidance, not based on His eternal principles, then it would make His scripture telling us God doesn't change, and that God is eternal not the truth."

So she has twisted everything around and tried to equate the eternality of God with the temporary existence of the Old Covenant (the Law of Moses). I even quoted Scripture from Hebrews to show her that God found fault with the Old Covenant, but that was simply dismissed as though it has no authority. So Blik has been on an UNENDING CRUSADE to keep the Old Covenant alongside the New Covenant, in violation of the words of God and Christ. That is a very serious matter, since this is exactly what the Judaizers were doing while Paul was alive, and he had to expose their errors over and over again. But some people never learn.

Those who reject Jesus' Atonement are still under the condemnation of that Old Law. It reveals their sin. They are still under it's condemnation to this very day.

Since the Old Covenant is null and void, those who reject the atoning work of Christ reject the Gospel. Which has nothing to do with the Old Covenant.

 

[Guojing]

Hi Guojing,

For a brief moment I thought that we good agree on something. Well, that was until I read the last sentence... We nearly had agreement .


If you go back a few verses from Heb 8:8 we read this:

v6) But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Jesus is now our mediator (God Himself) That is the basis of how we can approach God. Through Christ who now mediates the New Covenant (v13a). He has replaced the old covenant (Mosaic) where Moses was the mediator then the priest. In Heb 8 we that that Jesus is not only Our High priest but also High Prophet (One Like Moses, Deut 18:15; Acts 3:22ff etc) having replaced the old covenant and making it obsolete (v13b).


Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant which is what grants us access directly to God no longer through Moses or priests. Secondly this New covenant was the fulfillment of the Promises made by God himself in the OT (Heb 8:6c) and the promises fulfilled are then given in verses 8 thru 12.

This is why it is important for you to understand that by denying that Jesus is talking to you, and that His new covenant is not for you - you are actually denying what Jesus really achieved and fulfilled for us. It's a serious error. It is something you should really consider carefully and prayerful. And I mean that sincerely and with love.


Anyhow it's late here and hard to think and write (i'm terrible at it at the best of times lol). Enjoy the rest of your evening and I pray you give it some thought.

The Body of Christ is neither the House of Israel nor the House of Judah.

That is my basic premise.

Our sins are forgiven now by being part of Christ's body, not because of the New Covenant.

Israel have to wait until the 2nd return of Christ, before they receive their forgiveness of sins (Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11:26-27, Hebrews 8:8-12)

But I understand that many Christians love to take promises made to Israel and make them apply to us. And the interesting thing is that they still insist that they reject "replacement theology".

 

[Blik]

Have I ever said that Scripture is not truth? But you have said that the Old Covenant is still valid. Which is a blatant lie. It appears that you are thoroughly confused about the difference between Scripture and the Old Covenant (which is contained in four books of the Bible) but has no force after the one great sacrifice of Christ. So you need to make up your mind as to who is greater -- Moses or Christ.

It is not me who says it, it is scripture that you are calling a blatant liar. Scripture tells us of some things being obsolete.

As a Christian, you speak with words of an atheist. blatant liar indeed. Not that you believe scripture tells you differently than it tells me, but that I am a liar!!!!! Wow.

I will put you on ignore, as being a non-christian.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Answer: There is a difference between faulty and unfulfilled

My thoughts exactly. The reason why I stated that was because member #brighthouse98 told me that the covenant was faulty, and he/she also stated the words Covenant and Law were interchangeable, hence he/she essentially decided that the Law was faulty, and I told him/her if the Law had been so faulty it had to be removed, it would make the Lawmaker (God) a lier, who established good and evil WITH THE LAW. (@brighthouse98 )

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Those who reject Jesus' Atonement are still under the condemnation of that Old Law.

Wait, sir. You mean "Old law" or "Old covenant?"

Are you claiming that the Old Covenant is still valid and in force? If so, you are promoting A LIE.

The fact that people think old "law" was destroyed when only old "COVENANT" was the one destroyed was the reason for this thread.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

Us non Jews were not under the Old Covenant, neither will we be part of the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:8).

For a brief moment I thought that we good agree on something. Well, that was until I read the last sentence... We nearly had agreement

The Body of Christ is neither the House of Israel nor the House of Judah.

I see what this is about.

Here, I show you the link between the house of Israel and non-Jews of Body of Christ:

​

Isaiah 14:1​

And the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and they shall rest on their land: and the stranger shall be added to them, yea, shall be added to the house of Jacob.​

Isaiah 14:2​

And the Gentiles shall take them, and bring them into their place: and they shall inherit them, and they shall be multiplied upon the land for servants and handmaidens: and they that took them captives shall become captives to them; and they that had lordship over them shall be under their rule.​

Matthew 23:37-38​

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!​

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.​

There seems to be a fact that Gentiles are, through the Crucifixion, supposed to be added to the house of Israel.

THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. (We may need separate thread on this one.)

 

[Guojing]

I see what this is about.

Here, I show you the link between the house of Israel and non-Jews of Body of Christ:

​

Isaiah 14:1​

And the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and they shall rest on their land: and the stranger shall be added to them, yea, shall be added to the house of Jacob.​

Isaiah 14:2​

And the Gentiles shall take them, and bring them into their place: and they shall inherit them, and they shall be multiplied upon the land for servants and handmaidens: and they that took them captives shall become captives to them; and they that had lordship over them shall be under their rule.​

Matthew 23:37-38​

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!​

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.​

There seems to be a fact that Gentiles are, through the Crucifixion, supposed to be added to the house of Israel.

THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. (We may need another thread on this one.)

If we are indeed added to the house of Israel, then we will have to wait until Christ returns for Israel, before receiving our forgiveness of sins, as Paul stated in Romans 11:25-27, and also said by Peter in Acts 3:19-21.

That would contradict what Paul teaches us in Ephesians 1:7, and in many other places.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

If we are indeed added to the house of Israel, then we will have to wait until Christ returns for Israel, before receiving our forgiveness of sins, as Paul stated in Romans 11:25-27, and also said by Peter in Acts 3:19-21.

What I was saying is that "house of Israel" does not pertain to only the physical descendants of Israel under Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the king of the Jews, and king of Judah was supposed to rule over all Israel. (1 Kings 12:19-20)

So I understand your notion that the house and body are different, but I think, as we're added to the Church, the temple, we're added as well to the house of Israel.

 

[Guojing]

What I was saying is that "house of Israel" does not pertain to only the physical descendants of Israel under Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the king of the Jews, and king of Judah was supposed to rule over all Israel. (1 Kings 12:19-20)

So I understand your notion that the house and body are different, but I think, as we're added to the Church, the temple, we're added as well to the house of Israel.

Yes, this idea that the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel" is a very commonly held doctrine by many.

But as I stated, do you also hold that we will only receive forgiveness of all our sins, when Christ return, or when we stay faithful to the end of our lives?

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

then we will have to wait until Christ returns for Israel

this idea that the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel" is a very commonly held doctrine

And "FOR ISRAEL", and not the house itself. (House of Israel is still house of Israel even w/o Israel or the tribes.)

Romans 11:7​

What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,​

Romans 11:26​

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

Rev 7:4​

And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel: ​

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

do you also hold that we will only receive forgiveness of all our sins, when Christ return

No I do not. I have not even mentioned that, in fact, but this is a biblical fact:

Isaiah 14:1​

And the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and they shall rest on their land: and the stranger shall be added to them, yea, shall be added to the house of Jacob​

Zechariah 14:2​

And I will gather all the Gentiles to Jerusalem to war​

Because of Zech 14:2, it is a reminder that Israel, in the past, was chosen to BRING JUDGEMENT on the Gentiles. But because Jesus gives now salvation to even Gentiles, Gentiles then are those OUTSIDE of his house. God's house. And that is the temple of God, the Church:

Isaiah 5:7
For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Juda his beloved plant: I expected it to bring forth judgment, and it brought forth iniquity; and not righteousness, but a cry.

 

[Guojing]

No I do not. I have not even mentioned that, in fact, but this is a biblical fact:

Isaiah 14:1​

And the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and they shall rest on their land: and the stranger shall be added to them, yea, shall be added to the house of Jacob​

Zechariah 14:2​

And I will gather all the Gentiles to Jerusalem to war​

Because of Zech 14:2, it is a reminder that Israel, in the past, was chosen to BRING JUDGEMENT on the Gentiles. But because Jesus gives now salvation to even Gentiles, Gentiles then are those OUTSIDE of his house. God's house. And that is the temple of God, the Church:

But Israel sins will only be forgiven at the 2nd coming. (Romans 11:26-27)

So if you believe you are Israel, you don’t thInk that deal also applies to you?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

A proper understanding of law and gospel is what is needed to clear this up. Both covenants contained both law and gospel. Law is command to do something or punishment will follow, gospel is promise of God. In the old covenant you know the law that was commanded but less known is the Gospel portions, which was fulfilled in Christ and there is more fulfillment yet to come. In the new covenant the two commands basically are believe and repent, and there is gospel that Jesus came to pay the price for sin so that we who believe and repent will receive the promise of Salvation.

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

So I expressed I did not mean it as a replacement theology because Israel's priests were ministers of the Church from the beginning. In other words, Israel reflected the future in Christ with all 12 tribes in some way. @Guojing

THIS IS NOT A REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY. (We may need separate thread on this one.)

 

[pumpkinbread1567]

But Israel sins will only be forgiven at the 2nd coming. (Romans 11:26-27)

​

So if you believe you are Israel

Let me clear this suppositions about me. I NEVER said I believe I was Israel.

And "FOR ISRAEL", and not the house itself. (House of Israel is still house of Israel even w/o Israel or the tribes.

But more importantly, where did you get this idea?

Israel sins will only be forgiven at the 2nd coming

. (Romans 11:26-27)

How do you interpret Romans 11:26-27 to mean "at the 2nd coming"?