50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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ewq1938 said:
Nope, scripture places the resurrection and rapture when the second coming commences. I doubt there will be 7 seconds between the events.
As to a thief in the night, the point is there is NO IMMEDIATE WARNING when he strikes. The same will be true at the Second Advent. There will be NO IMMEDIATE WARNING.
But, of course, when He comes, it will be quite a show.
I'd be interested in those "many things".
Nope, scripture places the resurrection and rapture when the second coming commences. I doubt there will be 7 seconds between the events.
As to a thief in the night, the point is there is NO IMMEDIATE WARNING when he strikes. The same will be true at the Second Advent. There will be NO IMMEDIATE WARNING.
But, of course, when He comes, it will be quite a show.
I'd be interested in those "many things".
E
To a child of God who knows prophecy and prophetic events. It will not come as a thief in the night. They will actually know when it will occur
Now the rapture being pre or mid trib. No one could know the hour because there are absolutely no signs.
One question I have is when did the bema seat judgment occur. I mean you have the rapture. the judgment, and the giving of Crowns and the robes of righteousness and rewards. And then the training and return to earth all happening in a split second.
Now the rapture being pre or mid trib. No one could know the hour because there are absolutely no signs.
One question I have is when did the bema seat judgment occur. I mean you have the rapture. the judgment, and the giving of Crowns and the robes of righteousness and rewards. And then the training and return to earth all happening in a split second.
I know that now, but you see, I used to be one of the foolish virgins, and thought I was SAVED by my infant baptism and the fact that I attended Church regularly. Sitting on a pew, does not SAVE you, and neither does being Baptized as an infant.
Hear is the Baptism that SAVES a person, and it involves NO WATER.
1 Corinthians 12:13 (HCSB)
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body
—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Now before we go any further, PLEASE EXPLAIN in Detail, what you mean by: worthy of being raptured.
If you alter your view to assume that the DOTL/70th week begins in heaven when the Lamb takes the scroll (NECESSARILY occurring practically immediately after the rapture)....then all the prophecies match perfectly and truly no man knows the day or the hour.
It would also match the Jewish wedding model, as it is by the express discretionary will of the Father Alone Who decides the time has come on for the Son to Rapture the bride. This also concatenates with the doctrine of the imminency of the rapture.
The correct model of prophecy eliminates all errors, omissions, additions and conflicts. Seriously it really does. And there is only one correct model. Seriously there's only one....
It would also match the Jewish wedding model, as it is by the express discretionary will of the Father Alone Who decides the time has come on for the Son to Rapture the bride. This also concatenates with the doctrine of the imminency of the rapture.
The correct model of prophecy eliminates all errors, omissions, additions and conflicts. Seriously it really does. And there is only one correct model. Seriously there's only one....
How will they know?
The key words are "day or hour". Even knowing when the trib begins, only tells us what year it will end.
Well, I disagree with your last sentence. But to answer your question, the bema will occur when Christ sets up His Millennial kingdom when He returns at the Second Advent. And that would be the appropriate time for the rewards to the faithful believers.
Actually, it makes no sense for Jesus to hold the bema in heaven. This will be an event that the whole world should and will witness. It only makes sense that the King sets up His kingdom and then distributes rewards.
The key words are "day or hour". Even knowing when the trib begins, only tells us what year it will end.
Well, I disagree with your last sentence. But to answer your question, the bema will occur when Christ sets up His Millennial kingdom when He returns at the Second Advent. And that would be the appropriate time for the rewards to the faithful believers.
Actually, it makes no sense for Jesus to hold the bema in heaven. This will be an event that the whole world should and will witness. It only makes sense that the King sets up His kingdom and then distributes rewards.
Even knowing WHEN the Trib begins, doesn't help in determining either the DAY or the HOUR of Christ's return. The only thing that could be determined would be the year.
However, reading about the first 4 seal judgments (4 horsemen of the apocalypse) it could be argued that those things are already in play. So it's not possible to pin any kind of "day or hour" that Christ will return. At best, all that could be known would be the year.
I don't see how the wedding model has any relevance to a pretrib rapture. The point was to be ready for when Christ comes (Second Advent). And that's the problem. Pretribbers do not grasp what "coming" actually refers to. In verses that speak of the Second Advent, pretribbers only think "pretrib rapture" when Jesus comes in the air. So 2 Thess 2:1 doesn't make sense to them.
No, not "one model" at all. Just one truth.
And the truth is this: no rapture verse (you pick any one you prefer) says raptured believers go to heaven. Fact.
However, reading about the first 4 seal judgments (4 horsemen of the apocalypse) it could be argued that those things are already in play. So it's not possible to pin any kind of "day or hour" that Christ will return. At best, all that could be known would be the year.
I don't see how the wedding model has any relevance to a pretrib rapture. The point was to be ready for when Christ comes (Second Advent). And that's the problem. Pretribbers do not grasp what "coming" actually refers to. In verses that speak of the Second Advent, pretribbers only think "pretrib rapture" when Jesus comes in the air. So 2 Thess 2:1 doesn't make sense to them.
No, not "one model" at all. Just one truth.
And the truth is this: no rapture verse (you pick any one you prefer) says raptured believers go to heaven. Fact.
E
Well lets see. the saw the AOD 3.5 years before
They see all the things God said would happen in the great trib (IE all the judgments)
ie. there will be many signs.. so we can know.
Actually we are told how many days it will be..
I cant agree with this, When we see the people return. they return already having recieved their rewards. We are even told in the scene when Jesus opens the first seal. they are already their laying their crowns at the feet.
They see all the things God said would happen in the great trib (IE all the judgments)
ie. there will be many signs.. so we can know.
Actually we are told how many days it will be..
I cant agree with this, When we see the people return. they return already having recieved their rewards. We are even told in the scene when Jesus opens the first seal. they are already their laying their crowns at the feet.
FreeGrace2 said:
How will they know?
You know I was referring to "the day or hour". Your "answer" doesn't address that. The best anyone could know would be the year, IF IF IF the start of the Trib can be determined.
So, let me ask you; given the first 4 horsemen and the 4 seals, how exactly will anyone be able to determine the start of any of them? Just the first one is too vague to be able to determine the "start date".
Oh, yeah? Explain it, please.
What do you mean by "when we see the people return"? Please explain.
Explain who is "receiving rewards".
You really think the "24 elders" represent raptured believers? Based on what clear evidence? Not just someone's opinion.
How will they know?
You know I was referring to "the day or hour". Your "answer" doesn't address that. The best anyone could know would be the year, IF IF IF the start of the Trib can be determined.
So, let me ask you; given the first 4 horsemen and the 4 seals, how exactly will anyone be able to determine the start of any of them? Just the first one is too vague to be able to determine the "start date".
Oh, yeah? Explain it, please.
What do you mean by "when we see the people return"? Please explain.
Explain who is "receiving rewards".
You really think the "24 elders" represent raptured believers? Based on what clear evidence? Not just someone's opinion.
E
Start at the AOD.
How many DAYS after the AOD is said the return of the lord?
Rev 5: 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”
How many DAYS after the AOD is said the return of the lord?
Rev 5: 8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made [d]us kings[e] and priests to our God;
And [f]we shall reign on the earth.”
FreeGrace2 said:
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.
Please address my post about 2 Thess 2:1-3. That's the key to the whole thing.
Like I said, it has NOTHING to do with a rapture.
So, since you disagree, please explain how "will be like" is a reference to the rapture?
While you're at it, remember that parables were given to those with ears that aren't hearing. People who weren't interested in what Jesus was saying.
Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand any of them. Jesus had to explain all of them to His disciples.
So trying to use a parable to illustrate any doctrine is doomed to failure. They weren't meant to be understood.
And, not only that, but the parable of the 10 virgins has to be highly spiritualized to make it a rapture teaching.
When someone spiritualizes any verse or passage, they are able to say whatever they want to say about the verse/passage, and it can't be proven or refuted.
If Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and THEN takes them back up to heaven (the big U-turn), there would be a verse that plainly says so.
But, there isn't any such verse. So there's no big U-turn.
Plus, 2 Thess 2:1-3 places the "gathering" or rapture at the 'coming of the Lord', a phrase for the Second Advent.
The 10 virgins have NOTHING to do with a rapture. It's a parable. And one that is being "spiritualized" in order to try to defend a pretrib rapture.
Please address my post about 2 Thess 2:1-3. That's the key to the whole thing.
Like I said, it has NOTHING to do with a rapture.
So, since you disagree, please explain how "will be like" is a reference to the rapture?
While you're at it, remember that parables were given to those with ears that aren't hearing. People who weren't interested in what Jesus was saying.
Even Jesus' own disciples didn't understand any of them. Jesus had to explain all of them to His disciples.
So trying to use a parable to illustrate any doctrine is doomed to failure. They weren't meant to be understood.
And, not only that, but the parable of the 10 virgins has to be highly spiritualized to make it a rapture teaching.
When someone spiritualizes any verse or passage, they are able to say whatever they want to say about the verse/passage, and it can't be proven or refuted.
If Jesus resurrects/raptures believers and THEN takes them back up to heaven (the big U-turn), there would be a verse that plainly says so.
But, there isn't any such verse. So there's no big U-turn.
Plus, 2 Thess 2:1-3 places the "gathering" or rapture at the 'coming of the Lord', a phrase for the Second Advent.
I hope e.g. does not mind if I field this line drive.
VERY EASY TO FIELD.
Zechariah 14:5 (TLB)
5 You will escape through that valley, for it will reach across to the city gate. Yes, you will escape as your people did long centuries ago from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah, and the Lord my God shall come, and all his saints and angels with him.
Mid-Trib is out, because we know the DAY.
Post-Trib is out, because we know the DAY, the peace treaty will END.
Pre-Trib is the only DATE the RAPTURE can happen when NO ONE WILL KNOW.
Matthew 24:36 (TLB)
36 But no one knows the date and hour when the end will be—not even the angels. No, nor even God’s Son. Only the Father knows.
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Well, you're going to have to refresh my memory on your abbreviations. Ancient of Days? What?
I don't see anything here about "AOD". Or about any number of DAYS either.
What I do see is the fact that these believers are still waiting to co-reign with Christ in v.10. That will occur when Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent.
I don't see anything here about "AOD". Or about any number of DAYS either.
What I do see is the fact that these believers are still waiting to co-reign with Christ in v.10. That will occur when Jesus returns to earth at the Second Advent.
Actually the starting point is the "revealing" of the man of sin. This occurs at the very start of the 70th week of Daniel and opening of the first seal of Revelation 6.
The son of perdition is "revealed" on the world political scene (but more importantly to Israel and angels as well) as he makes a 7yr covenant with Israel.
The Holy Spirit HAD been "restraining" the man of sin......but no longer. The wrath of God and the Lamb has now come upon the earth.
The son of perdition is "revealed" on the world political scene (but more importantly to Israel and angels as well) as he makes a 7yr covenant with Israel.
The Holy Spirit HAD been "restraining" the man of sin......but no longer. The wrath of God and the Lamb has now come upon the earth.